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Dark Souls Downgrade
- Thread starter Monarch_Laciel
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The King of the Storm is the dragon he rides. Not the Nameless KnigMatthew Schroeder said:
And that bit of bolded quote that you said shows that the storm dissipates after the bell is rung agai. It is incredibly obvious that the storm is summoned and disapated by the bell not by the Nameless King
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> Except that's not his name. That's his mount's name.Kepekley23 said:
> Except it appears when you ring a bell, and it disapates when that bell rings again.
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I was going by Weekly's post saying he was the King of the Storm, since Dark Souls is not my area of knowledge and I only weigh in based on what is argued. Carry on if he isn't.
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He is called the King of the Storm in his first phase of the boss fight. And the bell only rings when he dies and fades with him.
The fact that it rings when he is killed without anyone interacting with it shows there's something else at play. Attributing it to the Bell is frankly random.
The fact that it rings when he is killed without anyone interacting with it shows there's something else at play. Attributing it to the Bell is frankly random.
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Question: Was this storm an actual storm with thunder and rain or was it just a spread of large clouds over the area?
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@Kep
I think the former, but the calc is for the cloud dispersion.
I think the former, but the calc is for the cloud dispersion.
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Yeah, well, he used a thundercloud to calc the thickness, which affects the value greatly considering a thundercloud is more than six times as thick as the average bulky cloud, so that value needs a reason. His calc just says he is using it because the storm is "large"
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@Matt no, he's not called the King of the Storm. You're fighting his Stormdrake, which is called the King of the Storm. He's just riding on it's back. Which is made obvious when after the Stormdrake dies and he comes down to personally fight you, the boss name is now The Nameless King. If it was the same character, the name wouldn't have changed, just like it doesn't change when any other boss enters a second phase.
The bell is clearly shown to be what is summoning and dispersing the storm when it rings. There is a link between him dying and the bell ringing again, sure. But it is not a link that means the NK himself is maintaining the storm and dispersing it when he dies. It's simply that the bell rings after he is killed. A marker, a funeral horn.
The bell is clearly shown to be what is summoning and dispersing the storm when it rings. There is a link between him dying and the bell ringing again, sure. But it is not a link that means the NK himself is maintaining the storm and dispersing it when he dies. It's simply that the bell rings after he is killed. A marker, a funeral horn.
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No it isn't what is doing it. The fact that the bell rings when he dies shows that there is a connection.
IT being a funeral horn is the most random theory I've heard yet.
IT being a funeral horn is the most random theory I've heard yet.
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- #52
Matt, I've said there is a connection. But that's it. There is some connection between the two, because it rings after he dies. But there is absolutely nothing indicating that connection somehow results in the King being the one controlling, maintaining and dispersing the storm.
It was an example of a connection that does not mean there is a power scale between them. And the theory that it simply ringing to mark his death takes a lot less leaps in logic than your theory that he channels his power into it to make it ring and disperse the clouds or whatever process you think there is. Occams razor.
It was an example of a connection that does not mean there is a power scale between them. And the theory that it simply ringing to mark his death takes a lot less leaps in logic than your theory that he channels his power into it to make it ring and disperse the clouds or whatever process you think there is. Occams razor.
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Yes there is? The fact that the storm lasts while he's around and is only gone when he's gone. I find it hard to have to repeat this over and over. Nothing indicates that the bell has such power over it.
And I'm not doing any leaps in logic, I'm simply looking at what's happening. All the attempt justifications you propose are frankly theories.
And I'm not doing any leaps in logic, I'm simply looking at what's happening. All the attempt justifications you propose are frankly theories.
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- #54
No Matt. That is incorrect. The storm appears when the bell tolls the first time, and it sticks around until the bell tolls agai. That is what indicates the bell has that power. On the other hand, you need to ignore those facts to assume that the Nameless King is keeping it around. That is a post hoc fallacy. You are ignoring the other possible (and contextually more likely) reason in favour of your own. Believe me, I find this hard to repeat over and over as well.
Everything both of us are saying are theories, Dark Souls is like that. Mine's simply the theory that takes less assumptions.
Everything both of us are saying are theories, Dark Souls is like that. Mine's simply the theory that takes less assumptions.
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''Fewer''.
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My argument isn't a Post Hoc Fallacy, how many times must I explain it. You are actually misusing the fallacy. The fact that the storm only goes down once the Nameless King is killed indicates a direct correlation between him being alive and the storm continuing.
IT is far more logical to assume that he is the reason behind the storm. The bell may simply be a signifier / symbol, rather than the object which is directly creating the storm like you say.
None of the other arguments are contextually more likely. They just sound more believable from your point of view.
IT is far more logical to assume that he is the reason behind the storm. The bell may simply be a signifier / symbol, rather than the object which is directly creating the storm like you say.
None of the other arguments are contextually more likely. They just sound more believable from your point of view.
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- #57
''fewer assumptions''
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''Fewer onscreens.''
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Fewer English classes.
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- #60
"Post hoc ergo prompter hoc: Usually abbreviated to just "post hoc", this fallacy happens when someone assumes that since two events occur in sequence, the first one must be the cause of the second one... This argument ignores any other possible explanations. "
You are assuming that because the Nameless King appears after the storm does, and the storm goes away after he dies, that he is the one creating and dispersing it. You are ignoring that the storm appears directly after the bell is rung, and the storm goes away directly after the bell tolls again. Even in the gameplay itself, the Nameless King riding the Stormdrake only flies in as you walk through the boss arena. He's not already there with the storm. And even after the nameless king and the stormdrake are killed, the storm still remains there until the bell starts ringing agai .
You are assuming that because the Nameless King appears after the storm does, and the storm goes away after he dies, that he is the one creating and dispersing it. You are ignoring that the storm appears directly after the bell is rung, and the storm goes away directly after the bell tolls again. Even in the gameplay itself, the Nameless King riding the Stormdrake only flies in as you walk through the boss arena. He's not already there with the storm. And even after the nameless king and the stormdrake are killed, the storm still remains there until the bell starts ringing agai .
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I never said the former, I said the later because it's an objective fact. The bells ring immediately as he dies and the storm fades. It's not a natural occurance. It is much more likely that the Nameless King is the one creating the storm, and that the bell is just a symbol / signifier rather than the thing making it. His death indicates it.
You cannot act like he has no relation to the storm specially given the circumstances of his deth. To say such is to ignore onscreen evidence of what is happening.
You cannot act like he has no relation to the storm specially given the circumstances of his deth. To say such is to ignore onscreen evidence of what is happening.
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- #62
The cutscene in which the bells ring actually does not take place until after he has collapsed, faded away, and given you his soul. Not immediately the moment he dies.
It's not a natural occurence, and not once did I argue that it was. But it not being a natural occurence =/= the nameless king being the one doing it.
No, that is not much more likely. That is just as likely as my theory, if not less likely.
I agree he is related to it. But there are degrees of relation. He is not the one creating and maintaining it.
It's not a natural occurence, and not once did I argue that it was. But it not being a natural occurence =/= the nameless king being the one doing it.
No, that is not much more likely. That is just as likely as my theory, if not less likely.
I agree he is related to it. But there are degrees of relation. He is not the one creating and maintaining it.
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Since when does it have to be immediately? It happens not long after his death, and after you obtain his soul.
But the fact that it fades as consequence of his death doesn't indicate anything now?
There's nothing to make it less likely. There's stuff on-screen that makes it more likely, you can't just say it's Post Hoc when there's no other circumstances or elements at play here.
He is definitely maintaining it.
But the fact that it fades as consequence of his death doesn't indicate anything now?
There's nothing to make it less likely. There's stuff on-screen that makes it more likely, you can't just say it's Post Hoc when there's no other circumstances or elements at play here.
He is definitely maintaining it.
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Consider the speed of the storm's dispersal. If he was the one maintaining it, it would be gone the moment he died. There wouldn't be a gap of several seconds between him dying and it beginning to disperse.
Except it doesn't fade as a consequence of his death. It fades as a consequence of the bell ringing, just like it appeared as a consequence of the bell ringing.
What makes it less likely is that there is a higher correlation between the bell ringing and the storm appearing / disappearing than the correlation between the NK appearing and the storm appearing and the NK dying and the storm disappearing.
Not really.
Except it doesn't fade as a consequence of his death. It fades as a consequence of the bell ringing, just like it appeared as a consequence of the bell ringing.
What makes it less likely is that there is a higher correlation between the bell ringing and the storm appearing / disappearing than the correlation between the NK appearing and the storm appearing and the NK dying and the storm disappearing.
Not really.
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No, that is an incredibly random assumption. It could disperse slowly and still be him. The few seconds gap is proof of nothing safe that gameplay requires you to manually pick up the soul for the scene to trigger.
It clearly does. I don't see how you can be so insistant on that. The bell only rings with his death.
No there isn't. The correlation with the bell only is your assumption in the first place. The problem with this whole threads lies in the fundamental premise that it is the bell's power (???) doing it.
I am not lying, and I would appreciate a less aggresive tone.
He is definitely maintaining it because it lasts while he's around and is only gone with his death. It is more likely that the bell warns him to your presence.
It clearly does. I don't see how you can be so insistant on that. The bell only rings with his death.
No there isn't. The correlation with the bell only is your assumption in the first place. The problem with this whole threads lies in the fundamental premise that it is the bell's power (???) doing it.
I am not lying, and I would appreciate a less aggresive tone.
He is definitely maintaining it because it lasts while he's around and is only gone with his death. It is more likely that the bell warns him to your presence.
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Also can we please get along. I'm tired irl anyway
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Indisputable silver-bullet proof no. But when combined with the fact that the storm does not disperse immediately on his death, nor does the bell ring immediately, and does disperse only when the bells ring again, it becomes a lot more likely that it is the bells ringing that summons and disperses the storm.
Because it isn't clear. You think it's clear from your point of view, but it isn't. The bell rings after he dies yes, but that doesn't mean that he is the one dispersing the storm.
The correlation between the storm and the bell is a smaller assumption than correlation between the storm and the king. Everything going on here is assumption because we don't know for certain, but as I've covered above, there is a higher correlation, and thus it is more likely, that it is the bells controlling the storm.
I apologise and have edited that out. It was hypocritcal of me to accuse you of lying for stating he definitely was creating the storm statement when I had myself definitevely stated that he was not.
These are the sequence of events:
Bell is rung = storm appears --> NK appears
NK dies --> Bell is rung = Storm disappears.
The storm appears/disappears immediately when the bell is rung, as opposed to ringing some time before or after the NK shows up / dies. That difference in time is what makes the bells more likely to be controlling the weather than the NK.
Because it isn't clear. You think it's clear from your point of view, but it isn't. The bell rings after he dies yes, but that doesn't mean that he is the one dispersing the storm.
The correlation between the storm and the bell is a smaller assumption than correlation between the storm and the king. Everything going on here is assumption because we don't know for certain, but as I've covered above, there is a higher correlation, and thus it is more likely, that it is the bells controlling the storm.
I apologise and have edited that out. It was hypocritcal of me to accuse you of lying for stating he definitely was creating the storm statement when I had myself definitevely stated that he was not.
These are the sequence of events:
Bell is rung = storm appears --> NK appears
NK dies --> Bell is rung = Storm disappears.
The storm appears/disappears immediately when the bell is rung, as opposed to ringing some time before or after the NK shows up / dies. That difference in time is what makes the bells more likely to be controlling the weather than the NK.
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Except the storm starts forming before the bell ever makes a sound.Matthew Schroeder said:
It starts swinging, but the clouds appear before it actually tolls. So it can't be that the bell tolling alerted him and then he summoned the storm.
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I will reply after I wake up.
ApiesDeathbyLazors
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HAHAHA! Right, cause Miyasaki's gonna say anything conclusive about a Souls game. Oh man, that's the funniest thing I've heard all night. Thanks, I really needed that.Andika CL atmadja said:
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either way, the Lord Soul Gods should stay 6-B as:
A God with a Lord Soul >>> a God without a Lord Soul
Lord Soul >>> Any other artifact in dark souls
can we agree on this ?
A God with a Lord Soul >>> a God without a Lord Soul
Lord Soul >>> Any other artifact in dark souls
can we agree on this ?
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Ok I have two things 1) We create nukes through a 'nature' process revolving around atoms, in dark souls literally everything is determined by your soul (you magic power, strength, intelligence, skill), so why would the creator of the bell use anything else but there souls to power this bell when things like the sun are powered by souls. 2) the dragons didn't make it; it was the dragon worshipers (whom worshiped them for their might); why would they make a item (the notes a front of the bell say that nothing will remain if you Ring the bell, but this maybe the king of storms making it and I'll get to that later) that can one shot dragons if they worshiped them for their power. They won't worship them if they were thousands of times stronger the whole time. Also the nameless king absorbed the king of storms soul as he died, he mercy killed him and used the extra power to fight the Ashen One, so the king of storms could be the one making the storm and the nameless king could have continued to do so after getting his soul (the Ashen One gets souls even if enemies walk off cliffs there no other reason as to why he should have not got the soul (he absorbed another dragons soul 5 minutes before hand so it being a dragon is not an excuse)).
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Can you space that out a bit more and explain what you are saying a bit more clearly?
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he's basically sayingMonarch Laciel said:
Making a nuke =/= creating a magical artifact using magic
and that the dragons didn't make the bell that those that make the bell, the people that workship and use the power of the dragons made the bell
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Lets take a moment to switch out of "vs battle wiki mode" and realise that not everyone calculates storm feats and then applies them to sheer destructive power. It is entirely possible that the dragon worshippers did not realise how many joules their bells were generating, and it is entirely plausible that the bells could not convert the storm summoning energy to sheer destructive energy. So dragon worshippers might not have thought themselves as conventionally "mighty" as the dragons, even if their artifact could by our standards generate that much energy.Keeweed said:
Also the nameless king absorbed the king of storms soul as he died, he mercy killed him and used the extra power to fight the Ashen One, so the king of storms could be the one making the storm and the nameless king could have continued to do so after getting his soul (the Ashen One gets souls even if enemies walk off cliffs there no other reason as to why he should have not got the soul (he absorbed another dragons soul 5 minutes before hand so it being a dragon is not an excuse)).
First, there is nothing other than that name indicating that the Stormdrake is summoning the clouds. Second, I've already said that using the name "King of the Storms" as evidence is pretty shaky. Third, you don't get the abilities of the people you absorb the souls of, so NK using the stormdrake's power to maintain the storm is a no-no. Fourth, you don't absorb Ornstein / Smough's souls (whichever you kill first) until the boss fight is over, and you don't absorb the Throne Watcher/Defender (Whichever you kill first) souls until their boss fight is over. So arguing that NK must have absorbed the stormdrake's soul because you didn't in the middle of the boss fight is also a no-no.
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^^^Overlord775 said:
also @Monarch in the Ornstein and Smough fight we didn't absorb the soul of the first we kill because the other absorbs it first
and in the Throne Watcher/Defender when you drop one of the boss health bar to 0, they don't die, they are only too injured to fight, as seen by the fact that they can be heal each other. They only die when both are defeated, because they are heavely damaged and have no way to heal back, so they die
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Ok
There's still less proving that the stormdrake is the one maintaining the storm than the bells.
There's still less proving that the stormdrake is the one maintaining the storm than the bells.
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