Dank Souls - It gets Danker

[Sir_Ovens]

Pretty big Dark Souls revision. I'm not sure if I'm able to cover everything since I have yet to go through literally every item in all three games, but here is a big chunk of it.

AP for Fodder
Amelia has made this calc, which values at 9-B. This should scale to fodder Hollows and any other character on their level such as Murkmen. While the feat was performed by the player character, the exact same feat can be performed by the Hollow hiding behind the boxes. Any veteran Dark Souls nerd can back me up on this.

P&A Revisions
Here comes the big one.

Sealing for Gods - This should be listed as Possibly since we aren't sure if this is something all Gods can do or just important ones like Gwyn. Gwyn himself will most definitely get it since anything that happens in the verse regarding the Gods is usually caused by him.

Dragons get Type 2 Immortality - The Ringed City Knights use Everlasting Dragon heads as weapons. They're able to reawaken them temporarily to attack. Their descriptions even state that they aren't dead. This would only apply for original Dragons, however. So Midir would get it, but not Gaping Dragon.

Dragons also get Inorganic Physiology because their hide is made of stone. This ties into their Type 2 Immortality since it explains why they have it in the first place. They're made of stone.

Dragonslayer Armour gets Type 2 Immortality, Resurrection (Not combat applicable), and Resistance to Soul Manipulation - Pretty straightforward. It is literally a suit of armor powered by a memory. It can get back up whenever it wants as confirmed by it coming back to life in the Ringed City despite it having been eons since Ashen One fought it in Lothric.

Gwynevere gets Power Bestowal through Divine Blessing - Don't ask me where the water comes from, use your imagination.

Everyone gets Resistance to Lightning Manipulation, Holy Manipulation, Blood Manipulation, Darkness Manipulation, Curse Manipulation, Ice Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Magic, Poison Manipulation, and Soul Manipulation - Ok this one will take some time to explain, but bear with me. Every character in Dark Souls - and I mean that literally - has a resistance bar for each of the above ailments. It varies for each game, but Dark Souls 3 has characters from earlier games, and since Dark Souls 3 is the game with all the resistances, it stands to reason that past games should scale. As for why resistance bars grant resistance, the principle applies to D&D, which was where I got the concept from. If said ailment doesn't immediately take effect, it counts as a resistance. This principle would also apply to characters who have obvious weaknesses to certain elements like Dragons being weak to lightning. We simply assume that they have lesser resistance, but not 0.

By the way, Miracles are divine in nature, as such any Miracle attack would double as having Holy Manipulation, hence the Resistance to Holy Manipulation above.

Chosen Undead gets Unholy Manipulation (Which doubles as Damage Boost against Holy aligned characters), Damage Boost (Against Dark aligned characters), Death Manipulation, Heath Absorption, and Power Bestowal - Pretty straightforward. Item descriptions tell it all.

Bearer of the Curse gets Spatial Manipulation - Again, the item description makes it clear.

Ashen One gets Unholy Manipulation and Damage Reduction with Statistics Amplification - Same reason Chosen Undead has them.

All three protagonists get Transformation for being able to turn into Dragons - Straightforward. Also, they should get Natural Weaponry and Breath Attack in addition.

The greater your soul the more you resist the Undead Curse - A concept introduced in Dark Souls 2. Now don't get it twisted, this isn't outright immunity. Those with powerful souls can and will eventually succumb to the curse of Hollowing. However, stronger souls will prolong this effect. This is obviously apparent with the Bearer of the Curse, but we can see this concept at play with other characters such as the Chosen Undead and Iudex Gundyr. Both are legends in their own right who have gone through longs periods of time without succumbing to becoming Hollow.

This should grant important Undead characters resistance to Power Nullification and Statistics Reduction since those are the effects of Hollowing.

King of the Storm profile means Nameless King gets split into Pre-Absorption and Post-Absorption - I made a King of the Storm profile. This means Nameless King should have his keys split into Pre-Absorption and Post-Absorption.

All Gods have Soul Absorption - This should be listed as Possibly since it's customary and not something that was directly stated to be true for every God.

All Undead have Soul Absorption - Here's something that is decidedly true. Opening narration for Dark Souls 2 states that Hollows feed on souls. All Undead should thus have this.

Dark Spirits are ghosts - This one may be controversial, but hear me out. There are instances that justify this such as Creighton and Alva. Both are characters that have canonically died but returned as Dark Spirits. There's a whole thing with Alva, Zulie, and Karla that I won't expand too much upon, but just know that Alva's Dark Spirit protects both Karla before the Irithyll Dungeon and Zulie's corpse in the Ringed City. Given their combined lore, it is heavily insinuated that Alva died together with Zulie and his soul protects her body from being defiled.

Creigton's case is similar in that the man's corpse is on the Irithyll Bridge but his Dark Spirit still harasses you and Sirris. Also one of the dozens of possibilities includes you killing him in Dark Souls 2 so...

What this would do is give Dark Spirits Incorporeality and anyone who can use any dimension-hopping item like Soap Stones, Astral Projection. Of course, this also gives everyone and their mother Non-Physical Interaction as well.

Black Knight weaponry gets Damage Boost against Demons - Because racism is badass.

Filthy Dex builds get Acrobatics - Absolutely disgusting. Applies to anyone who uses a Katana or Dex scaling weapon with a backflip for a weapon art. Surprisingly, Gael would get this too.

Miracles/Fath scaling grant Resurrection Negation against Necromancers - Sorry skelebros. Hate to do this on spooky month, but Faith scaling items and Miracles cause resurrecting Skeletons to not do that.

Sorcery and Pyromancy are Soul Manipulation - I think the scan is on Big Hat Logan's profile, but essentially, the two aforementioned forms of magic all originate from the soul. Pyromancy is stated to be a deeply personal art that is different for each person as it is generated from one's soul. There is a statement for Sorcery about literally originating from the soul but I can't seem to find the scan off the top of my head.

Miracles are Subjective Reality - As stated by Divine Phoenix, Miracles are tales passed down that retell the story of their conception. Performing a Miracle is merely retelling said story, granting you the power from which the Miracle was cast.

Everyone gets Non-Physical Interaction - I feel like this is redundant given the Dark Spirits point but just in case: everyone can hold souls in their hands. No duh. The Ghosts in New Londo are just built different, and I mean that literally. You need to be cursed to touch them, which is not a requirement for every other Non-Corporeal Dark Spirit or soul in the game. That should be enough proof that they are the exception, not the rule.

Gods should have some small Resistance to the Abyss - This is apparent with Wolnir's bracelets and Ringed City Knights having their darkness sealed by the Gods.

And that's everything for now. Do let me know if there are things I left out.​

 

[Dalesean027]

Ayeeee dank souls lets goo, this looks good going through with glance at what you've posted. (Worth it for me to have beaten Dark Souls 3)

 

[Paul_Frank]

Having looked it over, yeah everything in the op makes sense, I agree

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

Seems largely fine, that said, I don't think I agree with Miracles being soul stuff.

Mostly because Miracles are pretty consistently referred to as "tales", and the description for Force and Wrath of the Gods states the former to be an incomplete retelling of the latter. In short, I think it's more accurate to say they're the retelling of stories, which would probably make them something like Subjective Reality instead.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

I'll give opinions in the morning, when I'm not dying from sleep deprivation.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Also forgot to mention:

Hollows can die. Undead cannot. While the two are intertwined, it is important to note the distinction between them. Any properly Hollowed character can be killed and they won't return. Examples of this include Siegmeyer, Sirris, Horace, etc.

Remember, the whole point of Siegmeyer's questline is that when he eventually became Hollow, Sieglinde could not bring him back. She was happy to kill him over and over while Undead because that would bring him back to her but the moment he turned Hollow, she lost all hope of ever seeing him again. (Also you did this, you monster)

 

[DarkGrath]

All of this seems perfectly justified, and I'm honestly surprised some of these weren't already on the profiles.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

One more other thing, Gods should have some small resistance to the Abyss. This is apparent with Wolnir's bracelets and Ringed City Knights having their darkness sealed by the Gods. I will add this to the CRT above.

I also drafted an Abyss Manipulation page if anyone is interested. Should be given to any character with any significant amount of control over the Abyss like Pus of Man or Manus.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Following! Congrats Ovens, for the work that's gone into this!

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Following! Congrats Ovens, for the work that's gone into this!

Thanks!

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Seems largely fine, that said, I don't think I agree with Miracles being soul stuff.

Mostly because Miracles are pretty consistently referred to as "tales", and the description for Force and Wrath of the Gods states the former to be an incomplete retelling of the latter. In short, I think it's more accurate to say they're the retelling of stories, which would probably make them something like Subjective Reality instead.

I will account for this and adjust the OP.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Don't ask me where the water comes from, use your imagination.

Hehehehehe, it ain't water!

Regardless I agree with this CRT

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Hollows can die. Undead cannot. While the two are intertwined, it is important to note the distinction between them. Any properly Hollowed character can be killed and they won't return. Examples of this include Siegmeyer, Sirris, Horace, etc.

This I straight up just disagree with though. If hollows can be killed, then why do we need places like the Undead Settlement and Asylum?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

This I straight up just disagree with though. If hollows can be killed, then why do we need places like the Undead Settlement and Asylum?

Fully Hollowed Undead can die. But Undead like the Bearer of the Curse who have not yet forgotten their reason for living will continue to persist. Undead Settlement, Undead Purgatory, and Undead Asylum are places for Undead, left to Hollow out and eventually die. Notice how they're not called Hollow Settlement, Hollow Purgatory, and Hollow Asylum.

Also, lore-wise it makes more sense that Hollows can die. Any NPC that Hollows out is treated as truly gone, never to return. When you kill Hollowed out NPCs, they leave their loot and you never see them again. It was what made Sieglinde's questline tragic. The entire emotional weight hinges on Siegmeyer never coming back.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I will get to this eventually.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

AP for Fodder: I see nothing wrong with this, if anything this is a lowball given there are larger things they could destroy, or sets of multiple barrels.

P&A Revisions:

• Sealing: Somewhat disagree. The mere mention of a seal does not a Sealing power make. I realize this is being used to refer to the Darksign, I believe, but if that is the case I would like you to justify it a lot better.
• Type 2 Immortality for Dragons: Begrudgingly agree. Dragons do die in combat without a head- but through some mechanism of the shield they can briefly restore life to them. This should be extremely limited.
• Inorganic Physiology: No. Their hide being made of stone isn't the same as the entirety of their being being made of stone. We have also seen dragons that aren't outright made of stone.
• Dragonslayer Armor: I'm shocked you're not suggesting Inorganic Physiology here, though the page may well already have this. In any case, I see no problems here.
• Power Bestowal: What exactly is that bestowing? Or do you refer to the fact that the item exists? If the latter, I dislike the logic there.
• Resistance: I think this has a staunch difference from D&D, primarily in that in D&D we are actually shown that these resistances are above what is normal. A commoner in D&D has no resistances. None whatsoever. D&D also acknowledges these resistances (for example, Drizzt Do'Urden has indeed proven himself greatly resistant to poison). Therefore I'm very finicky here- you don't establish a baseline at all. I think major characters getting this is fine, though if one character has a particularly shit resistance to something (so much so that anyone playing the game might consider it a weakness), I don't think we should give them said resistance.
• Miracles and Holy Manipulation: I think Holy Manipulation is fine, I am against the Subjective Reality interpretation presented above.
• Additions to Chosen, Bearer, and Ashen: Agree across the board barring Power Bestowal, I think that evidence is relatively weak. I also suggest a note that the Death Manip isn't an instant kill or anything, the text describes it as acting similar to a toxin.
• Souls and the Undead Curse: Absolutely not. It negates the curse, it doesn't state it treats the individual symptoms. This, unfortunately, is just further resistance to Curse Manipulation.
• Nameless King Fixes: Alright, no problem here.
• Soul Absorption for Gods: Again, no particular complain on this front. Smough and Ornstein are also evidence of this. I think it is actually fair to say that all gods do absolutely have this, without the need for a "possibly" clause.
• Soul Absorption for Undead: No complaint here.
• Dark Spirits are Ghosts: Ehhh. I get where you're coming from, but something something time is convoluted, this pretty aptly negates any reasoning in favor of them being ghosts. I'm against this one. It also doesn't help that there are genuine ghosts in Dark Souls 1, that you can't hit without special means. That sorta implies a staunch difference between the two.
• Racist Black Knights: This is also fine.
• Dex Builds Acrobatics: I've been known to flip about the place a time or two, this is fine.
• Res Neg for Miracles: I think it is more like Power Null against Unholy Manipulation, implicitly. Other undead known to resurrect come back fine. This is specifically a counteracting ability.
• Sorcery/Pyromancy as Soul Manipulation: I've no complaints for this. Seems fine.
• Miracles are Subjective Reality: You really should remove your last point if you intend to suggest this, but I still greatly disagree with this interpretation. The simple fact that stories are the methodology of casting does not imply one must believe the stories to cause the miracles. Much like spells in other games have a verbal component, it is my opinion that the stories here are merely the verbal component of the spell- and much, much more evidence must be provided for them to be considered anything more.
• Non-Physical Interaction with the Soul: Eh. Disagree. Again, we are shown that we very specifically cannot hit ghosts in these games without something to aid us, which implies to me that souls must be something different. For example, soul dregs are mentioned to have some level of physicality to them, as they have mass and weight (Human Dregs item description). Thus I don't think soul items are actually considered a soul one can grab and carry in its truest form.
• Gods have Resistance to the Dark: Disagree, with some exceptions. Wolnir should have it, Artorias should have it with equipment, otherwise Gods seem to be fairly easily overcome by the Abyss when faced with its genuine power.

That should cover it, I think?

 

[Paul_Frank]

For the dragons, I'll note that Miyazaki has given some explanation on them before, whether this counts as evidence for inorganic or not is up to you guys

Miyazaki: The Stone Dragon is not alive. The Ancient Dragons are half-living, half-element, so there's no pain for them. In the opening cinematic, it's shown that they were there before there was life. So yeah, they don't feel pain, kinda like Akuma Shogun From the Kinnikuman series. He doesn't possess it's own body, so he doesn't feel pain. He fusions with Akuma Kishi and builds its body.].

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That is some substantiating evidence, yeah.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'll speak on the points you disagree with.

Inorganic Physiology: No. Their hide being made of stone isn't the same as the entirety of their being being made of stone. We have also seen dragons that aren't outright made of stone.

Paul brought up more proof above so I'll leave it at that.

Power Bestowal: What exactly is that bestowing? Or do you refer to the fact that the item exists? If the latter, I dislike the logic there.

The item description explicitly states that she blessed the water to give it its healing properties.

Resistance: I think this has a staunch difference from D&D, primarily in that in D&D we are actually shown that these resistances are above what is normal. A commoner in D&D has no resistances. None whatsoever. D&D also acknowledges these resistances (for example, Drizzt Do'Urden has indeed proven himself greatly resistant to poison). Therefore I'm very finicky here- you don't establish a baseline at all. I think major characters getting this is fine, though if one character has a particularly shit resistance to something (so much so that anyone playing the game might consider it a weakness), I don't think we should give them said resistance.

Yeah, this is fine.

Additions to Chosen, Bearer, and Ashen: Agree across the board barring Power Bestowal, I think that evidence is relatively weak. I also suggest a note that the Death Manip isn't an instant kill or anything, the text describes it as acting similar to a toxin.

I'm not sure what increasing ally AP counts for in your book, but I think that's Power Bestowal. Also, I have not gone through the entire catalogue of spells in DS3 but I'm pretty sure there are some spells that boost ally statistics. I'll see if I can find them. I'll be sure to note the Death Manipulation as not instant kill.

Souls and the Undead Curse: Absolutely not. It negates the curse, it doesn't state it treats the individual symptoms. This, unfortunately, is just further resistance to Curse Manipulation.

I take it your stance would then be stronger souls have greater curse resistance?

Dark Spirits are Ghosts: Ehhh. I get where you're coming from, but something something time is convoluted, this pretty aptly negates any reasoning in favor of them being ghosts. I'm against this one. It also doesn't help that there are genuine ghosts in Dark Souls 1, that you can't hit without special means. That sorta implies a staunch difference between the two.

DS1 Ghosts are a special case, I feel. Since they are entirely made up of women with daggers as opposed to actual township. They also require one to be cursed or wield a cursed weapon to damage, something you don't need to use against Dark Spirits. Also, while I get the "time is convoluted" argument, Alva is blatantly protecting his daughter, Karla, past death. Dark Souls 2 also has more emphasis on Dark Spirits being dead with Lucatiel's brother being a Dark Spirit himself. I'm sure with enough time, I can pull up every invasion that happens past a character's death.

Res Neg for Miracles: I think it is more like Power Null against Unholy Manipulation, implicitly. Other undead known to resurrect come back fine. This is specifically a counteracting ability.

This is fine with me as well.

Miracles are Subjective Reality: You really should remove your last point if you intend to suggest this, but I still greatly disagree with this interpretation. The simple fact that stories are the methodology of casting does not imply one must believe the stories to cause the miracles. Much like spells in other games have a verbal component, it is my opinion that the stories here are merely the verbal component of the spell- and much, much more evidence must be provided for them to be considered anything more.

This is more so a point for Phoenix, since she made the distinction. I was originally going to suggest that Miracles are Soul Manipulation as well.

Non-Physical Interaction with the Soul: Eh. Disagree. Again, we are shown that we very specifically cannot hit ghosts in these games without something to aid us, which implies to me that souls must be something different. For example, soul dregs are mentioned to have some level of physicality to them, as they have mass and weight (Human Dregs item description). Thus I don't think soul items are actually considered a soul one can grab and carry in its truest form.

My point above covers this. I don't think Soul Dregs have literal weight. Rather, I believe they are simply "dense" in the sense that they will sink to the bottom of the Earth. Remember, without the Darkwraith Covenant, people can't stand on the Abyss, the Deep being an interpretation of it.

Gods have Resistance to the Dark: Disagree, with some exceptions. Wolnir should have it, Artorias should have it with equipment, otherwise Gods seem to be fairly easily overcome by the Abyss when faced with its genuine power.

I'm not saying Gods resist the Abyss outright. I'm saying compared to a Human who is naturally aligned to Dark and more susceptible to corruption, the Gods are less susceptible. Off the top of my head, I really cannot think of a single instance of a God falling to the Abyss besides Artorias. Even the Dragon Midir did not fall to the Dark so easily and he was eating the thing straight up for eons.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Miracles are somewhat implied to depend on the belief of the caster, as several miracles and chimes make note of the fact that faith is a thing that affects their power in lore

Sacred chime for casting miracles of the Gods, of the type given to Lothric priests. To cast a miracle, the caster learns a tale of the Gods, and says a prayer to be blessed by its revelations. The faith of the supplicant affects the strength of the miracle.

Miracle superior to Heal. Restores moderate HP for self and those in the vicinity. Miracles are fruit of the study of divine tales, a blessing received from the gods, through acts of prayer. Miracle strength depends on the caster's faith.

Which could imply that faith in these stories is what makes it work.

However the existence of the chime that let's you cast using int, and the fact that it was sealed for being heretical does imply that they don't really require faith to work, and that the church doesn't want people to know that, there was also an explanation in either Dark Souls or maybe Demon Souls (if it was the latter ignore it cause they're different), where they basically said that miracles are just rudimentary sorceries and the explanations with faith and chimes was just a cover up for that fact

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'll reply, there's a few very odd takes here, I think.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Goodie.

The item description explicitly states that she blessed the water to give it its healing properties.

We have a page for blessings, I thought.

I'm not sure what increasing ally AP counts for in your book, but I think that's Power Bestowal. Also, I have not gone through the entire catalogue of spells in DS3 but I'm pretty sure there are some spells that boost ally statistics. I'll see if I can find them. I'll be sure to note the Death Manipulation as not instant kill.

Stat Amping, if you find them. There are spells like the one used by the cleric in Lothric Castle that buffs invaders, if that's what you mean. Dunno if there are player instances of that.

I take it your stance would then be stronger souls have greater curse resistance?

Could be.

DS1 Ghosts are a special case, I feel. Since they are entirely made up of women with daggers as opposed to actual township. They also require one to be cursed or wield a cursed weapon to damage, something you don't need to use against Dark Spirits. Also, while I get the "time is convoluted" argument, Alva is blatantly protecting his daughter, Karla, past death. Dark Souls 2 also has more emphasis on Dark Spirits being dead with Lucatiel's brother being a Dark Spirit himself. I'm sure with enough time, I can pull up every invasion that happens past a character's death.

Your argument here is extremely strange. Ovens, I'm saying the ghosts in DS1 require things to hit, whereas the Dark Spirits don't (who, mind you, already have fairly flimsy evidence for being ghosts in the first place). So bringing up that the ghosts require said thing to hit them doesn't seem like a debunk to me. Your other parts of this debunk also don't really counteract the fact that time is excessively fucky in-game. Dark spirits can be dead or what have you, though I seem to recall Vaati's theory on the subject being that they left their soapstone/dark spirit/whatever behind and then can just come back when prompted as the dark spirit. I'm still hard against Incorporeality for them.

My point above covers this. I don't think Soul Dregs have literal weight. Rather, I believe they are simply "dense" in the sense that they will sink to the bottom of the Earth. Remember, without the Darkwraith Covenant, people can't stand on the Abyss, the Deep being an interpretation of it.

I still disagree with the creative interpretation being used here.

I'm not saying Gods resist the Abyss outright. I'm saying compared to a Human who is naturally aligned to Dark and more susceptible to corruption, the Gods are less susceptible. Off the top of my head, I really cannot think of a single instance of a God falling to the Abyss besides Artorias. Even the Dragon Midir did not fall to the Dark so easily and he was eating the thing straight up for eons.

This seems more to me that humans have a weakness towards it. The gods fall to it just fine. Gwyn fears it, Artorias fell to it, and you receive warnings from others about the dangers of it. Midir is not a god, Ovens.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

For the Subjective Reality thing, I kind of just don't get the reasoning behind that disagreement.

For one, I never really claimed belief was necessary, just that knowing the story and retelling it was, and that the act of retelling it makes that into reality.

And for two, I don't quite understand why much more evidence would be needed, given all that this is saying is that Miracles work off of Subjective Reality, in the form of recounting their story, and then that story becoming real in the form of that miracle. It's not that any Miracle user can imagine anything they want into reality, just that this ability is how Miracles function, the same way how Magic in fiction often functions off of Reality Warping and the like. In practice, this doesn't actually change or give them much of anything, just explains what the origin of the ability is, since, given their descriptions, I felt that saying their origin is from souls in the same way Sorceries are was not accurate.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

We have a page for blessings, I thought.

Yeah this works.

Stat Amping, if you find them. There are spells like the one used by the cleric in Lothric Castle that buffs invaders, if that's what you mean. Dunno if there are player instances of that.

I can work with stat amping.

Could be.

I'll list you as a maybe.

Your argument here is extremely strange. Ovens, I'm saying the ghosts in DS1 require things to hit, whereas the Dark Spirits don't (who, mind you, already have fairly flimsy evidence for being ghosts in the first place). So bringing up that the ghosts require said thing to hit them doesn't seem like a debunk to me. Your other parts of this debunk also don't really counteract the fact that time is excessively fucky in-game. Dark spirits can be dead or what have you, though I seem to recall Vaati's theory on the subject being that they left their soapstone/dark spirit/whatever behind and then can just come back when prompted as the dark spirit. I'm still hard against Incorporeality for them.

I guess. But dimensional hopping items should still give summoning and dimensional travel. I believe a lot of characters are missing this despite them being able to leave their soap signs and invade.

I still disagree with the creative interpretation being used here.

I mean there's not really anything to liken the Deep to. It's literally just the Abyss as an ocean.

This seems more to me that humans have a weakness towards it. The gods fall to it just fine. Gwyn fears it, Artorias fell to it, and you receive warnings from others about the dangers of it. Midir is not a god, Ovens.

My argument was more Gods > Dragons therefore they upscale but I guess your interpretation is fine too.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The defense for Miracles being Subjective Reality solely boils down to their casting being tied to the stories related to them. The specific mechanics of this are not elaborated on further than that. We don't know the stories, we don't know if the miracles bring "unreality" into "reality" as per our ability page, solely that the stories are tied to the casting of these spells.

We absolutely need proof that something functions like subjective reality to classify it as such, yes. We don't know that the stories are becoming real, this is a conclusion you're drawing from the fact that stories are tied to their spellcasting. By that I mean, one can learn miracles that are apparently within the holy storybooks. Do you suspect Gwyn required these stories, which in all likelihood literally did not exist when he cast the first miracles? Is that the honest interpretation of events I'm being presented with here?

I can't really see any defense of this interpretation, so I remain against it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I guess. But dimensional hopping items should still give summoning and dimensional travel. I believe a lot of characters are missing this despite them being able to leave their soap signs and invade.

Any character known to make use of soap stones can have these, yes. Not all undead bear a soapstone and thus should not be listed with the ability. Other than that I don't have any issue with this.

I mean there's not really anything to liken the Deep to. It's literally just the Abyss as an ocean.

Sure but that's hardly the major issue here. The metaphor isn't the point.

My argument was more Gods > Dragons therefore they upscale but I guess your interpretation is fine too.

As a reminder, in terms of core stats, a single dragon was a threat to all of Anor Londo (Kalameet) and the Gods were losing the war with the Dragons until Seathe revealed their weakness and the Gods exploited it. Further, I don't like the logic of "This one is stronger and thus has better resistance to unrelated thing" without some form of substantiating evidence.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Also, can we split Gwyn's profile into keys?

Lord of Sunlight | Lord of Cinder

High 4-C for the first key and 4-C for the second. I don't know why he's listed so funkily on his profile.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Honestly his whole profile could use some touching up, while we're at it. References, a maybe less-shit profile image, the works.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I mean I have been asking for this render of Gwyn for months and no one has responded yet so

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean I have been asking for this render of Gwyn for months and no one has responded yet so

His hand is cut off in that. It would be slightly better, though.

You could try to learn image rendering yourself, y'know. It isn't difficult for simple ones like that, just potentially time consuming.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

The cut off hand would make it look rather strange, yeah.

As for the Subjective Reality thing, I suppose I can understand the mechanisms not being explained enough, Souls being heavily interpretation based and all that. That said though, seeing as Miracles are reenactments of those stories, the people who originally did them, like Gwyn, wouldn't have the same apply, since they wouldn't be reenacting anything. The claim is more along the lines of anyone using it after the fact is reenacting that story. Also the unreality thing doesn't have to be that overt, Subjective Reality tends to be given for really just any case of "makes x into reality".

I personally think it's enough to say it's at least possibly that, but I'm not like, super set on it. I don't think saying it derives from souls works either though, since I don't really recall anything implying that unlike with Sorcery and Pyromancy. So I guess it may just be too vague to assign any specific mechanic.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The cut off hand would make it look rather strange, yeah.

As for the Subjective Reality thing, I suppose I can understand the mechanisms not being explained enough, Souls being heavily interpretation based and all that. That said though, seeing as Miracles are reenactments of those stories, the people who originally did them, like Gwyn, wouldn't have the same apply, since they wouldn't be reenacting anything. The claim is more along the lines of anyone using it after the fact is reenacting that story. Also the unreality thing doesn't have to be that overt, Subjective Reality tends to be given for really just any case of "makes x into reality".

I personally think it's enough to say it's at least possibly that, but I'm not like, super set on it. I don't think saying it derives from souls works either though, since I don't really recall anything implying that unlike with Sorcery and Pyromancy. So I guess it may just be too vague to assign any specific mechanic.

Seems to me, then, that the miracles simply have the instructions for performing the spells contained within them, thus allowing people to use them. I highly doubt it is Subjective Reality because of this. I'm still just fine with Holy Manipulation.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Im finding myself agreeing with Bambu more here.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Since the King of the Storm has a Profile now, we should link that in the Nameless King's Equipment where it says "his stormdrake".

Also, I agree with the OP but I'm waiting for the debate between Ovens, Bambu and Phoenix to finish before I agree to those.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

I literally forgot about this and now it's the middle of the night again and I'm tired. ****.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I literally forgot about this and now it's the middle of the night again and I'm tired. ****.

Bruh Moment.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Bump.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If my remaining arguments for change are reflected in the CRT, I'm fine. Given no rebuttal came back I suspect they are?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah I'm fine with everything. Although, I don't know if Phoenix wants to push the subjective reality miracles further.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

I don't care that much for it.

I don't agree with "the stories are components" as an interpretation, mostly because the miracles themselves are described as stories, rather than that being what is used to cast them, and the fact that changing the story directly changes the miracle that you cast (as with telling an incomplete story resulting in a weaker version of the original miracle and all), but this ultimately isn't that big of a point anyway, since it affects very little in practice.