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Dark Souls Downgrade

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Monarch_Laciel

Monarch_Laciel

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Obviously Dark Souls can't be star level because its just a hack and slash fantasy - NO. I bet you thought it would be that again, but no. This time it's different.

Dark Souls is currently country level, because the bell in the Archdragon Peak creates a huge storm. And the dragons created the bell, so logically all the dragons are country level. Right? Wrong.

Saying that the dragons and everyone capable of fighting and killing them are all capable of the same energy output as one of their creations is wrong, unless evidence for that is shown. Humans are not all 7-C to 7-B because we created nukes.

There is simply not enough evidence regarding the Archdragon Bells to say that everyone scales to the 6-B feat those bells perform. All we know is that there are bells, and that ringing the bells summons the storm. Multiple dragons could have put forward their power to create the bells. The bells could serve as a huge amplifier for their existing power. A single dragon could have made them, but over a very long period of time, adding a little bit of their magic to it each day, and that magic adding up to country level over millenia. Maybe they just found the bells somewhere. Or all of the above, or something else. Or maybe a single dragon just snapped his fingers and created the bells instantly, in which case 6-B is valid.

The problem is that there are far too many possibilities for the creation and powers of the bells, none of which we know for certain (or even likely) to be true, and most of them are circumstances that do not mean every dragon and person who fights them is 6-B. We are making reaching assumptions here, and we should not be doing this.

With this in mind, everyone with a 6-B key should have that key changed back to what they were previously, which I believe was Low 7-B based on the Witch of Izalith's pyromancy.
 
i think that the holders of the original souls (Nito, Izalith and the furtive pigmin) should scale to the bell, as their soul are the strongest arctifacts in the entire serie, and it would make no sense that a random bell is thousands of times stronger than the power source of the primordial gods
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Scaling the bell to them would still result in everyone else scaling via Kalameet
Click to expand...
explain. What's wrong with saying that a god tier artifact created by the most important and most powerfull power source in the verse is stronger than an artifact created by mid-tier characters ?
 
also only a few people would scale, as Kalameet only scales to Prime Anor Londo and Nito and Izalith didn't live in Anor Londo, and the chosen undead fought severally weakened versions of Nito and Izalith
 
If there is an accepted calculation, I am fine with Low 6-B.
 
Nothing states the Nameless King is maintaining the storm, nor that his death dispersed it. The only evidence for that is that they come a few seconds after each other. This is just level design, correlation does not imply causation.

And even if his death did disperse it, why would that scale to how hard he can hit you with his spear? It isn't as if he's falling over and the force of the impact pushes the clouds back. He dies, and a few seconds later the storm goes away. He's not actively pushing it away, he's dead.
 
That's his mount's name though, and that's honestly a really weak argument saying that a name means he is maintaining the storm.
 
The storm forms when the bell is rung, and disperses after you have defeated the boss. Nothing states he is responsible for it, it is just the level design. It is not blatant evidence, it is your speculation. And the tier for an entire verse should not be based on speculation.

This is Terraria's "holds back an eclipse" all over again.
 
No it's not really speculation. The fact that it disperses once he is killed is conclusive evidence that his death and the storm being maintained are related. Saying that the bell is responsible for it, when more likely it simply brought his attention and he formed it, is what's speculation.

It isn't, that's a false equivalency.
 
No, it is speculation. You do not know for certain, and you are assuming it to be based on circumstantial evidence. That is speculation. And no, that is not conclusive evidence. You are using a correlation implies causation fallacy, and a post hoc fallacy. Nothing is conclusive about this entire situation, and that is the precise reason that we should not be using it to determine the tiers of an entire franchise.

As a slightly related side note, I find it an incredible double standard that the guy who rejects a bunch of scientists stating the cosmology of I/O's universe because "it's just them theorizing", is saying that this situation is conclusive, despite the incredible lack of information we are given.
 
Well well well, Look who it is, Unholy Bindings in a Dark souls revision thread, didn't think anyone would see that coming.

Anyway imma sit this one out, quite frankly I don't give a shit about te souls profiles anymore so I'm going to let the professionals handle this. Maybe I'll even tackle it at some point who knows
 
It isn't speculation, it is as a reasonable assumption. The logic that the bell is responsible for it comes out of nowhere, and is contradicted by the King's appearance starting the storm, and his death prompting the storm to fade. That alone disproves the bell argument.

This isn't Post Hoc fallacy. In this case the storm won't fade if the King isn't killed. It isn't something that just happens to happen after it, it is something that is demonstrably a consequence of his death.

I/O has nothing to do with it, and its problems are manyfold and different from the discussion at hand.

What this situation reminds me is the TMNT Solar Eclipse argument, where a solar eclipse starting after Tengu Shredder conquered Japan, lasting over the entirety of his rule and only fading with his defeat was somehow argued to be unrelated to his power and rule.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvFcBr6cBP0

The lever is pulled. The bell starts to swing, the storm has started coming in. That clearly shows that the bell is what is summoning the storm. Not the Nameless King. And your argument that "the bell just alerts the Nameless King, and then he summons the storm" is disproven by the fact that the bell's first ring occurs after the bell has started to swing, but before the bell first tolls.

Again. That is a post hoc / correlation implies causation fallacy. A far better explanation is "level design".
 
No it doesn't. He shows up later. And since it fades with his death, the only explanation that holds up on any level of scrutiny is to assume that he is behind it. Or else the bell started the storm, but somehow the role of maintaining it shifted to the King. This is just a random bell, you are attributing massive magical properties to it instead of giving them to the guy who you're actually fighting, is called the King of the Storm, and whose death prompts the storm to fade.

It isn't Post Hoc Fallacy. This is just a logical assumption based on clear evidence.

Also, seriously? "Level Design" is a wholly irrelevant argument because at that point you are ceasing to look at Dark Souls as its internal universe, but as an external work of fiction. Which isn't what we do here. The very act of calculating feats revolves around assuming the fiction is "real". Or else it turns into the "Lol, do you think the authors considered all that math?" fallacy.
 
Also, [1] only after the Nameless King is killed and his soul is obtained does the bell ring again, and the storm dissipates. This shows that there is a direct correlation between the Nameless King and the storm. The bell being the direct and sole responsible for it sounds like a leap in logic at best, and outright headcanon at worse.

What we have is the Storm fading after the King of the Storm is defeated.
 
This is a two edged blade Matthew, assuming that is disappears because of nameless kings death is also headcannon. It's not like bells in the soul series hold any significant meaning, except they open doors from across the land, wake up lords of cinders, and other important things
 
The storm dissapates when the NK died. Not sure how inferring that these events may be related is headcannon.
 
The fire link bell literally resurrects the lords of cinder, a bell can't summon a storm rather than a man when there are no comparable feats to it.
 
Unholy Bindings said:
This is a two edged blade Matthew, assuming that is disappears because of nameless kings death is also headcannon.
Click to expand...
It's not. In order to debate we have to make assumptions ourselves. We cannot reject any and all assumption and speculation as being inherently invalid. In my case, I am making the least amount of assumptions. The storm dissipates when the Nameless King dies and only when he dies. You can't reverse it any other way and it won't dissipate by itself if you don't kill him. This shows a direct relationship between the Nameless King and the storm.

Saying that it was entirely the bell's effect is not only a headcanon (As is all the assumptions about how it can do it), but also directly contradicted by on-screen evidence.
 
Unholy Bindings said:
The fire link bell literally resurrects the lords of cinder, hoe is it hard to accept a bell can't summon a storm rather than a man when there are no comparable feats to it?
Click to expand...
Because the feat is clearly done by the Nameless King, and there are better feats than it. It resurrecting a Lord of Cinder has nothing to do with the NK maintaining the storm.
 
Even if he did it it's an outlier, there are no feats comparable to him, not to mention that it doesn't scale to his regular attacks, and maintaining part is kind of silly. I guess everything you summon now require you to maintain it with your power, like people and objects. Any you can't rule out that he might have just summoned a strong wind to move them.
 
First I'd like to see feats on the same level as the storm feat, because if there are none then it's an outlier for sure.
 
Forming a Storm that dispersed immediately after his death is implication that he did maintained it with his power. Summoning a giant monster or something of the sort is vastly different from creating a huge conglomeration of Clouds which vanishes when you die
 
I don't care about the god tiers and you yourself said that they are out of everyone's league since they're god tiers, I just want to see a character other than Nameless king performing an equal feat to his storm feat.

Also, how can you be sure that the nameless king is responsible for doing it? It could be the dragon you know, since he does absorb it when he dies. This means it's an inconsistency or an outlier since literally no other everlasting dragon has a similar feat. Also nameless king in that case alone wouldn't be able to control, and since were at it...

What makes you think he needs to constantly control it? Does summoning Blie eyes white dragon need you to control it with your power? Does summoning a phantom or something that can exist without tle inferference need gor direct constant energy to be present in their way?
 
The fact that the storm fades immediately after he dies indicates that he maintained it with his power and that if he stopped maintaining it it would fade.
 
Not really, there are many summoned objects and disappear because their summoner was killed and they have no meaning on their own.

Ganon summoned a storm in OOT but doesn't seem to control it in any way, if he could control the storm he would have likely manipulated it's aspects and properties. This in question doesn't mean ven seem to be a normal storm, Since you can walk on it. My Point here is just because something is tied to another thing doesn't mean it needs constant direct focus at it.
 
Summoned Objects, or Summoned Beings is different. A storm is a weather phenomena and has to be maintained or it would naturally fade. The fact that it abruptly fades in seconds right after his death shows that it wasn't naturally just created and left there.
 
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