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A big thanks to the few members who gave me feedback (especially ShakeResounding), I got some mixed responses but overall it gave me enough thought to make this thread and several ideas on how to fix it up.
First and foremost, this is a cosmology update thread, and whether or not Tier 1 is valid holds no impact on the general update besides the rating as the information is still valid, just that it doesn't meet the necessary requirements. So with that said, please read through the blog/thread, and state what you agree or disagree with so I can properly understand what everyone's stance is. With that out of the way, let's begin.
Cosmology Update
Low 1-C/1-C Upgrade
Spatial Dimension
The part of the thread I know more than 90% of you are even here for.
As I've mentioned many times in the past, I don't much know how our Tier 1 standards work, but I've looked through them and wanted to see if the new cosmology information would be valid. First let's go over Low 1-C stuff, and our Tiering System states...
Our Standards
"Characters or objects who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that are one uncountably infinite level above Low 2-C structures. In ordinary distribution, this corresponds to R^5 (5-dimensional real coordinate space)."
"Equivalently, this tier can be reached by affecting/creating/destroying/embodying an uncountably infinite number of universes (More specifically, as many universes as there are real numbers)."
Main Evidence: Potentially Uncountable Infinite Realms
As I mentioned in the blog (I'll just post the scans for those who aren't going to bother reading it), their are an infinite number of realms within the Ghost Zone, that consist of dimensions/timestreams, but Butch also stated (5:36) that they include the time periods of those dimensions. Going off the Tiering System FAQ page, we considered a timeline to be made up of uncountable infinitely of points, each of which are a static "snapshots" of the who universe at any given moment. Since we know the Ghost Zone holds the entire space-time continuum (timelines) of the dimensions within it, and it is stated to be constantly shifting and tearing holes into various points in time of these dimensions, and the Infi-Map being able to reveal the hidden doors that lead out into the Ghost Zone from any different time period which means it holds an uncountable infinite number of universes due to there normally being an uncountable infinite number of points in time for a timeline.
Supporting Evidence: Dimensional Structure
The infinite realms of the Ghost Zone are seen as a small part of it, despite being infinite. Butch Hartman stated (3:40) that the Ghost Zone was endless and that Danny has only scratched it's surface during his time on Nickelodeon. This is notable because Danny has knowledge that there are infinite realms, he's visited countless places himself throughout the series, and his parents have used their tech (a probe) to scan the Ghost Zone. Danny himself has also been to Pariah's Keep, which is considered one of the oldest places as Pariah was there for eons!, and is stated to be older than most ghosts. Yet despite all mentioned, the creator considers Danny to have only scratched It's surface, implying there is far more than just the infinite realms.
Another thing that supports its superiority is the realms in their entirety are represented as just the doors that float in the Ghost Zone (Once again, I'll just post the evidence here for those who aren't interested in reading the blog). We know this because when Danny, Vlad, and Phantom flew into the realms from one side of the door, they came out the other side, despite the next panel showing were they physically entering the realms they went in when entering the door. Tie this in with Clockwork actually being shown compressing timestreams (visually breaking down the doors) and creating two knew timelines represented by said doors, it's pretty clear that entire space-time continuum such as the human world are depicted as just doors in scope when compared to the Ghost Zone that they reside in.
Finally, the Ghost Zone holds up the entire dimensional structure of reality. We also are told by the creator and in verse that the Ghost Zone is a flipside of the human world's plane of existence and is apart of the entire dimensional structure of reality, and that if it were suddenly removed, the entire dimensional structure would go proof. Meaning the Ghost Zone holds the entire dimensional structure of the verse together. It's important to note that while it's mentioned that the Human World/Earth have an impact/effect on the Ghost Zone as well, this has never actually been proven. In fact, we are directly shown in the graphic novel that Dark Danny corrupted multiple time streams of the Human World that Clockwork visually broke down and compressed and nothing to the Ghost Zone, and then Clockwork creates two new alternative timelines of the Human World with the remaining ones. If the Ghost Zone was connected to the Human World/Earth in that way, it would have collapsed the moment Clockwork broke those time streams down.
That's pretty much it.
Temporal Dimension
Conclusion/Proposal
First and foremost, this is a cosmology update thread, and whether or not Tier 1 is valid holds no impact on the general update besides the rating as the information is still valid, just that it doesn't meet the necessary requirements. So with that said, please read through the blog/thread, and state what you agree or disagree with so I can properly understand what everyone's stance is. With that out of the way, let's begin.
Cosmology Update
Here is the original cosmology blog.
Here is the new cosmology blog.
The Changes
The blog now includes more information regarding the spatial and temporal aspects of the Ghost Zone and it's general importance to reality.
Those are pretty much all the major updates, all scans are in the blog with a more detailed explanation of the points.
Here is the new cosmology blog.
The Changes
The blog now includes more information regarding the spatial and temporal aspects of the Ghost Zone and it's general importance to reality.
- While the Human World is the flip side of the Ghost Zone, it's no longer going to be treated the same in overall size or importance, as it's shown multiple Human Worlds exist within the Ghost Zone and it's considered one of the infinite realms that the Ghost Zone holds.
- The infinite realms within the Ghost Zone now includes the time periods of the dimensions and timelines/timestreams it holds, potentially adding an uncountable infinite number of realms as timelines consistent of an uncountable infinite number of points each of which are "snapshots" of the space-time continuum at any point.
- Each door in the Ghost Zone represents the entirety of a dimension, and the infinite realms are seen as only a small part of the Ghost Zone as a whole.
- The Ghost Zone holds up the entire dimensional structure of reality, and the normal space-time continuum cannot fix the damage to Ghost Zone's timeline.
- The Ghost Zone potentially has an additional temporal direction than the normal universe.
Those are pretty much all the major updates, all scans are in the blog with a more detailed explanation of the points.
Low 1-C/1-C Upgrade
Spatial Dimension
As I've mentioned many times in the past, I don't much know how our Tier 1 standards work, but I've looked through them and wanted to see if the new cosmology information would be valid. First let's go over Low 1-C stuff, and our Tiering System states...
Our Standards
"Characters or objects who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that are one uncountably infinite level above Low 2-C structures. In ordinary distribution, this corresponds to R^5 (5-dimensional real coordinate space)."
"Equivalently, this tier can be reached by affecting/creating/destroying/embodying an uncountably infinite number of universes (More specifically, as many universes as there are real numbers)."
Main Evidence: Potentially Uncountable Infinite Realms
As I mentioned in the blog (I'll just post the scans for those who aren't going to bother reading it), their are an infinite number of realms within the Ghost Zone, that consist of dimensions/timestreams, but Butch also stated (5:36) that they include the time periods of those dimensions. Going off the Tiering System FAQ page, we considered a timeline to be made up of uncountable infinitely of points, each of which are a static "snapshots" of the who universe at any given moment. Since we know the Ghost Zone holds the entire space-time continuum (timelines) of the dimensions within it, and it is stated to be constantly shifting and tearing holes into various points in time of these dimensions, and the Infi-Map being able to reveal the hidden doors that lead out into the Ghost Zone from any different time period which means it holds an uncountable infinite number of universes due to there normally being an uncountable infinite number of points in time for a timeline.
Supporting Evidence: Dimensional Structure
The infinite realms of the Ghost Zone are seen as a small part of it, despite being infinite. Butch Hartman stated (3:40) that the Ghost Zone was endless and that Danny has only scratched it's surface during his time on Nickelodeon. This is notable because Danny has knowledge that there are infinite realms, he's visited countless places himself throughout the series, and his parents have used their tech (a probe) to scan the Ghost Zone. Danny himself has also been to Pariah's Keep, which is considered one of the oldest places as Pariah was there for eons!, and is stated to be older than most ghosts. Yet despite all mentioned, the creator considers Danny to have only scratched It's surface, implying there is far more than just the infinite realms.
Another thing that supports its superiority is the realms in their entirety are represented as just the doors that float in the Ghost Zone (Once again, I'll just post the evidence here for those who aren't interested in reading the blog). We know this because when Danny, Vlad, and Phantom flew into the realms from one side of the door, they came out the other side, despite the next panel showing were they physically entering the realms they went in when entering the door. Tie this in with Clockwork actually being shown compressing timestreams (visually breaking down the doors) and creating two knew timelines represented by said doors, it's pretty clear that entire space-time continuum such as the human world are depicted as just doors in scope when compared to the Ghost Zone that they reside in.
Finally, the Ghost Zone holds up the entire dimensional structure of reality. We also are told by the creator and in verse that the Ghost Zone is a flipside of the human world's plane of existence and is apart of the entire dimensional structure of reality, and that if it were suddenly removed, the entire dimensional structure would go proof. Meaning the Ghost Zone holds the entire dimensional structure of the verse together. It's important to note that while it's mentioned that the Human World/Earth have an impact/effect on the Ghost Zone as well, this has never actually been proven. In fact, we are directly shown in the graphic novel that Dark Danny corrupted multiple time streams of the Human World that Clockwork visually broke down and compressed and nothing to the Ghost Zone, and then Clockwork creates two new alternative timelines of the Human World with the remaining ones. If the Ghost Zone was connected to the Human World/Earth in that way, it would have collapsed the moment Clockwork broke those time streams down.
That's pretty much it.
Temporal Dimension
This part focuses on the temporal axis of the Ghost Zone and assuming the previous evidence regarding the spatial axis is acceptable for Low 1-C, this would make it 1-C.
Our Standards
We considered temporal dimensions to be just as valid as spatial dimensions going by our Tiering System FAQ page
"A spacetime continuum with two time axes, instead of just one, could likewise be visualized as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the entire regular timeline with 3 space and 1 time dimension. It would hence be one uncountably infinite level above a timeline and as such baseline Low 1-C. Similarily, adding even more time dimensions would add one level of dimensional superiority each time."
"Outside of explanations which state that multiple time dimensions exist it is difficult to show that a fiction has more than one. The key point that has to be established is that there is a kind of time that flows in a different direction than the past or the future or any of the spatial directions."
However the qualification standards are as follows....
"Things like timelines having time that passes at different rates would not qualify, as even the theory of general relativity already establishes that with just one regular time dimension time can flow at different rates in different places. Time flowing backwards in another universe would also not qualify it to have an additional time dimension, as it would still use the same directions of past and future as regular time, just with events playing out in reverse. For the same reasons, statements about independent time streams or of separate kinds of time, which could flow parallel to the original time, would not qualify."
Regarding the three points I bolded, I want to quickly state that the Ghost Zone essentially does all 3 of those but those won't be my argument.
Main Evidence: Potential Additional Temporal Axis
As I mentioned before and in the blog, the Ghost Zone It is stated by Frostbite that the Ghost Zone is constantly shifting, this includes it's directions in which time flows, as Clockwork, who is embodiment of time, begins to tell Danny and crew the directions in which time flows but stops himself before saying the other direction...
"for me, time moves backwards, and forwards, and... oh why am I bothering, you're fourteen"
As you can see, he was clearly pointing out the directions in which time flows but stops because he knew they wouldn't understand, which is saying something given one of those kids is a certified extraordinary genius (Tucker Foley), this would imply there being an additional temporal axis that flows in a different direction then the standard one (backwards/forwards). However, what direction is still unknown.
Supporting Evidence: Standard Timelines are Insufficient
Clockwork also tried to stabilize the Ghost Zone's reality by compressing timestreams to "act as a dam to level the waters" but also mentions that some of the changes to reality are permanent. Even later stating later that the timestream still needs mending and that it's still in stitches. This means that the Ghost Zone's dimensional/temporal structure cannot properly be fixed by using normal space-time continuum (4-D structures), despite Clockwork outright using them create stable Timelines of the Human World in the same scan. This would imply the Ghost Zone's timeline is more than the typical line that goes backwards and forwards, and that the lesser timelines are missing something.
That's pretty much it. Like I said, I'm not going to mention the other time stuff because the qualifications state that those don't qualify, so the realms having their own timestream and time flowing slower or not at all in those dimensions are completely irrelevant and hold no weight to the discussion so I won't bother you with that
Our Standards
We considered temporal dimensions to be just as valid as spatial dimensions going by our Tiering System FAQ page
"A spacetime continuum with two time axes, instead of just one, could likewise be visualized as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the entire regular timeline with 3 space and 1 time dimension. It would hence be one uncountably infinite level above a timeline and as such baseline Low 1-C. Similarily, adding even more time dimensions would add one level of dimensional superiority each time."
"Outside of explanations which state that multiple time dimensions exist it is difficult to show that a fiction has more than one. The key point that has to be established is that there is a kind of time that flows in a different direction than the past or the future or any of the spatial directions."
However the qualification standards are as follows....
"Things like timelines having time that passes at different rates would not qualify, as even the theory of general relativity already establishes that with just one regular time dimension time can flow at different rates in different places. Time flowing backwards in another universe would also not qualify it to have an additional time dimension, as it would still use the same directions of past and future as regular time, just with events playing out in reverse. For the same reasons, statements about independent time streams or of separate kinds of time, which could flow parallel to the original time, would not qualify."
Regarding the three points I bolded, I want to quickly state that the Ghost Zone essentially does all 3 of those but those won't be my argument.
Main Evidence: Potential Additional Temporal Axis
As I mentioned before and in the blog, the Ghost Zone It is stated by Frostbite that the Ghost Zone is constantly shifting, this includes it's directions in which time flows, as Clockwork, who is embodiment of time, begins to tell Danny and crew the directions in which time flows but stops himself before saying the other direction...
"for me, time moves backwards, and forwards, and... oh why am I bothering, you're fourteen"
As you can see, he was clearly pointing out the directions in which time flows but stops because he knew they wouldn't understand, which is saying something given one of those kids is a certified extraordinary genius (Tucker Foley), this would imply there being an additional temporal axis that flows in a different direction then the standard one (backwards/forwards). However, what direction is still unknown.
Supporting Evidence: Standard Timelines are Insufficient
Clockwork also tried to stabilize the Ghost Zone's reality by compressing timestreams to "act as a dam to level the waters" but also mentions that some of the changes to reality are permanent. Even later stating later that the timestream still needs mending and that it's still in stitches. This means that the Ghost Zone's dimensional/temporal structure cannot properly be fixed by using normal space-time continuum (4-D structures), despite Clockwork outright using them create stable Timelines of the Human World in the same scan. This would imply the Ghost Zone's timeline is more than the typical line that goes backwards and forwards, and that the lesser timelines are missing something.
That's pretty much it. Like I said, I'm not going to mention the other time stuff because the qualifications state that those don't qualify, so the realms having their own timestream and time flowing slower or not at all in those dimensions are completely irrelevant and hold no weight to the discussion so I won't bother you with that
Conclusion/Proposal
TLDR
Overall, this an update to the cosmology regardless of if the information doesn't support a tier 1 upgrade.
1. The Human World should no longer be considered the Ghost Zone's equivalent in terms of size and importance as it's clearly depicted as existing inside the Ghost Zone and it's statements that it's linked to it are unsupported and proven untrue. It would simply be the lesser half of the two and a standard space-time continuum (Low 2-C) (This will also make Clockwork's Human World timeline creation and compression of Timestreams Low 2-C)
2. The Ghost Zone holds up the entire dimensional structure of the verses, and the infinite realms now also include the time periods of all the dimensions and timestreams, effectively making it an uncountable infinite number of realms, and are also considered a small part of the Ghost Zone as a whole. Lastly it has a potential additional temporal axis of unknown direction but holds some significance (Rating will be either 2-A or Low 1-C/1-C)
Proposal
Once again, I don't follow Tier 1 stuff, never really cared for it but in my opinion, I think Low 1-C (5-D), possibly 1-C (6-D) potential works.
For the spatial aspect of the Ghost Zone, the evidence of uncountable infinite realms it holds within itself and supported by them not being significant and finite in size to the Ghost Zone, along with it being stated and shown to keep the dimensional structure of the verse from collapsing which would help prove its dimensions axis significance (5-D). There also exists an additional temporal axis of unknown direction but simple timelines cannot properly fix the timeline/temporal axis of the Ghost Zone, indicating some significance of the unknown axis (possibly 6-D)
However, I'd like to hear from the actual knowledgeable members who know what the heck there actually talking about to see if this stuff even qualifies and thus, the agreements, disagreements will be set up like this....
Agree (Low 1-C, possibly 1-C): Plank69 (Fine with an extra temporal dimension but neutral on higher spatial dimension), The_2nd_Existential_Seed, ByArrow, ShakeResounding, Oliver_de_jesus, Eseseso (Agree's with Plank69), Aolphl, Executor_N0,
Agree (Low 1-C): Vietthai96,
Agree (Just the info update, still 2-A):
Disagree (The update/upgrade as a whole):
Neutral (Undecided/Just here to goon): Vietthai96 (1-C),
And that's all, please state what you agree or disagree with so I know where to put you, and if you're here to just watch and goon around (you know who you are), I ask you simply keep that to a minimum, as I've noticed these times of threads suffer from that type of
Overall, this an update to the cosmology regardless of if the information doesn't support a tier 1 upgrade.
1. The Human World should no longer be considered the Ghost Zone's equivalent in terms of size and importance as it's clearly depicted as existing inside the Ghost Zone and it's statements that it's linked to it are unsupported and proven untrue. It would simply be the lesser half of the two and a standard space-time continuum (Low 2-C) (This will also make Clockwork's Human World timeline creation and compression of Timestreams Low 2-C)
2. The Ghost Zone holds up the entire dimensional structure of the verses, and the infinite realms now also include the time periods of all the dimensions and timestreams, effectively making it an uncountable infinite number of realms, and are also considered a small part of the Ghost Zone as a whole. Lastly it has a potential additional temporal axis of unknown direction but holds some significance (Rating will be either 2-A or Low 1-C/1-C)
Proposal
Once again, I don't follow Tier 1 stuff, never really cared for it but in my opinion, I think Low 1-C (5-D), possibly 1-C (6-D) potential works.
For the spatial aspect of the Ghost Zone, the evidence of uncountable infinite realms it holds within itself and supported by them not being significant and finite in size to the Ghost Zone, along with it being stated and shown to keep the dimensional structure of the verse from collapsing which would help prove its dimensions axis significance (5-D). There also exists an additional temporal axis of unknown direction but simple timelines cannot properly fix the timeline/temporal axis of the Ghost Zone, indicating some significance of the unknown axis (possibly 6-D)
However, I'd like to hear from the actual knowledgeable members who know what the heck there actually talking about to see if this stuff even qualifies and thus, the agreements, disagreements will be set up like this....
Agree (Low 1-C, possibly 1-C): Plank69 (Fine with an extra temporal dimension but neutral on higher spatial dimension), The_2nd_Existential_Seed, ByArrow, ShakeResounding, Oliver_de_jesus, Eseseso (Agree's with Plank69), Aolphl, Executor_N0,
Agree (Low 1-C): Vietthai96,
Agree (Just the info update, still 2-A):
Disagree (The update/upgrade as a whole):
Neutral (Undecided/Just here to goon): Vietthai96 (1-C),
And that's all, please state what you agree or disagree with so I know where to put you, and if you're here to just watch and goon around (you know who you are), I ask you simply keep that to a minimum, as I've noticed these times of threads suffer from that type of
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