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DC Comics - Post-Crisis Superman Early Key Proposal

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Firestorm808

Firestorm808

VS Battles
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Special thanks to Maddie for help in research and data collection.

Proposal:

Based on Superman's feat history, a canon and notable power increase, and an editorial letter, I propose adding in a Pre-Eradicator Absorption Key. A possible Pre-Mongul Training Key will be discussed at a later date.

Justification:

Post-COIE​

John Byrne​

  • Superman Vol 2 #1, January 1987 | John Byrne
  • Superman Vol 2 #2, February 1987 | John Byrne
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #585, February 1987 | John Byrne
  • Superman Vol 2 #3, March 1987 | John Byrne
    • Superman teleported to Apokolips by Darkseid’s Omega Beams
    • Darkseid moved so fast that Clark couldn't see him move.
    • Darkseid’s Pacifier Atomic Flame is blistering even to Superman.
    • Superman is stronger than a squad of Darkseid’s Shock Troopers
    • Superman is unsure if he can survive Apokolips Firepits
  • Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #426, March 1987 | Marv Wolfman, Jerry Ordway, John Byrne
    • Superman is fished out from the fire pits, still breathing.
    • Previously only Orion has survived.
    • Superman finds his mind muddled. His hands can be burned. Superman has been brainwashed to believe he is Darkseid’s son.
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #586, March 1987 | John Byrne
    • Superman’s amnesia robs him of his strength
    • Allegedly, Superman’s unlocked power is weaker than Darkseid’s.
    • Superman’s powers require his full active brain to drive them.
    • It will take strategic use of Orion’s and Lightray’s skills to stop Superman without killing him.
    • Orion’s Astro-Force can shatter worlds. He uses the Astero Force with surgical precision in order to just stun Superman without killing him.
    • Darkseid sends out omega beams with the intent to wipe Superman out in one blast. Superman guides the beams into Darkseid, resulting in a bright pink aura. Superman didn’t expect Darkseid to survive. Darkseid is still hurt by his full-power Omega Beams
    • Darkseid fires his Omega Beams with the intent to kill Superman, resulting in a dimmer Red Aura. This does not kill Superman. Darkseid says his Omega Force is spent, not at full power. Instead, he alters his current Omega Beams to attack Superman’s molecules.
      • Do you guys agree if Superman struck with a weaker Omega Beam due to the changes in color and effect?
    • Superman resists and punches Darkseid a few times.
    • Darkseid opens a Boom Tube, returning Superman to Earth.
    • Later revealed in New Gods #3 to be Desaad in disguise.
  • Superman Vol 2 #9, September 1987 | John Byrne
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #591, August 1987 | John Byrne
    • Alternate Superboy is stated as faster and stronger than Superman, fast enough to exceed light speed, and fast enough to break the time barrier. Superman manages to crab his ankle before Superboy reaches full speed. As they approach full speed, Superman gets dizzy from the speed. Superboy uses one last burst of speed to break the time barrier. Superman couldn't handle the strain and loses his grip on the ankle. | Limit
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #600, May 1988 | John Byrne
    • Different Worlds
    • Wonder Woman, meanwhile, quickly finds Hermes. She asks how this has happened, and he tells her that Darkseid has invaded Olympus.
    • Darkseid is displeased by the arrivals. His plans had so far progressed perfectly, and he doesn't want any interference. He send images to the heroes. First, Superman encounters an amorous Wonder Woman who throws herself at him. Wonder Woman encounters an arrogant Superman. The Superman is Kalibak in disguise, while the fake Wonder Woman is actually Amazing Grace. Both villains attack the heroes once their deception fails.
    • As Wonder Woman begins attacking Kalibak and Superman begins hammering away at Grace, both villains lead the heroes on a chase, bringing them close to each other before vanishing. As Superman and Wonder Woman encounter each other, they attack. Darkseid is pleased that the two heroes will destroy each other as he watches the titanic struggle. Soon, though, the battle crashes into the very room in which he stands, and the heroes face him, together. Superman explains the ruse. Both he and Wonder Woman realized the trick, and quickly knew who it was they fought. Under the cover of battle, they searched for Darkseid, and they finally found him.
    • Darkseid is unconcerned by this, planning to kill the heroes, but first he explains how Olympus owes it's existence to the creation of Apokolips and New Genesis. How energy from that creation struck Earth and spawned the gods, he will now take that and conquer Earth. Wonder Woman points out to him, though, that he has conquered nothing. The gods are not here. Without them, this is just a place. An angered Darkseid leaves, setting explosives to destroy Olympus and the heroes, but Hermes appears and tells them not to be concerned
  • Superman: The Power Within Storyline
    • Action Comics Vol 1 #601, May 1988 to Action Comics Vol 1 #658, October 1990
    • Darkseid made a machine that empowered both sides of the cult war.
    • Superman is hit twice and felt hurt by the enhanced tank and helicopter. | Limit
    • Soon, their power is increasing exponentially, preventing Superman from literally interfering with some kind of electrified force field being generated by the cult war.
    • Superman is teleported to an airless place. Without Air, he pushes himself to destroy the mechanical source of the cult energy.
    • Superman returns to Earth, catching his breath.
    • Darkseid reveals himself as the provider of the ever-increasing power of the Superman Cult War. Darkseid wanted the Superman Worshipers to witness his True Power compared to Superman and the false blessings given to them.
    • Action Comics Vol 1 #638, February 1989 | Roger Stern
      • Darkseid incapacitates Superman with a single blast. | Limit
    • Based on Darkseid's plan, is Darkseid's Cult Machine stronger than himself?
      • I interpret the scaling chain here to be: Darkseid > Max Machine Output to Cult War > Superman
  • Legion of Super-Heroes Vol 3 #48, July 1988 | Paul Levitz
  • Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #444, September 1988 | John Byrne

Dan Jurgens​

Post-Eradicator​

  • Superman: The Man of Steel Vol 1 #29, January 1994 | Louise Simonson
    • Superman moved fast almost enough to negate the effects of the temporal modulation field's Time Slow | Faster than before, Possibly Speed of Light
  • Arc
    • Action Comics Vol 1 #695, January 1994 | Karl Kesel
    • Superman: The Man of Steel Vol 1 #30, February 1994 | Louise Simonson
    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/DC_Comics_-_Lobo_Destroys_a_Planet | Multi-Continental level to Small Planet level
    • Lobo shattered a planet with a blast from his weapons.
    • Lobo states twice that Superman is stronger than last time.
    • Superman agrees twice that his powers are increasing.
    • Superman overcame the inertia of a ship the size of a small moon and throws it. | Class P | Low effort
    • They both survive a Force-Twelve Disintegration Beam | Low effort
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #696, February 1994 | Roger Stern
    • Superman feels stronger than ever.
    • His heat vision intensity increased.
    • Superman's strength has increased.
      Superman's cellular structure is enhanced compared to other Kryptonians.
    • Superman doesn't need to breathe oxygen anymore due to overcharged cells
    • Superman fights The Champion | Low effort
    • The champion could not stop an asteroid that caused global cataclysms. | Class P
  • Superman: The Man of Steel Vol 1 #31, March 1994 | Louise Simonson
  • Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #511, April 1994 | Karl Kesel
    • Superman mentions his increased powers.
    • According to Professor Hamilton, Superman is absorbing solar radiation and other energies much faster than ever before due to being irradiated by what he calls Kryptonite X. The Eradicator incident that recharged his powers foreshadowed his power increase. He says there is no physical way for Superman to expend his energy fast enough. His powers will continue increasing until his body cannot contain them.
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #698, April 1994 | Roger Stern
    • During the fighting, Superman unmasks a green-clad marauder to find the visage of Lex Luthor, Jr. During the fighting, Guardian notices an increase in the Man of Steel's size -- he has grown to eight feet -- his heat vision is also out of control and can't be turned off, destroying anything he looks at. Superman flies off to protect everyone. He immerses himself in the ocean. One hour later he has regained control of his powers.
    • Superman fights Parasite.
    • Parasite leeched out the excess energy Superman absorbed.
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #699, May 1994 | Roger Stern
    • According to Professor Emil, Superman is in good health. There's not a trace left of the exotic energies he detected in him the other day.
    • SM is stable. Physical stats seem unchanged, but he needs oxygen again. No longer increasing power due to the exotic energies.
  • Hunter Prey Storyline
    • According to the writer Dan Jurgen:
      • Darkseid was never set up to be the all-powerful type of being. To me, Highfather was always set up to be the more powerful, omnipotent sort of being than was Darkseid. Darkseid had power in that he could control the people around him. People were terrified of him. Darkseid is far less powerful than Superman-that it is Darkseid's political machinations and his dangerous mind that make him a threat to Superman, not his power.
      • Superman's abysmal performance against Doomsday is because of his morals limiting himself. If Superman had ignored morals and cuts loose in his first fight against Doomsday, Superman would have done better. Superman and Doomsday were roughly equivalent in terms of power in Hunter/Prey. Superman and Doomsday are above Darkseid.
    • Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey Vol 1 #1, April 1994 | Dan Jurgens
      • On Apokolips, Doomsday survives Darkseid's Omega Beams and defeats him.
    • Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey Vol 1 #2, May 1994 | Dan Jurgens
    • Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey Vol 1 #3, June 1994 | Dan Jurgens
  • Superman Vol 2 #90, June 1994 | Dan Jurgens
    • DC described their portrayal and depowering of Superman at the time.
    • No longer a planet juggler | Limit
    • Moving the Earth, the length of 5 of its diameter in a second is 1.21E+40 Joules / High 5-A.
    • 10 lengths at 4.8481747123552E+40 Joules / Low 4-C.
    • The entire point of the staff statement is to address general power concerns. I don't think they would mislead their readers with a Lifting Strength VS AP technicality. They don't intend to have Superman be at the above levels at the time.
  • Superman Vol 2 #0, October 1994 | Dan Jurgens
    • The staff elaborate on Superman's Eradicator Boost
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #704, November 1994 | David Michelinie
    • Superman confirms Eradicator and Superman are at the same tier of power, so at the very least, Superman is stronger than his pre-death self
  • Action Comics Annual Vol 1 #7, November 1995 | David Michelinie
    • Superman escapes the pull of a miniature black hole. | Unknown | High effort
  • Doomsday Annual, December 1995 | Jerry Ordway
  • Superman: The Man of Steel Vol 1 #52, January 1996 | Louise Simonson
    • Superman fights Cyborg Superman at Super Speed
    • CSM’s plasma beams can cover an entire city.
    • CSM is confident using the power output of the planet’s core can harm Superman.
      • At least Large Town level
      • He compares his power to what he was capable of back in Reign of Supermen, so we should refer back to that and scale it to that. | Small Country level to Multi-Continental level | Limit
  • Wonder Woman Vol 2 #111, July 1996 | John Byrne
    • Wonder Woman says the Artificial Doomsday hits like Pre-Death SM
    • Clone DD had the advantage over Wonder Woman
  • Wonder Woman Vol 2 #112, August 1996 | John Byrne
    • Clone DD is getting stronger during the fight by absorbing power from the generators
    • It takes WW and Champion to keep Doomsday off his feet, soon only able to contain DD.
    • At max generator output, DD's power is doubling with every step.
    • The Atlas Gauntlet can boost strength 10x but is uncontrollable to Diana.
    • With the Gauntlet of Atlas, Diana breaks through the amped DD's bone armor.
    • Scaling Chain:
      • Post-Death SM > Pre-Death SM = Original DD = Initial Clone DD > 1996 WW
      • Semi-Amped Clone DD > Champion + 1996 WW
      • 1996 WW 10x > Full Amped Clone DD
  • Wonder Woman Vol 2 #120, April 1997 | John Byrne
    • It's reiterated that the clone of DD was initially as strong as the original.

Superman Red/Blue​

  • Superman Vol 2 #122, April 1997 | Dan Jurgens
    • While temporarily deprived of the solar energy required to give him powers, Superman had developed energy-based abilities
    • While retaining most of his abilities, he could now also sense different kinds of energy, including the trail of radioactivity from a passing van, bolts of electricity and magnetic tractor beams rather than his original heat vision. He was also able to absorb the radiation, although this was incredibly painful. He also gained the ability to turn his powers "off", though this took time to control as he inadvertently fried a toaster at home. This switch to Clark Kent also left him as vulnerable as a normal human, which was a bit of a surprise to him when he stubbed his toe while answering the phone.
  • Man of Steel #68, June 1997 | Louise Simonson
    • Metallo absorbs the reactive energy of several nuclear reactors as it explodes. This is portrayed as a limit for Superman Blue
    • Superman Blue tries to render nuclear reactors | Up to Mountain level | Limit
  • JLA #7, July 1997 | Grant Morrison
    • The moon was crashing into Earth, so Superman amps his electrical energy to hold the moon back, this is a good feat of how much electromagnetic energy he can actually hold. | Class Z | High effort
  • Superman Red/Superman Blue, February 1998 | Dan Jurgens
    • A trap created by the Cyborg Superman working with Toyman, caused Superman to split into two beings who represented different aspects of his personality, though each believed himself to be the original
  • Steel Vol 2 #50, May 1998 | Christopher Priest
    • Superman Red can redirect 50 kilotons of energy | Town level | Moderate effort
  • Superman Vol 2 #135, May 1998 | Dan Jurgens
    • The Earth's core was destabilized beyond repair, and the Supermen used their limit to fix it. | Planet level from GBE | Limit
    • Following a battle with the Millennium Giants (Cabraca, Cerne and Sekhmet), the two Supermen merged and Superman returned to his normal powers and original costume.

Post-Red/Blue​

  • Superman Forever, June 1998
    • The new status quo was established
    • Following the closure of the Millennium Giants storyline, Superman is seen falling back to Earth toward Smallville (as a sort of echo of how he first came to Earth), where the Kents find him naked but back to his original appearance. Not only that, but Superman's original Kryptonian powers and abilities have also returned, which only makes him wonder at that point how he ever became "the Man of Energy" or how his two selves have fused back into one.
  • JLA Vol 1 #20, July 1998
    • The explanation is vague; Superman felt he was "rewarded" for saving the world, although he later claimed that he returned to normal when his electromagnetic energy dispersed.
  • Doomsday Wars
    • Superman: The Doomsday Wars Vol 1 #1, November 1998 | Dan Jurgens
      • Wonder Woman calls the JLA that fought Doomsday the first time "a weaker version"
      • The time Doomsday fought the JLA, they had Manhunter, Guy, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Maxima, and a few others
    • Superman: The Doomsday Wars Vol 1 #2, December 1998 | Dan Jurgens
      • Referencing the ending of Zero Hour, Superman's contributions wouldn't have meant anything if not for Waverider and Damage.
    • Superman: The Doomsday Wars Vol 1 #3, January 1999 | Dan Jurgens
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #753, April 1999 | Stuart Immonen, Mark Millar
    • Superman absorbs energy from the sun. Superman battles the Justice League, Orion, Big Barda, Superboy and Steel after flying near the sun to dispose of Earth's nuclear weapons under Dominus' influence. He takes a blast of Astro-Force from Orion. Even with the element of surprise they barely managed to subdue Superman after a difficult fight and Kyle had to synthesize Kryptonite in order to defeat Superman.
    • Superman stated after the fight that without his close exposure to the sun that the League might have killed him.
  • Superman Vol 2 #150, November 1999 | Dan Jurgens

Summary:
  • Key: Pre-Eradicator Absorption
  • Tier: Varies up to 6-B
  • Attack Potency/Durability/Striking Strength: Varies, up to Country level
  • Speed: FTL
Does anybody have thoughts or concerns on the matter?

@Confluctor
@Maverick_Zero_X
@KLOL506
@Armorchompy
@LordTracer
@Jared1111
@Antvasima
@DarkDragonMedeus
 
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I am not against this at all! Good job on collecting these all. And this would solve a lot of scaling issues we might have had.

I thought the sun eater explosion would be higher, on some other sites I saw high 4C. But this is good too.
 
How long does this last? It's weird to believe that nobody he fights in this key ends up scaling back to his stronger state, but if that's not the case then this is fine.
 
Armorchompy said:
How long does this last? It's weird to believe that nobody he fights in this key ends up scaling back to his stronger state, but if that's not the case then this is fine.
Click to expand...
The thing is, the same people he fought back then fought him again or others whom he fought later down the line. So unless all gets split, it won't affect the chain right now by a lot
 
I do 100% think Superman gets stronger after this point, but I don't think you can claim it's a 6-B to 4-B tier jump unless you're also going to argue other characters get stronger as well. This Superman could still fight characters like Darkseid, Mongul, and Etrigan, plus he has statements and feats scaling him to other characters like Martian Manhunter.
 
Pre to post eradicator is Tier 6 to Tier 5.

Post Mongul seems to be Tier 5 to Tier 4, but I'll get into that later.
 
Ehnkr2beboh said:
I do 100% think Superman gets stronger after this point, but I don't think you can claim it's a 6-B to 4-B tier jump unless you're also going to argue other characters get stronger as well. This Superman could still fight characters like Darkseid, Mongul, and Etrigan, plus he has statements and feats scaling him to other characters like Martian Manhunter.
Click to expand...
I have a scan that says the League got canonically stronger between Death of SM and Doomsday Wars.
 
Ehnkr2beboh said:
Can you please send it then?
Also, that still wouldn't cover 4-B characters like Darkseid and Orion or 5-A characters like Etrigan.
Click to expand...
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #586, March 1987
    • Orion had to be careful and use the Astro-Force (Stated to shatter worlds) with "surgical precision" to stun Superman without killing him.
  • Superman: The Doomsday Wars Vol 1 #1, November 1998
    • Wonder Woman calls the JLA that fought Doomsday the first time "a weaker version"
  • Arc
    • The Power of Darkseid! - Action Comics Vol 1 #637, January 1989,
    • The Power Within - Action Comics Vol 1 #638, February 1989
    • Darkseid incapacitates Post-Crisis Superman with a single, casual blast. One casual blast left Superman on the ground, too weak to even try stopping Darkseid from leaving.
  • Cosmic Odyssey Vol 1 #1, December 1989
    • On New Genesis, Darkseid easily bats away Superman.
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #753, April 1999
    • Superman absorbs energy from the sun. Superman battles the Justice League, Orion, Big Barda, Superboy and Steel after flying near the sun to dispose of Earth's nuclear weapons under Dominus' influence. He takes a blast of Astro-Force from Orion. Even with the element of surprise they barely managed to subdue Superman after a difficult fight and Kyle had to synthesize Kryptonite in order to defeat Superman. Superman stated after the fight that without his close exposure to the sun that the League might have killed him.
  • Superman Confidential Vol 1 #8, December 2007
    • In this comic, Superman hadn't met Highfather or Darkseid yet.
    • On Earth, Darkseid easily backhands Superman.
Etrigan scaled from Lobo rather than Superman.
Superman has consistently lost to New Gods until after mongul training.
 
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Firestorm808 said:
Action Comics Vol 1 #586, March 1987
  • Orion had to be careful and use the Astro-Force (Stated to shatter worlds) with "surgical precision" to stun Superman without killing him.
Click to expand...
Why would this scale Orion above Superman? It's not like he was beating up Superman here or anything, they just had a brief fight (while Lightray was helping him) so that he could stop Superman to settle things. It's not like Orion was toying with Superman or anything.
Also, Superman goes on to fight and overwhelm Darkseid after this, as I'm sure you're aware of.
Firestorm808 said:
  • Superman: The Doomsday Wars Vol 1 #1, November 1998
    • Wonder Woman calls the JLA that fought Doomsday the first time "a weaker version"
Click to expand...
This isn't really a statement about the League members getting stronger, it's just saying the current roster is stronger. The time Doomsday fought the JLA they had Manhunter, Guy, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Maxima and a few others iirc, which isn't as good as a team of Manhunter, Diana, Flash, Plastic Man and Orion. So I don't think this can be used to say all the JL Members got stronger, just that the current team is better.
Firestorm808 said:
  • Arc
    • The Power of Darkseid! - Action Comics Vol 1 #637, January 1989,
    • The Power Within - Action Comics Vol 1 #638, February 1989
    • Darkseid incapacitates Post-Crisis Superman with a single, casual blast. One casual blast left Superman on the ground, too weak to even try stopping Darkseid from leaving.
Click to expand...
Looking throughout the arc, Superman was fatigued, as he had just fought and been damaged previously (633), before going through a lot of pain trying to stop a machine (634), which is stated to have been a great cost to him (635).
Also, I notice the Imgur file states this to be Pre-Crisis Superman. While the publication date is definitely post Crisis, I may want to look into if there's any reason to believe that.
Cosmic Odyssey Vol 1 #1, December 1989
  • On New Genesis, Darkseid easily bats away Superman.
Click to expand...
Superman gets right back up and is still confident in being able to take Darkseid on despite this, so I don't think this proves much.
If an interaction this brief counts, this moment of Superman sending Orion flying from Cosmic Odyssey #3 would mean Superman > Orion.
Firestorm808 said:
Click to expand...
This being early career makes it less important than later examples, like Superman beating Darkseid as I mentioned before.
Also, in issue #10 Superman endures the Omega Beams for an extended period of time, so while Supes is definitely not as powerful as Darkseid in this run, it's not a 6-B to 4-B gap.
Firestorm808 said:
Etrigan scaled from Lobo rather than Superman.
Click to expand...
Doesn't change that Pre Death Superman consistently scales to Etrigan, such as when he fought and overwhelmed him in the Demon #28, or when he fought and gained the upperhand in Action Comics #587.

To add to Supes scaling to New Gods in this era, Superman also has had a pretty even fight with Kalibak (AC Annual 3)
Also, I'm not sure what the segment about Action Comics #753 was supposed to prove?
 
Ehnkr2beboh said:
Also, I notice the Imgur file states this to be Pre-Crisis Superman. While the publication date is definitely post Crisis, I may want to look into if there's any reason to believe that.
Click to expand...

The scan was previously labeled as precrisis due to assuming on the art style before I had to do source checks.

Here is the wiki page.
dc.fandom.com

Action Comics Vol 1 637

"Speedy: "Exiles Part 2"": The synopsis for this issue has not yet been written. Action Comics #637 is an issue of the series Action Comics (Volume 1) with a cover date of January, 1989. Featured Characters: Speedy Supporting Characters: Lian Harper Antagonists: Purse Snatcher Other Characters...
dc.fandom.com dc.fandom.com
 
In any case, I'll be drafting a graphical representation when available so we can see the feat distribution.

Referring back to the Editorial letter, Superman wasn't written to be above planet level at the time.
 
Local Superhero still can't be higher than 4-B, you hate to see it.

But yeah all these keys seem totally justified to me, since clearly Superman operated at varying power levels throughout his Post-Crisis career.
 
Here's a brief summary of the "Superman: The Power Within" Pre-Death Storyline Climax.

  1. Darkseid made a machine that empowered both sides of the cult war.
  2. Superman is hit twice and felt hurt by the enhanced tank and helicopter.
  3. Soon, their power is increasing exponentially, preventing Superman from literally interfering with some kind of electrified force field being generated by the cult war.
  4. Superman is teleported to an airless place. Without Air, he pushes himself to destroy the mechanical source of the cult energy.
  5. Superman returns to Earth, catching his breath.
  6. Darkseid reveals himself as the provider of the ever-increasing power of the Superman Cult War. Darkseid wanted the Superman Worshipers to witness his True Power compared to Superman and the false blessings given to them.
  7. Darkseid incapacitates Superman with a single blast.
From Darkseid's plan, Darkseid's Cult Machine is not stronger than himself. The scaling chain seems to be: Darkseid > Max Machine Output to Cult War > Superman
 
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Hey, Firestorm, another feat for Superman pre-Eradicator happens during Swamp Thing Vol. 2 #79 (1988)

He could tag and perceive Swamp Thing who was traveling at lightspeed and by charging himself with sunlight, trapped him and forced him into going FTL.
 
Also, for early post crisis speed, John Stewart's ring has casually travelled 20 lightyears in a second during the Cosmic Odyssey. Can't link the feat right now, but it's in the fourth issue, around page 40. It also had John's pretty casual dwarf star feat
 
For the purpose of this thread, we want to focus on feats and interactions that involve superman first. Do we have any feat interactions between Superman and John in this era?
 
@Confluctor
@Maverick_Zero_X
@KLOL506
@Armorchompy
@LordTracer
@Jared1111

Should back scaling be applied in the current context of Superman's growth?

Take, for example, the following hypothetical:

1990

Character A: Shown to have consistency/limits of Tier 7.

Character B: Generally seen as on par w/ Character A. No feats at this time.

1995

Character A: Has canonically grown stronger over the years, showing a new consistency/limits of Tier 6.

Character B: A generally static character with no canonical sign of growth. Has fought on par w/ Character A again. Now has a Tier 5 feat.

Should the interaction with Character A in 1990 be considered an outlier, a peak rating of Tier 5, or back scaled to Tier 5?
 
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In case of superman, would definitely consider a peak thing (since he now has a power mechanism and all). In general, however, I would basically consider it an outlier ig unless there is a special power mechanism involved.
 
Confluctor said:
In case of superman, would definitely consider a peak thing (since he now has a power mechanism and all). In general, however, I would basically consider it an outlier ig unless there is a special power mechanism involved.
Click to expand...
Is the at peak rating compatible with the staff letters regarding the depowering of Superman at the time?
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Confluctor
@Maverick_Zero_X
@KLOL506
@Armorchompy
@LordTracer
@Jared1111

Should back scaling be applied in the current context of Superman's growth?

Take, for example, the following hypothetical:

1990

Character A: Shown to have consistency/limits of Tier 7.

Character B: Generally seen as on par w/ Character A. No feats at this time.

1995

Character A: Has canonically grown stronger over the years, showing a new consistency/limits of Tier 6.

Character B: A generally static character with no canonical sign of growth. Has fought on par w/ Character A again. Now has a Tier 5 feat.

Should the interaction with Character A in 1990 be considered an outlier, a peak rating of Tier 5, or back scaled to Tier 5?
Click to expand...
It really depends which is more consistent. If he has more Tier 7/6 anti-feats (not feats, anti-feats) than he has scaling to people who are tier 5, then you ignore tier 5, otherwise, other way around.

If it's difficult to determine you can just do what I did with Hawkman characters for Post-Flashpoint and do "At least TIER, possibly/at peak TIER"
 
I have a few more thoughts on some of the specific feats that I'll try to comment on when I have the time, but for now I'll just say that I still think "Varies, 6-B, up to 4-B" makes sense. There's a few examples I'll try to post later of Pre-Death Superman still being treated as on the other League members' levels during the 90s/2000s, with the example with the Clone Doomsday in the OP being one of them.

On the topic of Darkseid scaling, I do want to bring up some more things about what Firestorm brought up, but for now I just want to mention DoS Doomsday being one of, if not Superman's strongest opponent yet (Superman #74), so he should at least be relative to Darkseid.
 
Hmm, I guess so. I think the idea would be that characters who scale off of this version would be scaled to the 6-B version (granted I don't think that many characters scale off of him). Maybe he could be 6-B while holding back, or should it be "Varies, at least 6-B, up to 4-B"?
 
I have labeled the Pre-Death feat calculations with the effort and limitations.

The limits are in Tier 6, with 6-B at the highest.

Edit: High 6-B
 
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