Definitive Value For Speed Blitzing

[BarryAllen2.0]

I was scrolling through the wiki and noticed that we don't have a definitive value for speed blitzing, or rather a specific number for how many times faster a character has to be to blitz another character. Yes, before I even get into this, I know that there are many different factors that go into this stuff to even have one, but I'd still like to have a discussion on this, and potientially, in the words of Matt Damon, "Science the Shit Out of this!". So, that being said, I'd like it if a mod could highlight this thread so others can see it and we can get this topic going. The reason I ask this is because what I will propose will need the consensus of the forum members just to get accepted. Now, first off, I'd like to start by saying that this proposal will help determine the speed of characters that have feats of Blitzing another character or have been in situations that imply they can blitz another character by establishing an "Average" or "Base Line" for how many times faster they need to be.

Basically speaking, my proposal is that we determine how fast a character needs to be by determining how fast an object has to be to at least to not be perceived by the average eye. Personally, I don't know how the speed at which the average eye can perceive things but I know some of you do, i'll just present the logic and allow someone better at math than I am calculate, though it's not hard toi be honest.

Starting with an EXAMPLE:

For arguments sake, iet's say that the average human can run up to 5 m/s but can perceive objects moving at around 450 m/s before the eye starts losing track of said object. We won't know exactly how fast the object has to be going to not be perceived at least but if we as a forum can come to a consensus on what's the slowest an object has to be moving to not be percieved, we can then use that as the basis for how fast a character has to be to speed blitz.

Further Break Down:

So, say that we all decided that the speed of the slowest bullet is the slowest an object has to be to blitz. If the average eye perception is 450 m/s (Don't know if true, just using as an example) and the slowest bullet is 762 m/s, that means the bullet is 1.69x faster than the perception of the eye at least based on what we know, we can then apply this to the characters.

Say for instance Character A has Mach 300 Reaction Speed, if we determine that being 1.69x faster is the base line for how fast Character B has to be to escape Character's A's perception, that would put Character B at Mach 507 at least depending on if they were unknown in speed to begin with. Calcs would still be god. The reason I say this would be a base line or an average is because when dealing with fiction, this stuff isn't always as cut and dry as that. There are instances where Characters can perceive an things yet still can't react such as here:

http://www.**********.com/black-clover/96/13 (Click to PG 14 aswell)

and there are times when a character is vastly faster. The thing is, that's alright. This is just an average for unknowns. If a calc comes through that quntifies a speed for a character, then we can adjust based on how the verse portrays speed, provided it makes sense to bump up or down from here. So If a character is Mach 29 in reaction speed and chacater B who is an unknown in speed who blitzes Character A or is in a situation that implies such, then applying the 1.69x faster for charcater B would have them at Mach 48+ until a calc comes through that puts them higher or lower. Say that character B is then later calced to be Mach 35, well, if the calcers deem that to make sense and the consesus is that they are right then adjust. Same goes for if Charatcter B was alternatively calced at mach 1000 instead.

We'd have that Base Line to remove unknowns then can readjust based on calcs that are accepted. This also can help in determining if Vs Matches has characters that can speed blitz the other when the difference isn't THAT obvious.

What do you guys think? What we need is:

• Consesus on what we deem to be the slowest object.

• Value for average perception of the eye.

 

[Ryukama]

Not giving an opinion on the thread yet. Just highlighting this for further staff input if needed.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Well i think it is a good idea that we determine the value where, the speed difference becomes blitzable, as for how we go about it, have no idea, so gonna listen to what the calc members have to say.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Following. Want to see what more knowledgeable people have to say.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

This does seem like an important discussion. But I don't think determining whether a character can speed blitz, is as simple as finding how many times faster they have to be from their opponent. Sometimes their opponent may have hax, or other attributes that make up for their disadvantage in speed.

For example. If a character is 10 times faster than their opponent, that may be a speed blitz if all other stats are equal (AP, durability etc...). But if the slower character has 1000 times the AP and durability, then the faster character's speed may not help them. Because, while they may be able to avoid most hits, if they get hit once, they're dead. Yet again, if the slower character has 1000 times the AP and durability, but the faster character is a billion times faster, then again, we may be able to say that the faster character wins via speed blitz.

A notable example of what I'm talking about is the verses discussion of Saitama vs Naruto. The consensus wasn't one sided at all, despite Saitama having a massive speed advantage. But Naruto had so much hax that it balanced out, and many people were going with Naruto for what seemed like legitimate reasons. But quite frankly, saying Saitama speed blitzes, was also reasonable enough to be counted as a vote.

Anyway, we probably can determine a theoretical multiple. Meaning we can say "the multiple is X amount, assuming all other stats and qualities are equal." But the vast majority of the time, two character's non-speed stats and abilities are not identical. So whether a character's speed advantage allows them to blitz or not, doesn't just depend on their speed. Their opponent's other parameters are also a factor in whether they get blitzed or not.

With all that said, we have to take each vs. match case by case. A character may or may not speed blitz even if their 10 or so times faster, depending on the other character's attributes.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

This is rather an interesting topic to put. I once heard that being just 2 or 3 times faster than someone is enough to make someone blitz the other. Though i can't say of how true this is so it's kind of really pointless to ask me about it.

Anyways, it's likely helpful to know how fast someone has to be to really be considered blitzing....on someone.....is that right?

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Only referring to Combat and Attack speed, Hop has always thought the bare minimum for a blitz is being too much faster or in certain cases, being on the next speed tier.

But, if it's like bottom 99.9% of superhuman's percentile and top .1% of peak human's percentile, that's extremely close, so much so that the tier might be different, but __m/s vs __m/s (and it's off by less than .5m/s or something) is not enough to be unfair, just like most people are in real fights. Some aren't athlete speed, but so high in regular human they can actually fight back. Sure, if we calced it, one combatant would be faster, however that would not matter being so close that it would be a blitz.

And to define blitz, it would mean there would be no means, even if speed was sort of close, to defend or react against a faster opponent, such as with ranged or area of effect abilities. Even if those powers are widespread, say like a shield, if it takes too long for that shield to go up, then they'll likely be attacked before being able to react or even prepare for an attack. Sure, FTL+ low end and FTL very high end are in the same area, but the sheer difference in very bottom and very top ends should be a blitz, technically. While they are in the same speed & AP tier it's really hard to say how much one opponent's speed stacks up to their enemy's.

 

[Antvasima]

I vaguely recall that the OBD calculated a value for this at some point.

Regardless, I would appreciate if somebody could inform all of our calc group members about this thread on their message walls, as we probably need an explanation page for this.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

@Ant

Hop is on it, b0ss

EDIT: Hop left all calc members a message and link to this thread on their walls.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Of course, no problem.

 

[Adam_of_darkness]

Following

 

[Nico-v11]

I'm gonna leave this thread here since the same topic was talked about:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/640389

 

[Antvasima]

@Nico Okay. Thanks.

 

[KamiYasha]

In my opinion, you only need to be faster. (lol)

1.69 is kinda way too much to use. For exaple, using your values...If X object is moving at 1.1x times faster (495 m/s) the object will be moving 45 meters faster in 1 second; still somewhat "perceptible", but your reactions aren't enough to "react" at it.

If we have a character with Mach 30 (1290 m/s) combat/reactions and there is an object moving at 1.1x times faster (1419 m/s) that is 129 meters faster.

You would be somewhat able to percieve the object but you won't be able to react to it.

Speed Blitz is regarded as "the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them."

At the very least you need to be 1.1 times faster than the opponent, but mostly depends on the combat and reaction speed of the opponent.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'll just say this.

The difference between, say, Mach 350 and Mach 351, is the same as the difference between your own speed and an object moving at the speed of sound.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

This is an interesting topic. By the looks of it, if all it takes to blitz someone is to be 1.1 times faster, matches with unequalized speed will be reduced severely.

 

[BarryAllen2.0]

So, I did some research and I came across this article that says the brain can process the information of images that that the retina for at least 13 milliseconds. This article also states that past studies originally had the value up at 100 milliseconds but that in their study, what a person could percieve startted to deteriorate at a range of 80-13 milliseconds "Generally". If this is to be believed then the mean would be:

100+80+13 / 3 = 64+ Milliseconds for the average eye perception speed.


Article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...e-human-image-takes-just-13-milliseconds.html


Also, I 'm curious what others have to say on what KamiYasha posted. Although, I will say i'd like to solve for how fast at least a "complete" blitz can occur in witch character A wouldn't percieve Character B. Similarly how Gai blitzed team 7 back in Naruto part 1 chunin exams or how Orihime didn't see ichigo move as an example, etc...

 

[LordXcano]

We very easily could calc the speed a character would need to be in order to blitz, but we call that calc-stacking.

Example:

Character A has 0.001 second reaction times (calc'd)

Character B punches them 20 times before they react

We use, say, 20 meters/0.001 seconds

Calc is rejected for using the speed of a previous calc to get a higher result

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Yes but it is not wrong. You can calc stack in real life and that would not be incorrect. Then again, Hop is not saying we make an exception.

 

[BarryAllen2.0]

I wouldn't call this calc stacking really. If a char'acter can percieve objects moving at say 1245 m/s and another blitzes or is implied to do as such, if we have already determined how many times faster a character needs to be (2x, 3x, 4x, etc..) then how is that calc stacking?

So for example if we agree to use the perception i found above in my previous post, lets say that in a 20 meter radius, perception is best used.


S = D/T


S = 20 meters (Area around a person in which an action can be reasonably processed) / 64 milliseconds (Average speed at which the brain can process information before perception becomes too deteriorated )


S = 312.5 m/s (Fastest an object can be to still be tracked by the Human Eye within that 20 meter radius before perception becomes too deteriorated)


Now, if we all can come to a consensus on the slowest object that escapes the human perception, we can find wxactly how fast on average sompthing has to be to blitz.


I will nominate the slowest bullet speed, which is 762 m/s. If we can come to a consensus on these things, that would mean that the on average, without a calc, a character has to be 2.43x faster than anothers react speed.


762 m/s / 312.5 m/s = 2.43


So, if character A is mach 30 in reaction speed and is blitzed by character B, character B would be mach 72.9 using this until a calc that is accepted comes through. Or, we can just ust Kami Yasha's value of 1.1 times faster. Of course i could be making no sense but i wouldn't call it calc stacking based on this being applicable to rl.

 

[Muuuuh]

@Barry, using Black clover as a example is not good since Asta have precog, Because this he can see the attack but cant react in that case, Similar to Sasuke with sharingan vs Lee

 

[BarryAllen2.0]

@Barry, using Black clover as a example is not good since Asta have precog, Because this he can see the attack but cant react in that case, Similar to Sasuke with sharingan vs Lee

It was meant to be an example of being able to still percieve yet not react.

 

[ThePerpetual]

I would think the value to blitz another character would be proportional to the amount faster the character being blitzed is to the one before, rather than static. Basically: if a Mach 4 could in theory blitz a Mach 1, that doesn't mean a Mach 104 could blitz a Mach 101 to even remotely close to the same extent.

The actual number, I think, would require some deeper research, just wanted to offer up my two cents...

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

So basically it's not adding but multiplication/ratio based. I compared something like this before in a (badly made) calc where I compared someone moving so slow is a snail's pace to someone. That makes more sense.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

If character's are racing in a straight line, then "blitzing" would be linear and not ratio based. E.g. if a character is going Mach 100, and the other character is going Mach 104, from the Mach 100 character's perspective, the Mach 104 character will appear to zip past the Mach 100 character at Mach 4.

I think in a fight though, neither character's speed will be constant. A given character's speed is likely to fluctuate throughout the fight. They may average Mach 80 in a fight, and peak at Mach 150. A slightly faster character may average at Mach 90 and peak at Mach 160. So even though one character is slower, there may be moments where they are at the same speed, or faster. In this case, I think the ratio between two character's speeds will be more important.

Also, reactions are important. The faster a character is, the "slower" they may precieve the world around them. So even though a character is Mach 100 in combat and reactions, they probably won't have much problem reacting to a Mach 104 character. In a race in a straght line, reactions aren't as important.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

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