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DC Animated Movies Universe Discussion Thread 3

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RanaProGamer

RanaProGamer

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Hey, it has been a while since we've done this. So, going from the old threads we have had, there seem to be some slight issues with the ratings of some of the profiles from the verse which was pointed out, but couldn't be acted upon due to the forum migration. So, without further ado, let's get this show on the road.

List of all issues:
1. Flash's 8-A AP feat calc is considered unusable due to the change in how KE calcs work. Potentially downgraded to 9-A from scaling to Parademons? Or an upgrade for being able to stagger Darkseid?

2. Aside from Superman and Batman, most of the JL members scale to one another which is the reasoning for an 8-A rating as well as those who scale to them, there's a scene of Wonder Woman taking a beating from a serious Darkseid in JL War and even getting up from it seconds later. So JL members might potentially all be Low 7-C? Or could this mean that Darkseid was still holding back since his Omega Beams one shot and killed Aquaman who scales to the other members?

3. The same as 2, but with another issue. Weather Man in base could take hits from the Flash, after being corrupted by Trigon, he could later take hits from Superman (though it was stated by Batman that Supes was holding back in order to gather info) and needed a 3 Kiloton explosion to take him out. However, when WW, a member of JL who is only second to Superman in strength, was also corrupted by Trigon, she still lost to a weakened Clark holding back. Does this mean that Superman/Darkseid/Doomsday > Weakened Superman > Corrupted WW > WW = JL? So do the JL members scale to Superman, Darkseid, Doomsday at all? If not, what feat would they scale to? Is this just another form of inconsistency?
 
You should ask the staff and experienced members listed in the verse page to comment here via their message walls.
 
Flash shouldn't scale to Darkseid imo. He's never really dealt any notable damage to any of the heavy hitters, and he's consistently taken out of the fight by a single good hit by them. He has a feat where he creates a whirlpool during the fight against Darkseid which may be usable.

Darkseid had no reason to hold back, and there's instances of characters like Shazam surviving Omega Beams. I've got a whole list of nearly all of the instances where JL members other than Superman have been shown to scale to Low 7-C characters; there's a lot.

This argument feels circular to me. Weather Wizard was amped, but he was also able to make Superman bleed with his attacks, so he's clearly somewhat comparable. Given that the base Weather Wizard was beaten easily by a casual Flash, why would Wonder Woman, who is far above Flash in base, not be notably above Superman? Also, I'm pretty sure Superman had healed by that point. I think that some characters when possessed simply just didn't get any stronger.
 
The Weather Wizard making Superman bleed aspect can be explained by the fact that Superman is weak to magic and even WW pointed it out. Especially since Superman has been taken out by magic-based weapons quite easily before like the Trident Of Poseidon. I think it makes sense that Supes healed before he fought Corrupted WW and Flash since Supes was drained of his power by liquid kryptonite, yet removing it healed him instantly.
 
Superman also hit possessed Weather Wizard a couple of times iirc without causing notable damage.
 
True, but remember that Batman stated that they needed info since Robin took out Weather Wizard instead of restraining him which was what Superman was trying to do. Also, Weather Wizard appeared to be covered in the magic aura, so that might be another explanation.
 
Superman's attacks aren't suddenly weaker against magical beings, he's just more vulnerable to it. Also Wonder Woman was the one who restrained Weather Wizard in the end.
 
I’ve said this before but

No one should scale to supes and Darkseid but Doomsday

Everyone else gets clapped rather spectacularly with stuff like most of the League being trounced by DD and even while blinded Darkseid was too powerful for the League (except Supes) to actually overpower

There’s plenty of cratering feats you could use and I recall Medusa destroying a huge building which could easily yield Toer 8 for WW
 
Hellbeast said:
I’ve said this before but

No one should scale to supes and Darkseid but Doomsday

Everyone else gets clapped rather spectacularly with stuff like most of the League being trounced by DD and even while blinded Darkseid was too powerful for the League (except Supes) to actually overpower
Click to expand...
What about WW taking hits from a serious Darkseid and getting right back up seconds later?
 
Here's a compilation I made of nearly all of the times other JL members scale to guys like Superman, Doomsday and Darkseid, along with arguments against commonly cited anti-feats. I left out a couple of times like the Throne of Atlantis battle where Aquaman draws blood from Orm who previously tanked Superman's heat vision and any instances in Flashpoint Paradox due to the former being full of PIS and the latter having potentially different power levels for everyone except Flash. To say that the Justice League without Superman fought Darkseid for over ten minutes while being magnitudes lower than him is ridiculous; they're the ones who blinded him, and Darkseid continuing to give them hassle is a feat of stamina for him.

Other feats I remember include Flash's whirlpool in War, Shazam destroying a skyscraper when fighting Wonder Woman in Flashpoint Paradox, the trident causing a massive tsunami in Throne of Atlantis and potentially Shazam causing a massive explosion in Apokolips War.
 
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I suppose the proposed scaling makes sense, I agree with the Flash downgrade and fine with Superman and Doomsday being on Darkseid's level.
 
GyroNutz said:
Other feats I remember include Flash's whirlpool in War, Shazam destroying a skyscraper when fighting Wonder Woman in Flashpoint Paradox, the trident causing a massive tsunami in Throne of Atlantis and potentially Shazam causing a massive explosion in Apokolips War.
Click to expand...
If I remember right, the AP for destroying an average Skyscraper is Low 7-C, pretty consistent don't you think?
 
RanaProGamer said:
What about WW taking hits from a serious Darkseid and getting right back up seconds later?
Click to expand...
That’s the thing

She clearly wasn’t doing much to him on her own without cheap shots or targeting the eye

And it’s directly contradicted by stuff like her being knocked out by DD or being mutilated by Paradooms

At most she could get Low 7-C for weapons and shield
 
I agree. Only Doomsday can compare to Supes and Darkseid. Diana harmed Darkseid but she aimed for weak spost and had her sword and aside from that, she wasn't doing any notable damages. Not to mention Darkseid taking GL constructs without being phazed.
 
Ok, so at the very least we have all agreed that Flash should be downgraded, which means even Reverse Flash will be downgraded. But the feat they will scale ti is the whirlpool created by Flash. As for the JL members, would it be safe to say that at the very least they are relative to Superman/Darkseid/Doomsday? If I remember right, Supergirl from the DCAU has the same rating as Superman with the reasoning being 'Not too far off in strength from Superman'. Could the same be applied or is the power gap way too much?
 
Sounds good

Once again the JL members should not scale to Supes at all for reasons I brought up earlier

The DCAU should probably have it's own revisions but I don't know if anyone's planning that
 
@RanaProGamer the baseline calc for destroying a Skyscraper is 8-A+.

@Hellbeast Wonder Woman's fight against Doomsday is a point in favour of her scaling. She holds her own for a good 2 minutes and survives being pummeled to the ground, all while weakened previously. She also sliced off the arm of a Paradoom in a single swipe. Hal Jordan blocked a single omega beam and redirected it, and harmed him a few times in their second encounter too when he was concentrating more. You can find a list of almost all the occurrences where JL members or people on their level scale somewhat to Superman, Darkseid and Doomsday.
 
It's a weird area. Like I get them scaling, but its essentially all just "Wasn't one shot, but still stomped" which isn't the best scaling line. Like we do rate them at Tier 7 we should note how inferior they are to the Superman-Class dudes.
 
They're not really stomped in all the examples I've shown. Overpowered, sure, but they'd be back-scaling anyway.
 
Here are my proposed ratings for the DCAMU cast. It's also in my sandbox.

  • Top tiers like Superman, Darkseid and Doomsday stay at Low 7-C for obvious reasons, with Darkseid and Doomsday upscaling from Superman.
  • Wonder Woman, Shazam, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman and all those who scale to them (e.g. Etrigan) become Low 7-C, downscaling from Superman and possessed Weather Wizard, with the feats I listed above being put on their profiles.
  • Cyborg becomes "Likely Low 7-C", as he's harmed the likes of Aquaman and Wonder Woman, but has also had his arms ripped off by the former, along with the likes of Darkseid. 8-A would also work, via downscaling, consistent with scaling above a weakened Superman's 8-B+ feat.
  • Green Lantern becomes "9-A physically, Low 7-C via Green Lantern ring". Physically, Hal Jordan has been harmed by Parademons and John Stewart is even harmed by Batman in Justice League: Dark. With his ring constructs, Hal Jordan can somewhat hold his own against the likes of Superman (+ all the feats I listed above)
  • Flash could downscale in a similar fashion to Cyborg would or simply be 9-A without a better feat.
 
I'm unsure about downscaling; that's often been considered a rather questionable practice and a few other staff members such as Matt want to make it outright taboo. Where does the 8-A stuff come from again? I otherwise agree with the top people being Low 7-C and I think 9-A Flash is reasonable.
 
8-A+ came from a feat Superman had where he no-sold an explosion at that level. There were problems with the calc though, but now Superman scales to possessed Weather Wizard who survived a "3 kiloton impact", which is Low 7-C. I really don't think there's much of a problem with downscaling in this instance given the sheer number of instances the other JL members have of surviving and harming the "top tiers".
 
Btw, would Trigon Possessed Superman from Apokolips War be in Superman's profile or Trigon? I feel like we can add the key and give it 'Low 7-C, likely higher' since he was stomping Darkseid.
 
Ok sorry for the late reply but I'll make my issues with Gyro's scaling known now

Supes VS Lantern

* From the very start we see Hal is out of his depth (And notice how he shatters Hal's construct)

* From here onwards we see Supes isn't taking the fight seriously

* Hal sneaks up on Supes and just look at how casual he bats aside the projectiles (Hell the one that lands doesn't even do much damage to him)

* Supes barely strains with those chains and even quips at how funny it is Lantern resorts to that (Hell the mere Shockwave shatters his shield)

* Bruce even says there's no way they'll win this fight and even makes the point that al they did was piss him off

* After this Supes dominates the two whom are confined to a rapidly cracking Shield which Hal is barely holding together.

* Oh and Supes easily shatters that by the end with Hal seeming confident that he'd kill them with this barrage (Considering Hal's cockiness that's a likely bet)

* Hell they only stop the fight because Bruce reveals he knows who Clark is

TLDR: Supes in this fight is by no means taking it seriously. He pretty much admonishes and knocks aside the two heroes and hell, he's only trying to get information on the Boxes. Bruce even mentions that, even at this point in his career, that Clark doesn’t go for lethal force which says even more about his approach to the fight. The instant he gets mad he's knocking the two around like fodder and GL (who's visibly straining) is forced into an entirely defensive position that is rapidly giving way.

At no point in this fight does Hal come off as remotely comparable to Big Blue and it's overall a poor showing to use. Even with the idea of Hal growing stronger the harder he pushes his will he's still clearly outmatched beyond the point of backscaling. While Hal isn;t taking it seriously initially, neither is Supes and it's when he gets serious that the scaling really doesn't hold up

To use this as justification for scaling you’d basically have to cherry pick select examples while also missing the clear flow of and intent behind the fight scene

Justice League VS Darkseid

* I see you're ignoring that this was not only a cheap shot (Seriously the man wasn't even on guard here) but Darkseid was also significantly outnumbered

* Also no he wasn't; Darkseid was simply knocked back (He seems more annoyed then anything)

* And immediately after Darkseid barrels through Hal's construct without even looking at him

* And look, Hal with his shield is one shot (Yet again funnily enough) only for Darkseid to immediately take Shazam and Diana

* While Shazam survives this he does absolutely no damage and is immobilized in two hits

* This is by no means a good example, Darkseid has an eye destroyed (Already quite painful) and has been fighting the JL for an extensive period by himself.

* Parademons are absolutely irrelevant so idk why you brought them up

* Darkseid is blocking several blasts from Shazam here and his defense is only broken by Cyborg hitting from behind

* Hal even remarks how Darkseid is still standing after being blinded by the League (Cyborg even implies that sending him home is the only way they beat him)

* We also see a weakened Darkseid still standing against a combined effort from Hal, Shazam and Flash even after all the abuse he's taken this fight

* And look how he just swats these guys aside when the Tube's pulling power is lessened

TLDR: Darkseid is absolutely not threatened overtly by these people. The League has to resort to a combination of sneak attacks, concentrated assault on his weak points (Eyes) and finally even BFR to beat him with Darkseid not only being fatigued from all the punishment he's suffering but also being majorly outnumbered by his foes. The only people that do respectably here are WW and Superman whom are very easily the strongest League members present in this film.

The entire fight is a clear indicator that the League are written as substantially inferior to Darkseid, especially at the start where they seem an inconveniance to him. There is barely any grounds for anyone to backscale (With one exception but I'll get to that)

Everything from Apokalips War

While it's true that the fight with Apokalips is only snapshots, Clark's exposition seems to make note of how much of a massacre this was and the shots show that. We see Mera getting her skull crushed, Hawman getting his wings clipped and Hal being embarrassed yet again. Why would the writers select these images if not to specifically show how outmatched the JL and it's affiliates are here against Darkseid's forces. We see no indication this was anything but a blood bath so it's weird to claim the gap isn't wide here. Even with the numbers edge there’s still tons of evidence supporting Darkseid being above the average Leaguer (We even see Darkseid bisecting Aquaman with one attack)

The Paradooms restraining Supes is lifting strength, not AP.

Shazam’s bolt is solid but it’s also a suicide play so it’d at most mean he can summon lightning superior to his physicals. He’s injured sure but not to the point where his normal attacks would kill him like that

We also see that Darkseid soloes the entire GLC with ease which is also the writers showing just how outmatched the DC heroes are here and signifying his superiority over not only Hal and John but the entire Corps

There's no ground for the majority scaling anywhere close to Darkseid here

Scaling

You do make some good points here tho and I find myself agreeing with you on WW more then not. She has several instances of not being drastically weaker then the top tiers and seems to be the strongest JL member not named Superman with her performances against DD and Darkseid as well as her taking on three bloodlusted League members by herself in Apokalips War. She probably can downscale and I can also see Orm and Arthur scaling with their Trident (This wouldn't scale to physicals imo but there's a good case for their Trident being this strong)

Lex has no real Antifeats so he just scales regardless (I think Raven would too since she deconstructs his armor)

Hal, Flash and co should definitely scale to their own feats here tho since they're clearly much weaker (Qawsed even notes they're really easily being outmatched here). Ideally we'd calc some of their feats which should easily be Tier 8 or so.

So that would mean tthe tiering looks like this

Low 7-C:
Supes
Doomsday,
Darkseid
Raven (With magic)
Lex (With Powersuit)
Wonder Woman
Etrigan
Orm and Arthur with the Trident

X Tier: Everyone else on the League
 
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Even if this is the case, didn't Cyborg like accidentally one shot Wonder Woman and gave her a minor concussion?
 
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