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Dark Souls Dragons and God Tiers Revision

SheevShezarrine

SheevShezarrine

3,025
1,438
I originally had this as a longer CRT, but the son of a bitch got 404'd because I was taking too long typing it. So, here's the condensed version.

AP Problems
The AP difference between Everlasting Dragons/their kin and the Lords is way to vast to be consistent with the lore. The Everlasting Dragons stood a serious chance of winning their war against the gods, and yet they are Country level while Gwyn is Large Star level. This is a SERIOUS inconsistency that should have been fixed sooner. So, here's how it ahould be fixed:

  • The God Tiers and First Flame are downgraded to Multi-Continent level. Here's why. First off, the sun in Dark Souls should not scale to the real-lfe sun. Its sun "light" is magical in nature, and doesn't even behave like actual light, so the source, which is magical in nature by that token, cannot scale to a real-life star. Thus, we come to Multi-Continent level as the true rating. The First Flame's power holds sway over the entire Earth, causing spatial and temporal distortions even when it is highly weakened and near fading. So, First Flame and those who can fuel it are definite High 6-A. And since Everlasting Dragons in groups can take on Lords, and singular Everlasting Dragons can take semi-casual hits from Gwy, they should fall somewhere in the Continent level range,
Speed Issues
As previously stated, sunlight in Dark Souls is not analogous to actual light, so no Relativistic+ Sunlight Spears. God Tiers are now MHS+ scaling to the natural lightning in Gael's fight. And since Lightning Spear is a wimp version of the now MHS+ Sunlight Spear, it is not as fast, and cannot be MHS+, so back to using the Hypersonic Asylum Demon calc as the speed rating for lower tiers.

Backing for Doubts About Sunlight Spear
These are criteria taken from Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats, along with a couple extra that could be cited as legit evidence for or against

Things disproving light-based Sunlight Spear

  • Sunlight Spear doesn't refract off of water (VBW rule)
  • Doesn't have origin at realistic source of light (VBW rule)
  • Is tangible (VBW rule)
  • Doesn't travel in a straight line (it has tracking) (VBW)
  • Doesn't deal fire damage (irl light/lasers inflict damage via heat energy, this was also cited as evidence for Beamo beams in Zelda being actual light)
  • Doesn't deal magic damage (which could be seen as proof for lightspeed SLS, since it would establish "light-based" offensive miracles as consistently dealing magic damage as its in-verse stand-in for light-based damage, since Divine Pillars of Light does this form of damage)
  • It is, in both lore and game terms, simply a more powerful version of the Lightning Spear miracles (such as how Great Soul Arrow is the step-up from standard Soul Arrow), which means it would cap at at least MHS+ unless it had an actual SoL feat
Things proving SLS is actual light

  • A spell description (somewhat fulfills a VBW rule)
 
I see that this is becoming a problem, what's the issue people seem to have with the verse? Are they arguing something like it's an outlier? Inconsistency? Or something else?
 
WeeklyBattles said:
@Knight People just dont believe Dark Souls is as powerful as it is
Click to expand...

Yes I'm asking why. What's the current reasoning? Perhaps it could be explained better? From what I'm gathering people are claiming that the star level feat is an outlier or inconsistent.
 
Well if it's only scaling to the absolute God tiers I fail to see how this is inconsistent or an outlier. Unless it's a verse riddled with like 9-A feats and a bunch of anti feats then I could possibly see the arguments of it being an outlier. Although i must say it's becoming pretty annoying and ridiculous to see threads dealing with this over and over again. And I'm not even familiar with the verse. But if you've debunked the arguments over and over again perhaps a discussion rule should be made? This seems pretty controversial at this point.
 
Knightofannihilation666 said:
Well if it's only scaling to the absolute God tiers I fail to see how this is inconsistent or an outlier. Unless it's a verse riddled with like 9-A feats and a bunch of anti feats then I could possibly see the arguments of it being an outlier. Although i must say it's becoming pretty annoying and ridiculous to see threads dealing with this over and over again. And I'm not even familiar with the verse. But if you've debunked the arguments over and over again perhaps a discussion rule should be made? This seems pretty controversial at this point.
Click to expand...
Clearing up some stuff.

Basically, the god tiers are stated to power the sun, and once you kill them, the sun goes out.

Not only is it a blatant feat, but only the single absolute god tiers scale to it, like. Literally every single thing you fought before combined is laughable fodder to them god tier.
 
In my opinion, it's not the star level that's the problem, it's the country level.

We get country level from a calc of a storm caused by ringing a bell. And despite this being ringing a bell, a magical ritual of some kind, we scale all the Everlasting Dragons and everyone connected to them as country level.

Even putting aside my own thoughts on the general validity of storm calcs, saying that every single dragon is country level because something they created is country level is blatantly reaching. Humanity has created cities and nukes, we don't rate ourselves as all 7-B because something we created is on that level.
 
@Monarch

"The Great Belfry area in DS3 was created as a sort of sanctuary for the Everlasting Dragons and those who would walk their path (I.E. wield their power, as shown by Oceiros).

If the Great Belfry was created by those who wield the power of the Dragons, it stands to reason that they shouldn't be somehow able to amplify their power one million+-fold simply by shoving it into a large bell."

This is what Perp has told me about that calc.
 
Ah I see, then I fail to see the logic behind this thread. but I do see a minor issue. From first glance the Sunlight Spear doesn't seem to follow our standards for light. Is it composed of actual light? It seems that it travels in a straight line like light does but the appearance doesn't sell it for me. Unless it's stated to move at light speed, has good and valid sources, is stated to be made of photons or radiation, or if it reflects off mirrors or liquids. That's only possible issue I see here.
 
Literally nobody had died in the war apart from several silver knights (at least according to Gough's dialouge)
 
"It stands to reason that humans shouldn't be able to amplify their power 2.7405e13 times over just by shoving it in a small metal ball"

And yet we did. We created something that powerful when we ourselves are physically no where close.

Scaling an almost extinct race of beings based on an artifact they created when we have no idea how they created it, is not enough evidence to say they all have the strength of that artifact.

We do not know anything about that bell other than "it summons storms". Scaling it to how hard a dragon can punch you is a huge stretch.
 
Right now I'm pretty skeptical of the Sunlight Spears being considered real light. After doing some research of them it seems they're made of magic, not real light. They also somehow behave like lightning, they produce electricity and can electricue enemies if it's thrown in water. I don't think this can be used as real light. Unless I can see more proof of it being real light I'm rather skeptical over it being legit.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It was created through the power of the dragons. It scales to them.
Click to expand...
Prove to me that a single dragon created it instantly with his own power, instead of, for example, an entire race of dragons creating it, or a single one doing it over time, or a combination of both, or any of the other possibilities that make scaling the bells to how hard a dragon can punch you completely invalid.

I'll give you a hint. You can't. There's simply not enough information.

I honestly don't know how every single dragon scaling to the bells ever made it past a CRT, considering how much is unknown about the entire situation.
 
Knightofannihilation666 said:
Right now I'm pretty skeptical of the Sunlight Spears being considered real light. After doing some research of them it seems they're made of magic, not real light. They also somehow behave like lightning, they produce electricity and can electricue enemies if it's thrown in water. I don't think this can be used as real light. Unless I can see more proof of it being real light I'm rather skeptical over it being legit.
Click to expand...
It's literal sunlight from the sun, used by characters whose power is to sustain the First Flame, the sun.
 
Knightofannihilation666 said:
Right now I'm pretty skeptical of the Sunlight Spears being considered real light. After doing some research of them it seems they're made of magic, not real light. They also somehow behave like lightning, they produce electricity and can electricue enemies if it's thrown in water. I don't think this can be used as real light. Unless I can see more proof of it being real light I'm rather skeptical over it being legit.
Click to expand...
I agree. The item description seems kinda vague as well
 
The fact that it behaves like electricity and even produces electricity seems to contradict that. And from what I'm reading it's made from Miracles which are a form of magic. Is there anything in the Lore that has this act differently? I've seen verses get downgraded based on things like this, but from the visuals and such it seems to heavily contradict that the Sunlight Spears are true light. Light doesn't produce lightning and it doesn't shock people if it hits water.
 
I believe there was an argument made about lightning spears and stuff not being actual lightning, instead being magical lightning, seeing as it behaved differently than the lightning in Gael's fight, but I don't think it went anywhere.
 
"Sunlight Spear requires the user to be a member of the Warrior of Sunlight covenant to cast. At first glance, it appears identical to Great Lightning Spear, save for its coloration and number of casts. Like the other lightning spear variants, it also causes a large cascade of electrical energy if thrown into the water, potentially hitting multiple foes."

" Sunlight Spear is a Miracle in Dark Souls"


"Miracles are a form of magic in Dark Souls"


I fail to see how it's real light, it seems like there's more things proving its not real light as opposed to it being real light.
 
That's gameplay though, Monarch. The official description doesn't say it electrocutes people. And it doesn't in-game either, just the water. It seems more like an oversight.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Magic can employ real light.

Also, since when is sunlight producing electricity impossible?
Click to expand...


Completely different, again while it can employ real light it behaves differently.


Again light doesn't produce electricity in the same fashion as it does when it comes to solar power. You need technology to actually gather power and energy from light. Whenever we look at the sun is it surrounded by lightning? No. Here we have it behaving very very very differently from that. Borsalino (Admiral Kizaru) produce any form of Lightning. Now if it's different in the Lore I'll accept it.
 
The Everlasting said:
Your argument for the sun makes no sense.
Click to expand...
Dark Souls Sun is a magical construct and the magic derived from it, said to be sunlight, acts in no way like irl sunlight. Closest thing straight sunlight causes to electrocution is second degree sunburn, and no amount of Vitamin D from catching rays can instantly close a gaping sword wound. Thus, Dark Souls Sun =/= our Sun. Make sense yet?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
That's gameplay though, Monarch. The official description doesn't say it electrocutes people. And it doesn't in-game either, just the water. It seems more like an oversight.
Click to expand...
The spell has done lightning damage in all 3 games it's been in. Like hell it's an oversight.
 
Does Dark Souls need a discussion rule or a note in its verse page, if the same topic appears recurrently, and the staff are tired of dealing with it?
 
SheevShezarrine said:
Matthew Schroeder said:
That's gameplay though, Monarch. The official description doesn't say it electrocutes people. And it doesn't in-game either, just the water. It seems more like an oversight.
Click to expand...
The spell has done lightning damage in all 3 games it's been in. Like hell it's an oversight.
Click to expand...
I don't believe that qualifies. As if they were going to create an entirely new damage type for a single spell.
 
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