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Deku’s Lifting Strength Downgrade
- Thread starter Insert_creative_name_here_12
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I presume this is a bad thing?
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I'd say it's more 50/50
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No, they aren't. We've been over this. Now you're just getting off-topic at this point.
If you want to talk about the feats being outliers, create your own CRT. Then we can talk.
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I'm not saying it's wrong fyi, what you did might check out, for when the whole bars get bend out of shape at the end.
But snapping the pieces in half is cross section at the point of the break or bend.
It'd probably be closer to Class 50 using cross sectional area for the snapping actually, so there's that (though, there did seem to be a **** ton of snaps and it did look quite thick... Thus it very well could be way higher), but hell if I know if that's consistent or not.
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Yeah sure, 8% Deku can barely lift a 7 ton steel beam with one hand and you want me to take your 33 thousand tons calc seriously.
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There's a clear difference between catching a falling object and lifting one. Acknowledge it.
And for the record, Two Heroes predates the chapter in which he lifts the steel beam. If anything, the steel beam feat would be the outlier.
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Damage? Is that you?
Also, no they aren't. Give me any concrete feat for 100% other than the USS.
There are wrong things in the movies, but that doesn't equal every single feat being worthless. That's a defeatist position.
TBF, Horikoshi also thinks Overclock, who sees sniper rifle bullets in slow motion, is slower than sound.
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I'm starting to understand Damage, we just pick the feats that suit us best and ignore the ones that are outliers.
The storm feat is 6-C at the bare minimum, yet we went with the 7-A explosion because it was more consistent with the 7-B+ feat.
Which is not even 7-B+ anymore.
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That's kinda the issue we face with literally every feat we can calculate.
Please, go calculate every single feat in the manga. Every wall broken. Every effect caused. Everything. And tell me what is outlier and what is not.
We know the movies are canon. They are the most canon thing possible. There is no possibly way we could treat them differently than the manga itself. We don't ignore feats from the Overhaul Arc because they are different from feats in the Joint Training Arc.
So many people come at this with the logic of "The movies are movies, the manga is manga, therefore the movies should be treated differently" when that is not the case. The moment Horikoshi stated they were canon, began showing they were canon, introduced characters from them and integrated them into the canon world, they stopped becoming "movies." They are part of the story, so attempting to omit part of the story due to it being produced in a different medium is absolute folly in my opinion.
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Horikoshi didn't draw nor animated those scenes, at most he gave them the script, and sometimes I even question if he even saw and evaluated the film before it was released to the public, since he goes to theaters to see those films like anyone else.
But if you think that way, why don't we just go all the way in and have 8-A 5% Deku, Bakugo and everyone who scales, 8-B Monoma, Island or even Country level top tiers, etc, what exactly is stopping us, the films are "the most canon thing possible".
But if you think that way, why don't we just go all the way in and have 8-A 5% Deku, Bakugo and everyone who scales, 8-B Monoma, Island or even Country level top tiers, etc, what exactly is stopping us, the films are "the most canon thing possible".
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I definitely do get Therefir and Damage’s point of views now cause at this point it’s ridiculous cause the movies are stronger than everything these characters can do normally and it isn’t like Horikoshi can’t show higher feats but he just doesn’t.
Why don’t we just separate them into anime versions and manga versions cause hypersonic speed and 8A AP 5% Deku just makes no sense based on the manga’s scaling
Why don’t we just separate them into anime versions and manga versions cause hypersonic speed and 8A AP 5% Deku just makes no sense based on the manga’s scaling
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Do you believe 8-B 100% punches is consistent with 8-A 100% finger flicks? Do you believe Todoroki is stronger than the USS Smash? Do you think Geten is stronger than Shigaraki? Do you think Re-Destro is above all other characters, but can't even stop Tokoyami?
Please don't pretend like manga only scaling is perfect in some way and that all our problems would be solved if we just ignored the movies.
And logically, yes, I do think we should go all the way. The only issue even SOMEWHAT being brought up is the Heroes Rising feat, which has the perfectly good explanation of being due to Full Cowl 100%, which I assure you, I will prove is an all around buff and not the exact same as a god dang single finger one day.
8-A I disagree with because it's stupid and clearly contradictory to later feats. There are other feats that are 8-A among the top tiers that are far more consistent with what the verse seems to be establishing. 5% being 8-A is called into question by stronger versions of him not being equal to characters below that. It is simple logic.
Please don't pretend like manga only scaling is perfect in some way and that all our problems would be solved if we just ignored the movies.
And logically, yes, I do think we should go all the way. The only issue even SOMEWHAT being brought up is the Heroes Rising feat, which has the perfectly good explanation of being due to Full Cowl 100%, which I assure you, I will prove is an all around buff and not the exact same as a god dang single finger one day.
8-A I disagree with because it's stupid and clearly contradictory to later feats. There are other feats that are 8-A among the top tiers that are far more consistent with what the verse seems to be establishing. 5% being 8-A is called into question by stronger versions of him not being equal to characters below that. It is simple logic.
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- #94
To be fair Todoroki’s ice scales to no one and isn’t even AP. Shigaraki and other characters can just upscale from Geten it isn’t as though they’d get shoved into unknown or 9A. Ragnarok Tokoyami is straight up unknown but just stupidly powerful.
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Except now we're being disingenuous because we don't want to do the hard work of scaling. The movies aren't anime. They are manga. They are canon to the manga specifically. It isn't a matter of anime vs manga, I don't care if we make anime versions.
The movies though? They apply to both no matter what. Unless you want to ignore all evidence pointing to them being real and create our own canon that is contradictory, the movies are not going to go away.
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5% Deku should scale to punching and hurting All Might.
Do you agree or no that it is an outlier? Should the entire arc be thrown out in that case?
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That's technically within our power.
The movies exist in a certain area of "extended canon". They add onto the manga, but they don't take place within the manga itself even if there are certain hints and nods to it. There won't be explicit confirmation like "Remember that time we fought another guy who had a copy of All For One?" and "Remember that time All Might and I did a sick Double Detroit Smash together?"
It just won't happen.
So it is totally possible to split the verse up, and make a version of extended canon, and a version that is purely based on the manga.
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That is the impossible, wiki rules do not allow that just because.
The movies are 100% canon to the manga, we either use them or we don't.
Feats not lining up doesn't mean we separate them into two things.
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- #99
It’s not about canon it’s about consistency and what they typically show. A show can have canon feats but they’re ignored as outliers. No matter how you slice it the movies ARE higher end stuff than in canon.
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So can someone give a list for what accepted movie feats/calc are being seen as outliers?
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- #101
If that arc waa chocful of outliers I’d probably say we should disregard the feats from it.
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This is a point where our wiki standards and the manga's internal logic come into conflict.
In manga, characters aren't completely invulnerable to each other just because one of them has an amazing striking strength feat and the other doesn't. 5% Deku can totally knock back and do minor damage to All Might... without scaling to 100% All Might's punches (just because All Might can punch at 100% and not hurt himself). That kind of internal logic isn't compatible with our wiki though.
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Except how do we then make the decision of "this stuff that is canon should no longer be canon because we don't want it to be canon" based solely off the feats?
How do you explain Star and Stripe being canon?
How do you explain Nine appearing?
How do you explain the very canon chapter that made World Heroes Mission canon?
Are those just non-existent to the wiki then? Are they fan made works and panels and moments from some author in a basement that isn't legally bound to MHA? Do we ignore all canon that doesn't fit our standards because the scaling is difficult?
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- #104
Kinda like how anyone can sligjtly harm a High End.
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- #105
I literally said it isn’t about canon. King stop strawmanning me. I acknowledge all these things as canon the problem is just the feats being much higher than what occurs in the manga.
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It IS about canon. Because if it's canon, we have to consider what the heck is happening in there with the feats.
Yes, the feats are higher. Does that immediately mean they should be tossed out? Just ignored completely? How is that different from what we're doing already? It's just appealing to other people that want the verse to fit into the wiki's specific standards, and will actively ignore anything they want if it doesn't.
This isn't fixing scaling, it's deliberately removing canon because some feats from that canon are higher than we want them to be.
And its not like there are feats even OPPOSING most of the stuff in the movies.
ITS BECAUSE THE MANGA ITSELF HAS LITTLE TO NO FEATS TO FREAKING SCALE OFF OF RELIABLY WITHOUT ALSO BEING RIDDLED WITH ISSUES.
The manga ping-pongs between tiers more than the ******* movies do. We, WITHOUT THE MOVIES, accept that Base Deku grew several hundred times stronger with 5%, then his base got just as strong. But we dare to say the movies are the ones with bad scaling or inconsistency? We accept weaker characters by hundreds of times but not stronger characters?
We want consistency, but can't even bring up the idea of scaling people to the weakest possible version of All Might without someone trying to say the whole verse should be downgraded to tier 9. We can't even DARE to say other students scale to each other without someone trying to say one student can't even deal damage to the others.
We think every feat in the movies is dumb and should be ignored, and we should ignore the entire thing as an outlier. But actual outliers in the manga? Those can stay, because the verse should be human level.
It is bias and hypocrisy.
The fact you even suggested anime profiles is a sad joke to try and appeal to the fact that we want to include the movies but don't want to include them at the same time.
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I ask again to say, what feats are being calculated that brings up the idea of all of the movies being dropped?
We have a Likely Low 7-B feat storm in the manga, High 7-C feat in the movie, and Low 7-B+ feat in the second movie. Nothing here screams outlier to me besides the 7-A feat, and if 7-A is an outlier than just 7-A is an outlier not all of the movies. The Storm itself was already seen as an outlier, so there is no problem with dropping anything storm related.
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@Kingofwolves999; I think you're going a bit overboard and strawmanning a bit. A user opposing something from the movies doesn't mean they're automatically okay with everything in the manga.
A suggestion to split profiles isn't an attempt to remove canon.
Please don't accuse other users on here of being biased when people are for the most part just trying to make sense of what has been given to us.
A suggestion to split profiles isn't an attempt to remove canon.
Please don't accuse other users on here of being biased when people are for the most part just trying to make sense of what has been given to us.
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- #109
You bringing up peoples’ reactions to scaling doesn’t support your argument at all.
So you’re the one deciding my motive for me now? Realy?
I find it funny that you’re arguing Deku couldn’t have grown hundreds of times stronger now when you were fine with it before.
Why don’t we give it a shot. Look through he manga and determine it’s feats and see what’s most consistent.
‘The manga doesn’t contradict the movies’ oh yeah that’s why 8% Deku is Class 25 and 5% is Class M. Oh yeah that’s why Bakugo’s like what High 8C but jumps to Low 7C in the movies. That’s why the manga has Tier 6 AM, oh wait it doesn’t.
Dude when did I say we should ignore outliers in the manga? If it has outliers to WHAT IS MOST CONSISTENT then we discard the feats in question. The problems with the movie feats as I KEEP TELLING YOU IS THAT THEY ARE FAR HIGHER THAN WHAT THE MANGA SHOWS. This holds true for almost everything shown in these movies or do you really think 5% Deku is hypersonic+ even though Mirio couldn’t blitz a handgun.
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Like I said we don’t have to discard ALL the movie feats let’s just find what is most consistent. I suggested we split them up into anime and manga cause as far as I knew there wasn’t even a Tier 7 feat in the manga.
Let’s just try to find some consistency here. Maybe a few of us could skim the manga for feats, calc them and then come to a conclusion for the scaling.
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There is a Tier 7 feat in the manga, and it comes from All Might making a storm. Regardless of what result it gets, it isn't going to be lower than Tier 7.
Here are all of the accepted manga feats that I can find.
Note: Hope you don't mind I put Vigilante feats in there as well.
Here are all of the accepted manga feats that I can find.
Note: Hope you don't mind I put Vigilante feats in there as well.
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- #112
Thankyou.
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With all this we can use what movie feats that don’t go out of the scale for example Bakugo has another High 8C+ blast against Nine which fits with what he can do in the manga.
Or should I go through the manga for more potential feats to be calced before we move forward?
Or should I go through the manga for more potential feats to be calced before we move forward?
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- #115
This thread should be closed then.
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Alright.
Clearly, I've been getting too heated. So I will apologize. I wasn't attempting to single any one person out for bias, it was a general frustration. I recognize I was going on a tangent that was not on topic, and will do better.
Should anime and manga profiles be created, however, I find it to be incredibly repetitive considering how 1:1 many things in both mediums are, other than the anime just being flat out better and easier to calc. The movies would be applied to both, so nothing would change on that front. The movies would be just as outlier to the anime as they would be to the manga, so the problem is not fixed.
If this will be saved for another thread, so be it.
Again, I apologize for the hostility.
Clearly, I've been getting too heated. So I will apologize. I wasn't attempting to single any one person out for bias, it was a general frustration. I recognize I was going on a tangent that was not on topic, and will do better.
Should anime and manga profiles be created, however, I find it to be incredibly repetitive considering how 1:1 many things in both mediums are, other than the anime just being flat out better and easier to calc. The movies would be applied to both, so nothing would change on that front. The movies would be just as outlier to the anime as they would be to the manga, so the problem is not fixed.
If this will be saved for another thread, so be it.
Again, I apologize for the hostility.
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Apology accepted. We decided to not split them up and instead try to see what’s consistent and Rusty provided a list of accepted manga feats so we’ll start there.
I was planning to make a thread but perhaps we should wait a while since I’m sure some of us are a bit frustrated and maybe even tired so maybe it’d be best to wait and tackle this with a cool head in like a day or something.
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maybe this subject is even over, considering that I took the time to show up. But whatever
All Might's Punch --> Tornado Pulls Clouds --> KE is applied
All Might's punch is irrelevant. In fact, the punch created a storm, that's destruction enough
It is not the punch that follows physics, it is the storm being pulled in an instant
All Might's Punch --> Tornado Pulls Clouds --> KE is applied
All Might's punch is irrelevant. In fact, the punch created a storm, that's destruction enough
You don't understand the logic, right? The point is that you are applying physics and mathematics when at time X you are clearly not following these laws. Yes, a 7-B character doesn't need to destroy a city with every move, the point is when you use real formulas and logic from our world in something fictional that at a given moment doesn't even follow basic principles. For example, why would you apply KE to a ship falling from space in a fraction of a second at relativistic speed when the impact does not even destroy a mountain? Sure, the ship may even be above monatanha, but in this case if it doesn't follow physics there is no need to use that for scaling, being that in the feat itself this contradicts itself. In other instantiations it may be different, but what matters is the scene you use to calculate
I don't see how, since equal forces cancel each other out. When a meteor falls from space it doesn't destroy the surface before impact
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But if we're saying Deku's feat can't be applied because it breaks the laws of physics and kinetic energy, All Might's feat would as well. These two examples are in the same boat. And it's not like Deku's jumps don't have kinetic energy. In order for him to jump that distance, his legs would have to generate force. And the manga at several points in the series does imply that the reason characters can move really fast is because of the force generated in their legs. Iida is literally a prime example of this. So by definition, it's impossible to say that any of Deku's speed feats aren't done by the force generated in his legs.
The only respectable conclusion here is that this rule is bullshit, at least in this scenario. And I'm not gonna sit here with you reinforcing my argument and arguing for well over several hours about something that should be common sense. I have walked that bridge several times in fact. I'm not doing it again.
Why the **** would you apply physics to a character who doesn't the city with a punch, but changes the weather? That's just as ridiculous as a ship not destroying the city but moving at relativistic speeds. If you wanna complain about how unrealistic and how much this defies physics, you've already humiliated yourself. Because All Might throwing a punch worth dozens of Megatons and not destroying the city is just as bad as what you're claiming that Steven Universe feat is.
Don't try and downplay it, because both feats fall under the same category. They're both unrealistic. One is just being discounted because the area around the feat isn't impacted at all, which you could say the same thing about my other example.
Most of the time when a meteor crash lands onto the Earth, it doesn't have a lot of kinetic energy. It burns up before it even hits the surface. It's not big, nor fast enough to leave that much of an impact on Earth or to create a crater before it burns up in the atmosphere. When have you ever heard of a meteor striking a city or specific location on Earth with the strength of an atomic bomb in modern-day humanity? ******* when? And even then, (and that's a big 'then.'), usually, on the rare occasion that the fragments of a meteor do travel onto Earth, their shock waves can shatter any nearby glass present in their wake.
And in the rare occasion that a meteor would strike the Earth with Megatons worth of KE, it would most definitely wipe whatever it was targetting if the air pressure generated by the force is high enough.
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