Ti58
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That still makes Kris, Susie and Ralsei Low 7-C.
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DELTARUNE; Chapter 3 & 4 !!!SPOILER!!! Discussion Thread
- Thread starter ShockingPsychic
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Eden_Warlock99
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Is Giga Queen a regular Darkner? What even is it really? We already know it's stronger than the NEO body whose powers come from hopes and dreams of a Lightner and Queen's staff even implied it would make her stronger than the Knight.
Ti58
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I don't think Queen's staff implied that.
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And?
It's called growing in power, something that happens in videogames. I don't want to deal with another case of "NOOOOO PLAYABLES CANNOT SCALE TO BOSSES BECAUSE THEY DON'T MATCH THE VIBES!", we had a 17 pages long thread to remove this mindset from Pokémon, and Deltarune being the new case of this isn't something I like ngl.
Eden_Warlock99
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The NEO body being made from a Darkner is clearly flowery language of it being a MS Paint drawing in the LW, this shouldn't make it like Gerson remotely to be fair.
Qurbonboev
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Never took Multi-Solar System Dark Fountain(let alone Fun Gang) seriously.
We are highly likely still getting Multi-city Block and high-hypersonic Fun Gang, which is more than enough. Though it will require @Edutyn to fix several errors in calc
Ghengiroo115
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Part of me doubts they were referring to Giga Queen as it already existed before the Fun Gang even got to her palace. They might’ve been talking about Queen having Noelle as a peon or, or perhaps Queen’s new kingdom after creating more Dark Worlds.
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8-A fun gang means they're gonna be Madness Combat matchup victims unfortunately.
Eden_Warlock99
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The Fun Gang still used the magic they get from the fountain to beat the Titan though, and like, Jackenstein is just a regular Darkner with literally nothing special, and was still a major obstacle to the same gang that went toe-to-toe with the Titan, so ehh
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I don't think that the hype from a peon really overrules what the purpose of a fountain is ngl.
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also considering Jackenstein's fight gimmick (and with Toby nerfing his fight several times now) it's very likely Jackenstein was intended to be beaten on a first try. He's probably not that big of a threat story-wise, all things considered.
Eden_Warlock99
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We're not saying the other major boss besides the Titan from CH4 is game mechanics, come on.
This is starting to sound a lot like the Trainers can't scale to Legendaries thing
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Saying that Jackenstein is a Major Boss is the same as saying that Napstablook, Muffet or Tasque Manager are.
No? If anything, it's the opposite as there it's the fodders who can't scale to the playables, and not the other way around.
Eden_Warlock99
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But the main difference is that we can't say the Fun Gang just got a power boost before fighting the Titan like we can with Photoshop Flowey, Kris at the start of the Ch4 is the same as the one that fought the Titan. Same with Susie, and same with Ralsei.
I mean we're placing the Titan on a pedestal that has been contradicted before (No matter how special Gerson or Ralsei are, they still can't exist or have any powers without the fountain), and worse we're using that pedestal to put it above how strong it's been shown to be.
Qurbonboev
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Fountain give Fun Gang magic and Stat Boost. But it's the Soul Light that allows them to beat it. Without Soul Fun Gang is realistically losing to Titan no matter what
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No. The 9-A stuff is from Berdly, and that's a casual feat on top of that.
LVs.
We prioritize the main bosses over the minor ones in scaling. If the final boss is Low 2-C (random tier I just gave) and has a lot of hype from the lore/narrative over that, we don't make the other bosses also that tier if they have no business being that strong just because they're "close enough" prior to other necessary grinding.
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They still can damage it, and take blows from it though. They absolutely do scale, even if not stronger.
Since when beating is a requirement of scaling now lol.
Qurbonboev
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I think I didn't make my point clearly. I agree that Fun Gang should scaled similar to Titan(realistically little bit lower).
My point was that Fun Gang can beat Dark Fountain level enemies, even though Dark Fountains themselves are source of most of their power, due to having Soul.
We had Jevil dialogues, clearly implying that Fun Gang going to become faster and stronger, so our growing speed and power it's definitely canon
Eden_Warlock99
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Meant more that they're all the same Tier rn. Also 8-C.
Yeah, and Jackenstein fought them at LV4, like the Titan did. So did Mike(s).
We can't say the LV4 Kris that fought the Titan is Low 7-C while the LV4 one that fought Jackenstein is 9-A.
Kinda a false analogy, because the only reason said final boss would be Low 2-C in this situation is because we put em at > All the other bosses, even ones that the heroes were hopeless against and had to use the power of friendship to beat (And didn't do so against this final boss), when that superiority is shown to not be all encompassing.
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Yeah, because the Ch 1-3 fodders have cinematic showings of them being comparable unlike Ch 4.
The ones bolded are only through game mechanics and have no lore indicator of being that strong, that's the issue.
I am saying that Jack does not scale at all.
That's according to you, though. The Titan was always hyped from Ralsei to be this unbeatable being due to it being the fountain itself.
Anonymous_Learner
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Frisk getting Player's DT coming in clutch once more (Kris, the player rejecter, stays fodder)
LittleGuy99
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I remember seeing this on Twitter
LittleGuy99
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Kris >>>> Frisk
You'll see, chapter 7 will change everything
Eden_Warlock99
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This the Kid Buu vs Buuhan of Deltarune.
Qurbonboev
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Main arguments for Neo>Giga I see are:
1. Giga is just pure Darkness, Neo have Lightner hopes and dreams in it.
2. Gerson tells us about "Heroes battle on chariots and save the Queen". Only fight that corresponds to this is fight against Spamton Neo. Implies that Neo would have bet Queen without us.
3. Neo was successfully corrupting Queen Mansion in Weird Route.
4. Both battles were hopeless initially for Fun Gang. We need to pull up Thrash Machine to fight with Giga. Fun Gang seems shocked to see Neo projectiles(Kris looks like they accepted their death). They are saved by Soul activating Yellow mode.
5. With h̶e̶a̶v̶y̶ ̶d̶r̶u̶g̶s̶ shadow crystals use, Neo can grow to about 30 meters, equal to Giga. Though only for one turn.
6. Neo with blue light special can try to win battle of attrition against Giga.
I am not that much knowledgeable in DBZ. But I assume Kid Buu/Neo is weaker, but more destructive, and Buuhan/Giga is stronger, calmer one
Eden_Warlock99
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Ye
It honestly fits so well, both Kris and SSJ3 Goku could actually go toe-to-toe with Neo and Kid Buu in a straight 1-on-1 fight, neither of them could win alone, but they could keep up. Meanwhile, Buuhan and GIGA Queen were as so far above the rest that it wasn’t even worth attempting a normal fight and the only option was to fuse.
But there are arguments for Kid Buu and NEO being stronger via the hype and "strongest around" statements they got.
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Ghengiroo115
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Unless the Yellow Soul mode is meant to represent some massive unstated power boost exclusive to the Spamton NEO fight or something, I don’t see how he could ever be stronger than GIGA Queen or even in the same ballpark. GIGA is portrayed as being completely unbeatable for the Ch. 2 Fun Gang, while NEO can be physically overpowered by either a pacifist Fun Gang or a violent Kris.
Eden_Warlock99
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Yes but have you considered
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Wow, the thread's gotten active! Well, all the more reason to post this, then?
Seems like Hammer of Justice &/or Sound of Justice may've gotten a small nerf/buff.
Between the expected Undertale Memories response for Undertale's Anniversary on September 15th, & now a newsletter scheduled for September, September is gonna be huge for UT/DR.
Also, based on Toby's wordings & the lack of changes to current game now, sounds like they've got their plate full with Chapter 5. Anyone remember when we had to wait like, 6 months because of testing & localization? Because it doesn't seem like we're even at that phase yet, so it seems like "Coming 2026" meaning "Coming January 1st, 2026" is seeming more & more unlikely....
September 15th is less than 3 weeks away....
BTW, linking our other General Discussion:
vsbattles.com
Seems like Hammer of Justice &/or Sound of Justice may've gotten a small nerf/buff.
Between the expected Undertale Memories response for Undertale's Anniversary on September 15th, & now a newsletter scheduled for September, September is gonna be huge for UT/DR.
Also, based on Toby's wordings & the lack of changes to current game now, sounds like they've got their plate full with Chapter 5. Anyone remember when we had to wait like, 6 months because of testing & localization? Because it doesn't seem like we're even at that phase yet, so it seems like "Coming 2026" meaning "Coming January 1st, 2026" is seeming more & more unlikely....
September 15th is less than 3 weeks away....
BTW, linking our other General Discussion:
UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD
Okay, I have a question: why don't we use the TV rating from the Battle of Mettaton to calculate the Underground's population? Wouldn't that be around 12,000?
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FWIW, Susie did have an (apparently optional.) training arc with Gerson, but maybe it's meant to be mandatory in the "true" narrative since it's so important to Susie's characterization?
JusticeAxe
The JusticeAxe , initially referred to as the Magic Axe , is an axe-type weapon in Chapter 4 of Deltarune. It is obtained by first completing the gold piano puzzle, then defeating the Hammer of Justice. The JusticeAxe can only be equipped to Susie, and grants +12 AT, making it the strongest...
"It has no special powers. However, in order to attain this item, you became much stronger!"
FWIW, Susie also seems to attribute Kris's aid to her success. Presumably, she's aware of the SOUL & assumes that's all Kris?
- [If first attempt]
- The truth is, I was gonna give you it all if you beat me or not.
- But woomph, you actually put up quite a fight!
- [Susie] Well, maybe you're losing your touch.
- Oh, far from it!
- ... You weren't truly fighting by yourself, were ya?
- [Susie] ... huh?
- [Susie] ... oh, you mean Kris. Yeah.
- [Susie] Guess I kinda needed their help to win.
- Well, don't sell your own skills short either.
- You're something real special yourself...
- [Susie] Heh. You weren't bad either.
- Now go enjoy that Axe! Geh heh heh!
- [Susie] Alright. Heh.
- [Otherwise]
- [Susie] Knew it was worth having a rematch! [Attempts 2-5]
- [Attempt 6 onward]
- [Susie] FINALLY!!
- [Susie] Was starting to wonder if I'd ever win...
- Perseverance. Each time, you get a little better.
- ... that's all I wanted to see.
- Can't think I'm gonna be the toughest thing you'll face.
- But next time, you'll be ready.
- Don't give up, and give 'em hell!
- [Susie] Don't have to tell me that, old man!!
Perhaps more pertinently to the Titan, first & probably less relevantly is that Ralsei seems to unlock some power when facing it, considering he flies when approaching it. (Also, maybe it's just dust, but the trail under him floating is not quite the same colour as his "shadow" when casting spells.)
The point is, in theory, Ralsei's floating may be signs of him using more magic, & he does have Reviver & whatnot.
The more relevant things are:
Susie: "How the hell are we supposed to... beat it?"
Ralsei: "I... ... I don't think we can... It's hatching so fast."
This suggests the Titan was forming fast. Potentially because it was born of The Knight &/or because The Knight may've sort've made 5 fountains when making The Titan?
- [Check, Titan's DEFENSE up, before Regenerating]
- TITAN - AT 40 DF 800 The fear of dark, which appears in many forms.
- The atmosphere feels tense... (You can use UNLEASH!) [TP at 80% or above]
- [TP below 80%]
- Use ACTS to survive... Expose darkness to LIGHT... and gather COURAGE to gain TP.
- Then, use "UNLEASH" to reveal the WEAK POINT!
- The atmosphere feels tense... (You can use UNLEASH!) [At 80% or more TP]
- Your SOUL emitted a brilliant light! [Unleash, successful]
- [Ralsei] Kris!! What are you doing!? Attack!! [Unleash, if Titan's DEFENSE is already down]
- [After Unleash #1, #2]
- [Ralsei] ATTACK!! Its DEFENSE is down!! [Ralsei is up]
- Titan's DEFENSE dropped massively! ATTACKs are super effective! [Ralsei is down]
- Titan's DEFENSEs are dropped! ATTACKs will be super effective! [After Unleash #3, loops until Titan's HP reaches 50%]
For most of the fight, they're hitting it with its Shield present, but....
- [Before Titan heals #4]
- [Ralsei] It seems... it seems we were only...
- [Ralsei] ... damaging its outer shell.
- [Ralsei] As long as the inside is intact...
- [Ralsei] This battle... will just keep...
- [Susie] ...
- [After DualBuster]
- [Old Man] Geheh, not bad!
- [Susie] Heheh, right?
- [Susie] ... still, we've only harmed the outside..
- [Old Man] Then ya know what to do, right?
- [Susie] ...
- Your SOUL shone brighter! [Brighten]
- [DualHeal]
- Your SOUL shined its power on RALSEI and SUSIE!
- Ralsei and Susie cast DUAL HEAL! Effectiveness of DUAL HEAL has lowered!
- Your soul is shining... a new ACT appeared! [After Gerson/Old Man Joins Party]
- Your SOUL shone on the Old Man and Susie! [DualBuster]
Anyway, point is, for most of The Titan's fight, unlike other boss fights, the SOUL is shining.
Either it only does this or it's only visible in deep darkness, which would be odd if it's constantly luminous. So is it active shining?
But evidently, LIGHT is antipodal to The Titan. Though, in this fight at least, it only seems to get all-caps in the Check when TP is below 80%.
- [Check, Titan's DEFENSE up, before Regenerating]
- TITAN - AT 40 DF 800 The fear of dark, which appears in many forms.
- The atmosphere feels tense... (You can use UNLEASH!) [TP at 80% or above]
- [TP below 80%]
- Use ACTS to survive... Expose darkness to LIGHT... and gather COURAGE to gain TP.
- Then, use "UNLEASH" to reveal the WEAK POINT!
The point is, the SOUL is working much harder against The Titan. It's shining light constantly, which it only ever does in deep darkness, & has multiple techniques, including DualBuster where it shines its power on party members.
SAVE
SAVE is a gameplay mechanic in Deltarune that allows the player to save their game progress in each Chapter. The current game can only be SAVED at SAVE points found in the Dark World. In Chapter 4, SAVE points can occasionally be found in the Light World.
"Power" comes up ALL THE TIME in SAVE Point dialogue, especially the wording with "filled with (the) power".
While Hammer of Justice can deflect Rude Buster, DualBuster is nonetheless achieved through him & Susie first having the SOUL shine its power on them.
& when the Titan's shield goes down, it's stated its DEFENSE dropped massively.
Not to mention they're apparently only harming the outer shell.
Even assuming The Titan was fully formed -Ralsei said it was hatching so fast, implying normally a Titan wouldn't be fully hatched by this time. Likely thanks to The Knight's acceleration of its formation, seemingly through striking at multiple points to make a fountain, the majority of the damage they did was to the outer shell, often after massively dropping its defense &/or exposing its "WEAK POINT".
So 1 or more of the following may be possible:
A. The Titan wasn't complete yet, as implied by Ralsei's comment about how fast it's hatching.
B. This Titan was stronger than normal because more fountain-forming strikes or The Knight being strong.
C. The Delta Warriors shouldn't scale because they were using The Titan's opposite/weakness, LIGHT to weaken it & lower its defenses & mostly hitting its WEAK POINT & having hte SOUL shine its power on them. (It is possible The Titan could be a "stone wall"; Higher durability than its AP, since other than the debatable case of The Delta Warriors & Hammer of Justice (Who is in the same debate.), I don't know of any other cases of characters that can survive being harmed by The Titan; Ergo, we could call them taking hits from it Plot-Induced Stupidity &/or Game Mechanics, or a case where they had to use weaknesses & debuffs specific to the Titan to handle it, if it's so contentious.)
D. Considering we don't know the explanation for why Level goes up after each chapter, & we've seen it didn't increase in Chapter 4 when the first Dark Sanctuary's Dark Fountain was sealed, despite it apparently being made by The Roaring Knight, yet seemingly DID increase after the off-screen sealing of the TV World's Dark Fountain made by Kris, yet not after sealing the Chapter 4 Second Sanctuary Dark Fountain made by Susie, it seems inconsistent so far; 2 of The Knight's DFs being sealed granted a level when sealed, & seemingly so did 1 of Kris's.... So why didn't the third from The Knight nor Susie's grant a level when sealed? We haven't even seen if a level will be gained from the Third Dark Sanctuary's Dark Fountain being sealed either, IIRC.
Ergo, these levels might be an inconsistent system, or there was an unseen gain in strength as a result of sealing the first Dark Sanctuary & the Second Sanctuary? Maybe it was just Game Mechanics & the devs didn't want to change the base stats drastically mid-chapter for balancing reasons or something??
E. There's also the possibility that besides the SOUL providing more power, Ralsei unlocked more power (As indicated by his floating.) &/or that Susie's becoming stronger to get the Justice Axe made her genuinely strong enough to stand up to The Titan, be it by our standards or otherwise. (Maybe it's another case of downscaling.)
Sorry about all the words. Hope this helps.
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ShockingPsychic
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Qurbonboev
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They use this weakness to beat it. But they still can deal some damage to outer shield without Soul Powers. Their damage is (practically) nullified only when Titan uses wings for defending itself. Nature of said wings is interesting, Black Shard doesn't deal more damage to it. So it's wings should at least have something other than darkness.
Scaling Jackenstein to Titan is silly. Main bosses can be assumed somewhat equal to Fun Gang, based purely of their status. All other enemies scale to Fun Gang, only if there are lore/cutscene showing them as formidable enemies to them(on top of my head only secret bosses have them). Jackenstein doesn't have neither of it. Heck, only reason he can fight us, is total lack of light, and our inability to attack him. Once light returns, fight is over.
Btw, doesn't anybody know why @Edutyn is not posting or commenting for almost a week. They were pretty active before, and we need them to fix their mistakes in their calc(mostly volume and mass of statue). If anyone is interested, I can make compile two of their most important calcs(that have errors) and fix them. Although, I feel like it's somewhat unethical(since most of the work had already been done by them).
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Eden_Warlock99
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This approach ends up making the Fun Gang individually thousands of times stronger than Jackenstein and literally everyone from the prior chapters including said secret bosses, despite the fact even in CH4 Susie refers to the random encounters as "tough" and ya know, the CHECK stats, stats distinct from the actual in-game stats and purely exist as the internal powerscaling of DR, showing us that even regular Darkners have stats that rival Titan Spawn.
LittleGuy99
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Qurbonboev
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I don't scale Titan to city level. Dark Fountains that were created in Light World, and had ~hours for developing did "create"(this is point of significant contention) city sized Dark worlds. I see no reason to scaling Titan(created in Dark World, and had ~minutes for developing before we start fighting) to them.
And Ralsei tells us that Titans are something that Dark World create when they are too strong, not Dark Fountains themselves
Ti58
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I mean we are still scaling the Titan to GIGA Queen. That's still Low 7-C.
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