Deleting Misunderstood Information Manipulation Type 2 From Genshin UES Fundamental Mechanism

[Rakih_Elyan]

Elemental Manipulation (Genshin Impact)

Elemental Power are known as the fundamental building blocks of the Genshin Impact Universe, that spreads across all three realms of the Universe; the Human Realm, Light Realm and the Void Realm (The Abyss). It is the cause and manifestation of all phenomenas that occurs throughout the Universe...

vsbattles.fandom.com

• Information Manipulation (Type 2; Elemental Power is the building blocks of the Universe and the impetus of many phenomenas and manifestations across it[41])

Just by being the world's building blocks doesn't make it Information. This is similar to the Five-Phase and Classical Elements in mysticism, being the elements that build the entirety of the world. This shouldn't be information haxs and isn't our standard of info hax.

The scan only say that it is the building block of reality and the source of its many miraculous thing. While our information manipulation page say this:

Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality.

The single scan above doesn't say shit about information.

TLDR: This should be removed.

Agree: @Mr. Bambu, @ActuallySpaceMan42 (Leaning)

Neutral:

Disagree: @GarrixianXD (VSBW Content Mod, also bruh what is your actual stance here)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Failing further information, this is obviously leagues below the requisite point of entry to have the ability and should be removed, aye. I agree with the CRT for now.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Mizuki67]

yeah agree with this for now

 

[Woomica]

The info type 2 in genshin comes from this: Memory, Emotion, Perception, Soul and Information Transmutation (All Types; Wielders of elements, especially an elemental creature, can convert knowledge, speech, emotions and memories into pure elemental energy.[27][28] The Memories reside in the soul, which contains the consciousness[Honkai: Star Rail 1] and fundamental information[Honkai: Star Rail 2][Note 1])
and from my understanding garri has used HSR scans to give Info Type 2 to genshin since genshin is connected to hsr trough imaginary tree, and thus souls also posses info type 2.
Now because elements serve as building blocks of reality as said in your CRT, since wielders of element can convert stuff mentioned above into pure elemental energy, they should also have Info Type 2 from that at least from my point of view here.
Tho i will wait for Garrixian input, this is mostly their work and they should know why is that put there, tbh id probably merge info type 2 with these stuff listed.
Put me as neutral for now

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

The info type 2 in genshin comes from this: Memory, Emotion, Perception, Soul and Information Transmutation (All Types; Wielders of elements, especially an elemental creature, can convert knowledge, speech, emotions and memories into pure elemental energy.[27][28] The Memories reside in the soul, which contains the consciousness[Honkai: Star Rail 1] and fundamental information[Honkai: Star Rail 2][Note 1])
and from my understanding garri has used HSR scans to give Info Type 2 to genshin since genshin is connected to hsr trough imaginary tree, and thus souls also posses info type 2.
Now because elements serve as building blocks of reality as said in your CRT, since wielders of element can convert stuff mentioned above into pure elemental energy, they should also have Info Type 2 from that at least from my point of view here.
Tho i will wait for Garrixian input, this is mostly their work and they should know why is that put there, tbh id probably merge info type 2 with these stuff listed.
Put me as neutral for now

Converting knowledge into pure elemental energy /= Elemental energy is information that is fundamental to reality.

Here your causal link: Nahida convert knowledge and memory into elemental energy, that elemental energy carries knowledge and emotion as the hydroshroom said. Element is world building block. Thus, you think that this is enough for info type 2.

Here the logical fault: Nahida can convert knowledge and memory into elemental energy. But there no mention that it is an elemental energy inherent traits. This is special circumstance. Thus, it doesn't mean that element is inherently an information. And this is an action of an archon that is Nahida, not every element and vision users. Thus, making it ineligible for UES hax as it is can only be used by her. Plus this is "Knowledge from Nahida that she convert into elemental energy" not "Elemental energy as information that build the reality".

This is eligible for Info type 1 manipulation, not type 2.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The info type 2 in genshin comes from this: Memory, Emotion, Perception, Soul and Information Transmutation (All Types; Wielders of elements, especially an elemental creature, can convert knowledge, speech, emotions and memories into pure elemental energy.[27][28] The Memories reside in the soul, which contains the consciousness[Honkai: Star Rail 1] and fundamental information[Honkai: Star Rail 2][Note 1])
and from my understanding garri has used HSR scans to give Info Type 2 to genshin since genshin is connected to hsr trough imaginary tree, and thus souls also posses info type 2.
Now because elements serve as building blocks of reality as said in your CRT, since wielders of element can convert stuff mentioned above into pure elemental energy, they should also have Info Type 2 from that at least from my point of view here.
Tho i will wait for Garrixian input, this is mostly their work and they should know why is that put there, tbh id probably merge info type 2 with these stuff listed.
Put me as neutral for now

For the record, I think this is pretty bad in terms of evidence of legitimate Information Manipulation, and certainly doesn't indicate much usability even if it were to be decidedly interpreted as that, but it is at least better than what is in the OP in that it actually mentions it. I'll withhold concrete ruling for now, but know I lean against using it as Information Manipulation as it stands; I will wait for Garrixian, per your want.

Regardless of the outcome, this must be clarified better in the future- the justification provided in the OP must be replaced with this.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I note that six minutes ago as of beginning to type this that Garrixian has edited the bit in question.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Most of the justification for elemental energy carrying type 2 information hax at its basic state comes from its being closely related to memories and souls, which consist of the data of the Universe. I forgot to update the justification for that section on my sandbox, but it should have its description updated.

The Ley Line network carries the flow of elemental energy, which is also a network of souls and memories. And not to mention the point Woomica brought up when Nahida and Traveller converted memories and knowledge, which I explained is derived from the consciousness which is the intertwining data with the soul. The Hexenzirkel witches are also able to create life using their magic, which is data itself.

I honestly think that type 2 Information hax can be kept, and that section just needs an update, since we do see that elemental energy can indeed tamper with data.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I note that six minutes ago as of beginning to type this that Garrixian has edited the bit in question.

I was trimming rather redundant content, it has no impact on this CRT.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Leaning in agreement with OP atm.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

The Ley Line network carries the flow of elemental energy, which is also a network of souls and memories.

Already exist in Leylines haxs within the page, redundant for fundamental mechanics. And changing leylines isn't inherent ability for everyone with elemental energy, the only ones feat resemble info type 2 hax was Nahida erasing Rukhadevatta. Can you even imagine someone like Arataki Itto tampering with leylines?

derived from the consciousness which is the intertwining data with the soul

In that case, his soul - the data of his consciousness- should be stored in the Hall of Karma.

What do you mean by their soul?
Qingque: The fact that you're an Outworlder has slipped my mind just now. Let me put it this way - the judge will make a copy of the person's consciousness. Got it now?

A Teacher and a Friend: Continued

A Teacher and a Friend: Continued is an Adventure Mission on The Xianzhou Luofu. Head toward the Artisanship Commission and find Chengjie Head to Machinery District and look for standard aurumaton parts Hand over the parts to Chengjie Repair the jade abacus module of the aurumaton Head to...

honkai-star-rail.fandom.com

From the same quest, the hall of karma only record the copy of one consciousness. The data here would be refer to the copy inside the Hall instead of actual soul. The fact that nobody see and capture the scan of the previous dialogue just there made me suspicious.

The Hexenzirkel witches are also able to create life using their magic,

Almond: A long, long time ago, three goddesses created this world, and named it "Simulanka."
Almond: The Goddess of Creation, who presides over matter and magic, created the mountains and rivers, and gave us life. Her powers also paved the way for Simulanka to exist in numerous worlds.

Exclusive to Hexenzirkel witches.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I'm not the most apt in Honkai: Star Rail. It'll be rather an HSR thing for the supporters there to discuss since all the things correlated to souls and all are from HSR; Genshin inheriting its traits would rather be a byproduct by simply being a canon world to it.

Anyways, the fact that elemental energy can be used to be connected and middle with data, also being analogous to souls, I don't see a reason to remove type 2 information hax. Ley lines manipulation only applies to those who can manipulate the ley lines directly, and only applies to characters who are directly shown to control the ley lines, otherwise the same logic can also go to all elemental allogenes because they can use elemental energy, which is a network within ley lines; obviously, it doesn't work.

Edit: The magic that Hexenzirkel witches use is still their power nonetheless, meaning it's correlated to elemental energy but rather a special variant like elemental magic. Though, I suppose you're right about only the Witch's elemental magic can tamper with data and shouldn't be tied with other variants of elemental energy, however, I think the attribution is still worth noting.

 

[Woomica]

I'm not the most apt in Honkai: Star Rail. It'll be rather an HSR thing for the supporters there to discuss since all the things correlated to souls and all are from HSR; Genshin inheriting its traits would rather be a byproduct by simply being a canon world to it.

I think you should tag @Enryu_The_Red_Tower @Voidnether @Aernasilver since enryu and aerna silver added the hsr info typr 2 souls and Void argued it on your aeons crt which you seem to have acepted it

 

[GarrixianXD]

I think you should tag @Enryu_The_Red_Tower @Voidnether @Aernasilver since enryu and aerna silver added the hsr info typr 2 souls and Void argued it on your aeons crt which you seem to have acepted it

@Enryu_The_Red_Tower @Aernasilver @Voidnether

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Anyways, the fact that elemental energy can be used to be connected and middle with data, also being analogous to souls, I don't see a reason to remove type 2 information hax. Ley lines manipulation only applies to those who can manipulate the ley lines directly, and only applies to characters who are directly shown to control the ley lines, otherwise the same logic can also go to all elemental allogenes because they can use elemental energy, which is a network within ley lines; obviously, it doesn't work.

I disagree, only those who can use leylines can have info type 2 manipulation hax and it already there.

What you said is interaction, not manipulation of info type 2.

Anyway, it's 9pm here and I need to rest.

 

[GarrixianXD]

What you said is interaction, not manipulation of info type 2.

Well, you'll still have to inflict an impact and manifest its effects to be qualified for an ability. Simply touching it wouldn't be enough; "interacting" shouldn't be misinterpreted. The current characters, such as Traveller, Nahida and Raiden have ley lines manipulation because they can directly affect the ley lines; such that Traveller can active ley line outcrops, Nahida rules over Irminsul; Raiden used her powers to expand the Sacred Sakura Tree into the Ley lines and purified Inazuma's history. It isn't something that can be simply achieved just because you have type 2 info hax.

 

[Dog3352]

Most of the justification for elemental energy carrying type 2 information hax at its basic state comes from its being closely related to memories and souls, which consist of the data of the Universe. I forgot to update the justification for that section on my sandbox, but it should have its description updated.

The Ley Line network carries the flow of elemental energy, which is also a network of souls and memories. And not to mention the point Woomica brought up when Nahida and Traveller converted memories and knowledge, which I explained is derived from the consciousness which is the intertwining data with the soul. The Hexenzirkel witches are also able to create life using their magic, which is data itself.

I honestly think that type 2 Information hax can be kept, and that section just needs an update, since we do see that elemental energy can indeed tamper with data.

This is a Ley Lines thing, not pure Elemental Energy.

Transforming memories and knowledge into power is just Info 1.

In the case of witches, they give consciousness to paper origami through magic, I don't even think this is related to giving Info 2 for pure Elemental Energy.

 

[Furina003]

This is a Ley Lines thing, not pure Elemental Energy.

Transforming memories and knowledge into power is just Info 1.

In the case of witches, they give consciousness to paper origami through magic, I don't even think this is related to giving Info 2 for pure Elemental Energy.

Leyline is the name of the elemental flow line, it is the elemental that forms everything in Genshin, therefore it is said to be the foundation of the world.

And therefore also people capable of manipulating elementals should be able to obtain type 2 info

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Leyline is the name of the elemental flow line, it is the elemental that forms everything in Genshin, therefore it is said to be the foundation of the world.

And therefore also people capable of manipulating elementals should be able to obtain type 2 info

Converting knowledge into pure elemental energy =/= Elemental energy is information that is fundamental to reality.

Here your causal link: Nahida convert knowledge and memory into elemental energy, that elemental energy carries knowledge and emotion as the hydroshroom said. Element is world building block. Thus, you think that this is enough for info type 2.

Here the logical fault: Nahida can convert knowledge and memory into elemental energy. But there no mention that it is an elemental energy inherent traits. This is special circumstance. Thus, it doesn't mean that element is inherently an information. And this is an action of an archon that is Nahida, not every element and vision users. Thus, making it ineligible for UES hax as it is can only be used by her. Plus this is "Knowledge from Nahida that she convert into elemental energy" not "Elemental energy as information that build the reality".

This is eligible for Info type 1 manipulation, not type 2.

"Leylines being the network of elemental energy that record the world" =/= "Elemental energy is a fundamental information of this world"

Broken causal link.

We should be more strict with info haxs nowadays huh.

 

[Dog3352]

Leyline is the name of the elemental flow line, it is the elemental that forms everything in Genshin, therefore it is said to be the foundation of the world.

And therefore also people capable of manipulating elementals should be able to obtain type 2 info

Ley Lines ≠ Pure Elemental Energy.

The Elemental Energy manipulated by elemental beings and humans is just pure Elemental Energy, while the Elemental Energy in the Ley Lines is information and memories of the world, together with Elemental Energy, they are different "compounds" with different purposes.

 

[Furina003]

Ley Lines ≠ Pure Elemental Energy.

The Elemental Energy manipulated by elemental beings and humans is just pure Elemental Energy, while the Elemental Energy in the Ley Lines is information and memories of the world, together with Elemental Energy, they are different "compounds" with different purposes.

"Leylines being the network of elemental energy that record the world" =/= "Elemental energy is a fundamental information of this world"

Broken causal link.

We should be more strict with info haxs nowadays huh.

So what does that mean, the people who get type 2 manipulated information are the people who manipulate the leylines?

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

So what does that mean, the only people who get type 2 manipulation information are the people who manipulate the leylines?

ye

 

[GarrixianXD]

Tbh, after some thought I don't have an issue with removing type 2 infohax for the basics of elemental energy, since ley lines are a fundamental conceptual network (raw CN text translates to "conceptual network" but in EN, it says "mysterious network") in the end and can disqualify basic elemental energy sharing the same properties as souls.

 

[Furina003]

I'm more in favor of eliminating IM2 in here ,but for the leyline it should be fine if it is maintained

 

[GarrixianXD]

I'm more in favor of eliminating IM2 in here ,but for the leyline it should be fine if it is maintained

Eliminating info hax type 2 from that section is the entire point of this CRT. Nothing else will be changed.

 

[Woomica]

given that justification itself is also pretty bland and empty yeah i agree

 

[Mizuki67]

Actually, i thought the best example of information type 2 being shown here is Scaramouche erasing himself from Irminsul. Well unless you all can prove that the events changed then imo it can qualify

 

[GarrixianXD]

Actually, i thought the best example of information type 2 being shown here is Scaramouche erasing himself from Irminsul. Well unless you all can prove that the events changed then imo it can qualify

That directly pertains to ley lines, so no.

 

[Dog3352]

Actually, i thought the best example of information type 2 being shown here is Scaramouche erasing himself from Irminsul. Well unless you all can prove that the events changed then imo it can qualify

He didn't erase himself completely, just his name.
Irminsul also does not erase events from the past, otherwise the entire present would undergo changes after the erasure of Rukkha.

And this is still about Ley Lines.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Actually, i thought the best example of information type 2 being shown here is Scaramouche erasing himself from Irminsul. Well unless you all can prove that the events changed then imo it can qualify

That is just type 1 info hax, not type 2

 

[Voidnether]

A Teacher and a Friend: Continued

A Teacher and a Friend: Continued is an Adventure Mission on The Xianzhou Luofu. Head toward the Artisanship Commission and find Chengjie Head to Machinery District and look for standard aurumaton parts Hand over the parts to Chengjie Repair the jade abacus module of the aurumaton Head to...

honkai-star-rail.fandom.com

From the same quest, the hall of karma only record the copy of one consciousness. The data here would be refer to the copy inside the Hall instead of actual soul. The fact that nobody see and capture the scan of the previous dialogue just there made me suspicious.

What do you mean by their soul?
Qingque: The fact that you're an Outworlder has slipped my mind just now. Let me put it this way - the judge will make a copy of the person's consciousness. Got it now?

Quoted from the wiki itself, this should be straightforward atm tbh.

And yeahh.. If I could give inputs, Information Type 2 in Genshin (exclusively) is only obtained through Irminsul but that's Information Erasure Type 2. The rest are vague, that's why HSR scans were used — I'd probably agree with Arataki Itto not being able to manipulate the fundamental information as this refers to the Ley Line instead of the Elemental that most Vision Holders are capable of manipulating.

Last, even on Ley Line themselves there's no proof indicating that Ley Line correlates with information, but rather Ley Line that contains the soul, the soul contains the information but that same information is contained so it'll be something that's like: "Ley Line -> Soul -> Information" but Information here doesn't correlate to Ley Line which is the building block of reality — This is around like the 20-30 minutes of Raiden Shogun's Second Story Quest iirc.

Genshin doesn't get Info Type 2 exclusively, but rather from HSR and Information is already accepted as Type 2 as it correlates with reality themselves on HSR (Though I gotta say, wouldn't this make them a Low 1-A Smurf?)

 

[Dog3352]

I think we can conclude this CRT just by agreeing remove Info 2 of the Elementary Energy Manipulation, so that the CRT doesn't drag on.

 

[Voidnether]

I think we can conclude this CRT just by agreeing to remove Info 2 on Elementary Energy Manipulation, so that the CRT doesn't drag on.

Yeah, Info 2 is exclusively for those being able to manipulate Ley Lines (Without bringing up HSR's scans, but even it'll only serve as the side justification).

Though if you ask me, it's more of like being exclusive to the Irminsul (or Irminsul doesn't get it) itself as Ley Lines only serve as the repository of "fundamental" information — But, it's still Ley Line that makes up the world. Not the repository of information inside of it.

Info Type 2 exclusively with Genshin's feats seem too iffy.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Garrixian

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

So, what exactly is being proposed here? Downgrade the Info Type 2 to Info Type 1 in all Hoyoverse games or just remove it entirely?

 

[Voidnether]

So, what exactly is being proposed here? Downgrade the Info Type 2 to Info Type 1 in all Hoyoverse games or just remove it entirely?

Just removing Genshin's Elements (The one that Vision Holders are capable of manipulating) being Info Type 2 (The Ley Lines, and everything on HSR stays).

Already had 2 staff approvals (3 with Garrixian), only waiting for grace period atm.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Just removing Genshin's Elements (The one that Vision Holders are capable of manipulating) being Info Type 2 (The Ley Lines, and everything on HSR stays).

Already had 2 staff approvals (3 with Garrixian), only waiting for grace period atm.

Furina told me that he has new arguments against the OP, I'd rather wait for his input.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Just removing Genshin's Elements (The one that Vision Holders are capable of manipulating) being Info Type 2 (The Ley Lines, and everything on HSR stays).

Already had 2 staff approvals (3 with Garrixian), only waiting for grace period atm.

Spaceman and I evaluated it before the proposition changed, I'll note. Spaceman also only said "leaning" and I said I'd agree to hear out others before casting official judgement. I will try to give official judgement soon.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The Ley Line network carries the flow of elemental energy, which is also a network of souls and memories. And not to mention the point Woomica brought up when Nahida and Traveller converted memories and knowledge, which I explained is derived from the consciousness which is the intertwining data with the soul. The Hexenzirkel witches are also able to create life using their magic, which is data itself.

Hexenzirkel is not mentioned within the linked bit, nor are witches- the specific highlighted area refers to goddesses. I presume context is necessary that is not afforded by the raw text, I encourage that to be brought forward or explained. It isn't a big deal, since contextually you guys have accepted this scan as valid despite disagreeing with one another when it was posted, but still, knowledge would be welcome.

Yeah, Info 2 is exclusively for those being able to manipulate Ley Lines (Without bringing up HSR's scans, but even it'll only serve as the side justification).

Though if you ask me, it's more of like being exclusive to the Irminsul (or Irminsul doesn't get it) itself as Ley Lines only serve as the repository of "fundamental" information — But, it's still Ley Line that makes up the world. Not the repository of information inside of it.

Info Type 2 exclusively with Genshin's feats seem too iffy.

I don't know the context really, but arguing from a perspective of another verse that doesn't share a verse page seems immediately off. Either they're literally the same verse (in which case they must be combined and we should not be having a discussion about Genshin Impact) or they aren't and this isn't valid. I know this isn't the fundamental of your point, but it irks me a smidge.

So the current thing, then, is that people argue Info (Type 1) is manipulatable in some facet, because the leylines carry and store information about those, for lack of a better term, uploaded into it. Things like memories and skills and so on. The extent that these can be manipulated seems to vary, however- above scans talked about giving these skills to elementals, although nothing so far seems to imply, for example, that a creature would be able to use them for themselves.

The argument then pivots to say that Type 2 exists, but it isn't what most of the users of these abilities is doing. The distinction between this and Data Manipulation in this verse seems remarkably slim, although I will sign off on Info Type 2 for now.

So, I conclude that I agree with changing the broadly-applied ability to Type 1. Type 2 seems more tentative but I'll still sign off on it remaining in the way y'all have discussed above.