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Crimson King (DT) vs Death of the Endless (DC)

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Putting Crimson Princess of the Endless on JBW instead of FC/OC

Naming her Queen instead of Princess not knowing that the Crimson Queen is CK's mom

Her not being a princess

Bad kitty! Bad!
 
Tfw the Crimson Queen is the mother of the King's avatar, but the true King is older than her.
 
Tfw being older than your mom.

But let's not derail this thread.

We should start a DT/Stephen King general.
 
I'm still laughing about how the literal embodiment of Death is more likable than Mordred.

I've been wanting to make a thread like that, but DT matches (outside of the ones with Pennywise) have been so scarcely populated until recently that I wasn't sure there was even an audience for one of those threads here.

But yeah, enough derailing. We're still at four votes for inconclusive
 
Death obviously wins, considering Dis' direct avatar lost to some nerd who draws pictures, a flower, and Charles Miner from "The Office".

On a serious note, my money is most likely on inconclusive, though if you asked me to shoot with my mind put a gun to my head, I'd probably have a very slight leaning towards Dis due to just how potent some of his fate and narrative based abilities are.
 
^I was originally banking on Dis winning this with said fate/narrative powers, believe it or not. But then that argument got hard-countered like a son of a bitch.

Even though he can't put her down for good, I'd reckon he's actually the stronger of the two in terms of both his sheer power and his abilities themselves (A smalll case in point being how Death VS PR Beyonder was considered fair, but Dis VS PR Beyonder was agreed to be a stomp. Which is actually pretty ******* nonsensical, since both of those fights literally boil down to "Beyonder can't kill them and gets outhaxed hard")

Anywho, five for inconclusive?
 
If you can argue in favor of Dis, go all for it. I still think that DC's "creations," aren't > DT's infinitely infinitely infinite multiverses and every other layer of creation imaginable, for instance. Also, she had no claim over 1-A or higher entities like Lucifer of Michael, anyway. Additionally, I see there being no way CK would be affected by the book since he was beyond all of existence anyway.

I will add based on further clarification.
 
From what I gather, it's not so much that they're 'superior' to the DT setting. It's due to the fact that they're functionally the same as the DT setting, but there's a literal infinite number of them within DC's Void.

Which would basically mean that Dis has to travel to literally all of them and obliterate them one by one in order to rid himself of Death for good. That's like an immormal man wandering through an endless realm full of plates and trying to smash them all in order to win a contest.

Has nothing to do with Dis being inferior, as I already clarified why that isn't the case. It's just a consequence of DC's verse itself being infinitely larger in scale than the DT verse ever set out to be.
 
But what's to suggest he couldn't? The only reason he can't restructure all of existence (literally everything, including multiple other realities) is because of Gan.
 
Let me explain this as best I can.

Imagine the Prim, a vast, outerversal (we're going to assume it's outerversal) space where Gan and beings of comparable stature exist and thrive. The realm in which Gan lives transcends the Dark Tower, an infinitely-layered multiverse.

Now imagine everything in the main DC setting which exists underneath the Void. Existence underneath the Void been proven to be just as infinitely-layered as the creation which is held together by the Dark Tower, and the Void has been proven to be an outerversal space which transcends that infinite layering. This is concrete.

Suppose for just this moment that the Void and the Prim are the same place, and that the infinitely-layered creation which serves as DC's main setting exists right next-door to the infinitely-layered creation which serves as DT's main setting. Both are the same size, and both exist underneath this outerversal void.

Now let's take that vision even further. Suppose those two realms of the same size are simply two of their kind, existing in an infinitely-reaching sea of other High Hyperversal realms which are also the exact same size as the two of them are on their own, all of which are encompassed by the outerversal void surrounding/transcending them.

And Death is present somewhere in each and every one.

That's what's preventing the King from ending her for good: He can't reach all of that shit at once. Even if he can wander the void sitting above all of these realms, his comparatively limited reach means that, regardless of his raw power and ridiculous abilities, he can only effectively destroy one at a time.

As The Man In Black said to The Gunslinger, "Size defeats us!" sorrynotsorry
 
Aeyu said:
If you can argue in favor of Dis, go all for it. I still think that DC's "creations," aren't > DT's infinitely infinitely infinite multiverses and every other layer of creation imaginable, for instance. Also, she had no claim over 1-A or higher entities like Lucifer of Michael, anyway. Additionally, I see there being no way CK would be affected by the book since he was beyond all of existence anyway.
I will add based on further clarification.
Click to expand...
It's not that CK would be affected by the Book, Its that he cant do anything against the book

Also, Destiny isn't the one who created or wrote the Book, Its either father Time or The Presence himself both who are obviously above CK.

the Book also is the representation of the Presence's deterministic approach to Creation.

The Void is like a Void beyond Void.Its above several outerversal voids like The Realm of Mother Night, The realm where the angels took Dr. Fate and the realm of Father Time.We know that the Void is at least 3 times higher than 3 outerversal Voids.What you're suggesting is that CK can restructure a Void that is above 3 outerversal Void and is also a High 1-A entity

Also, Creations constantly rise and fall, for CK to completely stop those then he needs to change the very nature of the Void itself

We both know that there's no way in hell that Crimson King is going to change the nature of a High 1-A entity
 
^Basically that.

He's stronger than her by an order of magnitude, and technically has better hax than her, but the very nature of what keeps her alive and present is infinitely above even the likes of him.

Reason I gave up even trying to make a point against it is because it's not something we can really argue against in the first place. It's a matter of size and scale.
 
1) I have seen a scan or comment of an author that The Presence was created by faith of mortals. Dark Tower Hyperverse contains all fictional (dreams, faith ect) and non-fictional worlds (the one character may be a fictional in the one world but if you enter to it you can see him as a real character)

2) Also the Dark Tower Biggerverse contains Cthulhu Mythos verse within itself:

'Sometimes,' Vetter said, stealing another of Farnham's Silk Cuts, 'I wonder about Dimensions.'


'Dimensions?'


'Yes, my good old son ― dimensions. Science fiction writers are always on about Dimensions, aren't they? Ever read science fiction, Farnham?'


'No,' Farnham said. He had decided this was some sort of elaborate leg-pull.


'What about Lovecraft? Ever read anything by him?'


'Never heard of him,' Farnham said. The last fiction he'd read for pleasure, in fact, had been a small Victorian Era pastiche called Two Gentlemen in Silk Knickers.


'Well, this fellow Lovecraft was always writing about Dimensions,' Vetter said, producing his box of railway matches. 'Dimensions close to ours. Full of these immortal monsters that would drive a man mad at one look. Frightful rubbish, of course. Except, whenever one of these people straggles in, I wonder if all of it was rubbish. I think to myself then ― when it's quiet and late at night, like now ― that our whole world, everything we think of as nice and normal and sane, might be like a big leather ball filled with air. Only in some places, the leather's scuffed almost down to nothing. Places where the barriers are thinner. Do you get me?' - Crouch End


But seriously I vote for "inconclusive".
 
Dude, no.We don't do that shit here.Dark Tower doesn't contain Cthulu Mythos.If we use that then everything contains everything

DC also claims to contain every fiction multiverses but we don't use that here because DC doesn't own all fictional works in existence.Same for Marvel

The Presence is 1-A if you're thinking that CK can defeat the presence or counter him then create a Content Revision Thread to downgrade the Presence
 
Also it depends on winconditions.

If it is "I can destroy your hyperverse faster than you mine" or "I'm able to rip Pre Retcon Beyonder to shreds faster than you" then I vote for TCK.
 
TheSandman31 said:
Dude, no.We don't do that shit here.Dark Tower doesn't contain Cthulu Mythos.If we use that then everything contains everything
DC also claims to contain every fiction multiverses but we don't use that here because DC doesn't own all fictional works in existence.Same for Marvel

The Presence is 1-A if you're thinking that CK can defeat the presence or counter him then create a Content Revision Thread to downgrade the Presence
Click to expand...
It was a joke.


I vote for "inconclusive".
 
I also want to add that CK isn't just battling a single Death but rather all perspectives of Death in existence.Means that he needs to kill a lot of Deaths since all perspectives of Death has always existed
 
@Cal: Nope. You didn't. lol

@Js: The fate of the world rests upon your shoulders this day.
 
Welp, that makes 7 votes for Inconclusive. (potentially 8, if I'm reading into Cal's comment correctly)

We still have one person who voted for CK way back towards the top of the thread, I think. But other than that, I think this is a fairly decisive conclusion.
 
I checked, and the only vote left for CK is basically a FRA vote latched onto my own reasoning. (Which I changed)

Probably doesn't count at this point, admittedly.
 
Js250476 said:
So 2 stalemates against the Endless not bad at all I'd say kudos to Crimson King for such a feat
Click to expand...
Remember when he was a pathetically weak 1A?

Best. Downgrades. Ever.
 
By extension, this also means that Gan and Bessa are even more un-****-withable High 1-Bs than CK is, since they're both vastly superior to him in-canon.

Although, going by the above info, even those two wouldn't be able to do more than stalemate the Endless in a fight. (Especially if we're lowballing them to High 1-B)

And yes, "un-****-withable" is a word now.
 
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