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@Antvasima
Can you help me?
Can you help me?
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Dark Tower: High 1-A Content Revision
- Thread starter Jason_Voorhees1986
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the_doctor
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More bumps
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It's sad that this debate has gone on for so long.
the_doctor
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Just wait for sure someone will come, all admins are busy and they won't be able to always come.
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I heard Ultima has been hanging out with Gandalf and Frodo lately. I hope it doesn't take too long to get from middle earth to VSBW.
the_doctor
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He's now arguing in another character thread, just wait.
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To my understanding, you can't have multiple things be High 1-A+, for the same reason why you can't have separate things be Tier 0Are any of you willing to help out here please?
I'm not sure how you can have fundamentally separate beings all embody every aspect of Logical space at once.
For the thread, the 1-A+ reasoning makes sense from what I can see, though the Macro-Universe being beyond the framework in a comparable Real-Unreal capacity, I'm not entirely seeing. If explained I can see that and everything connected to it being High 1-A though.
EDIT: I'll guess I'll wait for the OP when they update stuff.
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It saddens me that an admin is writing at this hour because I had prepared this CRT quite randomly so I started writing a much more in-depth cosmology page yesterday. And since the day I opened the CRT, many of my ideas have changed considerably (because I understood most of the events only after reading the books for the second time). I will finish the cosmology page tomorrow, please do not write anything to this CRT until then, including you.
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But I think I can answer that. From what I can see, there can't be more than one STRUCTURE or PLACE High 1A+ (at most 2 if there are really noteworthy contexts) But as far as I understand, more than one character can be High 1-A+ because the position and power of these characters on these structures are very important. It's clear that there are multiple High 1-A+ entities in the updated World of Darkness profiles.
The Wyld
Man has attempted to harness and control the raw forces of nature and subdue that which he feels lies within his dominion since he learned to sharpen spearheads and cook food with flame. The farther along this path of existence that man has traveled throughout his tenure on earth, the more...
vsbattles.fandom.com
The Buddha (World of Darkness)
Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, the Enlightened One, is the founder of Buddhism. The Buddha founded his religion with a sermon entitled "The turning of the Wheel of Law" to five disciples. From this humble beginning grew a religion that would spread from his native home of India all the way to...
vsbattles.fandom.com
The Weaver (World of Darkness)
As the strands of The Weaver choke the world further and further, many Garou wonder if the grand spider is also a threat on the level of the Wyrm. According to legend, the Weaver ran mad first and then drove the Wyrm insane as well. Now her favoured children, humanity, stand astride the world...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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You can have multiple High 1-A, but only the first variant.
You can't that's one of the problem with this thread. I've talked to Ultima and he seems to not agree with the ratings as well. Though, he can always come to the thread to express his reasons directly.
They're all manifestations of the Supernal and all connected as actualized conception of that High 1-A+(Type 2) structure which works, but yours doesn't.But I think I can answer that. From what I can see, there can't be more than one STRUCTURE or PLACE High 1A+ (at most 2 if there are really noteworthy contexts) But as far as I understand, more than one character can be High 1-A+ because the position and power of these characters on these structures are very important. It's clear that there are multiple High 1-A+ entities in the updated World of Darkness profiles.
The Wyld
Man has attempted to harness and control the raw forces of nature and subdue that which he feels lies within his dominion since he learned to sharpen spearheads and cook food with flame. The farther along this path of existence that man has traveled throughout his tenure on earth, the more...
The Buddha (World of Darkness)
Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, the Enlightened One, is the founder of Buddhism. The Buddha founded his religion with a sermon entitled "The turning of the Wheel of Law" to five disciples. From this humble beginning grew a religion that would spread from his native home of India all the way to...
The Weaver (World of Darkness)
As the strands of The Weaver choke the world further and further, many Garou wonder if the grand spider is also a threat on the level of the Wyrm. According to legend, the Weaver ran mad first and then drove the Wyrm insane as well. Now her favoured children, humanity, stand astride the world...
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For these, that's what I said this:
The WoD people are connected aspects to a greater thing from my hazy memory. It's like how in Trinitarianism you have three aspects/beings embodying the same larger co-substantial being.
If the Dark Tower people were aspects of the same force I could get the High 1-A+ rating, but from what being presented that's not the case.
I'm not seeing where the variants are at on the Tiering system stuff, but if you mean you can have multiple High 1-A+ people without them being connected, I'm not sure how that works.
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They must be connected, yes, I already pointed that out(If they scale from the same source).
I was saying High 1-A+(Type 1) can have multiple profiles since its definition unlike High 1-A+(Type 2) has leeways for more than one being/place/object.
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@Antvasima I've completely updated this content revision, can you tag a few staff members so that someone else can see this revision? Thanks a lot
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@Qawsedf234 I updated the title, can you take a look at it again?
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From what I can see:
- The Macrocosmos are being treated as being 1-A+, when that's not supported. There's no given unrealness difference between them, just that the next layers are incomprehensibly larger than the last. The most you'd get with them is High 1-B+ to Low 1-A. The mirage comparison is a weak usage of R>F in my mind because the text even describes it as "almost like", meaning they're not actually mirages.
- The Dark Tower being 1-A+, like I said previously, is fine. It being High 1-A is reliant on an improper base scaling so I don't agree with it
- The Guardians, Prism and Demons assuming the "all exist in his mind thing" is legitimate without further context, have justification for High 1-A
- The issue I have with Gan being High 1-A+ is this line
- From my understanding, a High 1-A can't be born from another High 1-A and ascend to High 1-A+. They should always be that rating if it exists, additionally there's a difference from encompassing the Three Schools of Logical Thought and something just encompassing all possibilities in a set array of stuff
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Yeah, I had the same thoughts and so did Ultima. High 1-A for Gan being a layer above the previous structure is fine. Though, the Prim is ever much a part of Gan as it is him since the soupy primordial water emanates/flows from his body.
So I personally say 1-A+ for the Tower. High 1-A for the Deadlights, Maturin, and the other beam guardians that exist outside the structure and in some bizarre ways “encompass it.” So Gan would have a layer above the rest. The comics are also very inconsistent with the actual story.
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There is some confusion here and I will clear it up now.
At the same time, the answer I will give will be valid for this as well. First of all, the Divine Creator "Final Other" (we call him the true Gan) and the Prim-born Gan are not the same. Gan born of Prim is an incarnation of the true Gan.
Gan, who was allegedly born here, is the Dark Tower itself. (Gan's name can be used for both Dark Tower and the actual creator.)
As you can see, Roland defines Dark Tower as Gan here. Because the real Gan does not appear in any novel except IT.It is clear that the real Gan is far superior to the apex beings Pennywise and Maturin as stated in the cosmology page.
As you can see, the “Real Gan” is on top of everything here. So, he is not born from Prim as stated in the comic book The Gunslinger Born. Because he exists in the Macroverse, which is an infinity greater than Prim. This confirms that he is not an entity that later rose to the High 1-A+ tier.
Now is the time to fix this problem. I just said that Dark Tower is not the real Gan, in which case it doesn't seem to be a problem for a much higher scale entity to create a lower tier entity. But this is still not the only explanation. The Dark Tower is a structure that emerged from Prim's own water. This means that Dark Tower is a structure that shares the same plane with Prim, rather than a structure composed of different materials.The Tower first appears thanks to the water of Prim, and both are described as archetypal structures. A similar definition.In this case, you may ask why I said infinite layer on High 1-A for Dark Tower and infinite layer on High 1-A + an extra layer for Prim. The main answer to this problem is of course the Guardians.
The mirage analogy is certainly a very weak context on its own, I agree with you on that, but that is not why I trust it. In fact, in the same text, Ralph Roberts says that the levels he is at are almost like a mirage, and it becomes clear that he has risen to higher levels. And at one of these levels, he instantly states that the level he is at is real life. Why should this be taken into consideration? Because the world that Ralph defines as the real reality is the town of Derry, the reality we are familiar with. Rising through the levels, Ralph can easily ascend to higher levels thanks to his dimensional perception ability. This transforms the mirage metaphor from a weak context into a highly coherent and appropriate one.
Is this because you dropped the tier 1-A+ to High 1-B+ or is there another reason?
Okey. So are you still undecided about High 1-A+?
As I said at the beginning, Dark Tower/Gan and Final Other/Gan are not the same and there is a huge difference between them. Actually the only reason we call Final Other Gan is because Gan is a stereotypical proper noun, otherwise Final Other doesn't have a specific name. But by definition Dark Tower/Gan is definitely his avatar.
Honestly, please just state your own opinions. Even if Ultima doesn't actually agree with this content revision, I'd rather hear it from his.
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If you say that then I see it as 1-A+ for his lesser form and High 1-A for his higher one.
It’s a wakeup call to understand the tiering system first.
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I haven't read anything you said. Can you give me a short sentence of your problems with the scaling that op is suggesting?
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I've done an early summary:
However, after convening with Ultima on this tiering, I came up with my final conclusion. 1-A+ for the Tower for the R>F layers and being encompassing the Multiverse. High 1-A for things outside the Tower that encompasses it ie Maturian, Gan, Deadlights, etc…. Since Gan alreaddy transcends the others then he gets one layer above baseline High 1-A.
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@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster
Does this seem like an acceptable solution for you?
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So what do you think about High 1-A+?
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No. Based on what I discussed with Ultima. He thinks the Todash space is not outside of everything nor the Macroverse.
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Macroverse and Todash space are the same thing. And it is stated that the cosmology of the macroverse of the universe has no common point except for biological laws. However, this is likely due to the fact that the phrase "biological laws" was spoken by Pennywise, who is bound by the laws of Earth, where he exists.
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What evidence would be enough for you to agree to possible worlds? Like what standards do you hold such an idea to?
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They would not function in a hierarchy while encompassing all the things and they would be the cosmological apexes.
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Doesn't Macroverse/Todash Darkness meet this requirement?
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Unless said hierarchy is just one possible world? These theoretical ideas can't be fully understood because a possible world is so much more than anything imaginable. You haven't fully described a standard that would make the arguments invalid.
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They all exist outside the Tower. Why do you think the Macroverse encompasses the rest?
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Because the Lands where the Tower stands, known as End-World or Mid-World, are compared to a disc-shaped island floating in the middle of the Prim Sea, while the Prim itself is likened to a drop existing within the embrace of Todash.
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That's just going to give it one layer for the Macroverse.
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I still disagree with HIgh 1-A+. In my mind you have High 1-B+ or Low 1-A | 1-A+ | High 1-A
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So why is that? Because I answered the questions you had about Gan being born from Prim. Can you provide a new reason for this, or were my explanations not satisfying?
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The explanations you gave just don't meet the qualifications for HIgh 1-A+. Even if Gan became the author, he's not the originator of all ideas in a capacity that warrants High 1-A+. He's just a deeper layer into High 1-A.
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Is your thought that the possible worlds that are logically possible are not sufficiently adequate, or that Gan does not have enough capacity to encompass or create all of them?
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Being the author of something isn't the same as representing the sum total of all Logical Worlds and thoughts. He's a higher level without being the spawn of all possibilities in my mind.
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Did you read the Cosmology page? Because it clearly states that all possible life and experience are manifestations of Gan (which, indirectly, also includes the Final Other, of course). Besides, all possible worlds are actually possible stories. I explained this in both the Dark Tower section and the All Possible Worlds section, and it turns out that Gan is the author of all of them. In this case, it is possible to say that he is the author of all possible worlds or, in other words, all possible stories. The term "author" mentioned here is not a mere title but is bestowed upon the Final Other as a divine creator attribute, the one who writes everything.
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Yes, which is why I mentioned it and why I still don't feel like its enough.
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