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Courage, the Cowardly Dog CRT

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I get it's more a part that you're porting from the current profile, but why is that scan Stellar LS?

That "star"....
  1. Looks nothing like a real star.
  2. Visibly, radiates almost zero heat.
  3. Visibly, has almost zero gravitational influence.
  4. Visibly, is far tinier than any actual star.
So why is it treated as an actual star?

Why would our standards be so much lower for other stellar objects, than for ones like black holes?

Similarly, AP seems to have many flaws:
  1. The Eustace feat doesn't demonstrate him surviving that. In fact, he appears transformed into the constellation, which isn't surviving as he ordinarily does.
    • On top of that, High 4-C explosions don't transform people into animate constellations. That clearly involves some measure of reality warping, which would make it not something that's physically tanked.
  2. The Shadow feat has nothing indicating that a Universal Energy System is at play which would scale that constellation transformation to physical attacks.
  3. I find the sun-scream feat really strange to use because the answer to "How much energy does it take to scream loud enough for the sun to be destroyed" is not "High 4-C" it's "There is nothing in physics that remotely corresponds to this", such an unquantifiable feat shouldn't be the primary basis for such a rating.
  4. The last feat link doesn't involve "destroying the moon", it involves creating a hole in it, which is lower. And, if pixel-scaled to the characters themselves, or if we take into account the "moon"'s apparent hollowness in that scene, would lead to an even lower result.
And to top it all off, as our Attack Potency page says, characters should only get Varies ratings if there's a canonical explanation for why their statistics fluctuate. Cartoon characters being inconsistent without an explanation is not sufficient.
 
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Agnaa said:
I find the sun-scream feat really strange to use because the answer to "How much energy does it take to scream loud enough for the sun to be destroyed" is not "High 4-C" it's "There is nothing in physics that remotely corresponds to this", such an unquantifiable feat shouldn't be the primary basis for such a rating.
Click to expand...
Shattering the Sun with a scream seems like 4-C to me, though you cannot possibly give it more than that due to it being a gag feat.

The rest I agree with. Courage being 4-C is questionable, but High 4-C and Stellar is a massive jump.

Agnaa said:
And to top it all off, as our Attack Potency page says, characters should only get Varies ratings if there's a canonical explanation for why their statistics fluctuate. Cartoon characters being inconsistent without an explanation is not sufficient.
Click to expand...
From what I can find, the change was done in April of 2019, but the Wiki Forum has been lost to time. So maybe it was just when cartoon characters were given a varies rating more often?

For the profile I do like the new format though.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Shattering the Sun with a scream seems like 4-C to me, though you cannot possibly give it more than that due to it being a gag feat.
Click to expand...
I like to think that our joule ratings are based off of physics when possible. Such a thing fails physical coherency from the outset, due to the area around Courage not being damaged at all by something that's apparently giving off 4-C energy omnidirectionally, and there being no air to carry a shockwave to the sun like that. If it were possible, the sun would not break apart in any way resembling that, and it would require energies ludicrously above 4-C anyway (if we handwave away the air issue).
Qawsedf234 said:
From what I can find, the change was done in April of 2019, but the Wiki Forum has been lost to time. So maybe it was just when cartoon characters were given a varies rating more often?
Click to expand...
Yeah the new Varies rules were fairly recent.
 
Propellus said:
Being inside the sun still has force in them considering it's overpressure.
Click to expand...
Kinda, but as stated in that thread, the exact extent can't be calculated. I had a talk to DT recently about calculating the durability of standing near a black hole, which was found to be non-feasible; all you could find would be the GPE exerted in moving away from a large source of gravity.

That's because, a gravitational source accelerates all matter in an object roughly equally, resulting in no damage being exerted. For massive and close gravitational objects, an incoming object doesn't get accelerated equally, but that causes spaghettification, and resisting that isn't within the purview of our tiering system.
 
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Since people are pointing out flaws in some of the justifications for Star (or higher) ratings, I wanted to ask: how consistent is 4-C for Courage? It sounds like there was an approved 7.9X10^39 J calculation which scales to Courage's durability via taking the character's hit (for the record, the baseline of Sun level is approximately 72X higher). There is also "Was completely fine after crashing through several planets" on the page, but not only is that not sourced, but no calc is given for that. Everything else was either debunked by Agnaa or relies on powerscaling back to Courage. This means that the Sun level feat is a one-off feat with only one other feat as supporting evidence (and 72X is still more than an order of magnitude so IDK if that even is supporting evidence).

If people decide the star feat is also illegitimate (split opinions have been given on that), that leaves only one High 5-A durability feat for Courage.

I wanted to ask to see which rating Courage should be moved to seeing as varies ratings are not allowed just for being an inconsistent cartoon character and users are pointing out problems with Courage's current ratings. If the 4-C/High 5-A feats aren't contradicted they sound fine to use, but if they are contradicted by anti-feats or peak/struggling feats they could be outliers due to how rare and imprecise the few scanned legitimate feats of that level are.
 
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Bro i wanted to give some small upgrades to Courage and i ended downgrading him what i did 😭
I only changed the "Power and abilities" section, the rest was already in it

I (Now) also changed the LS and the AP section

Agnaa said:
I get it's more a part that you're porting from the current profile, but why is that scan Stellar LS?

That "star"....
  1. Looks nothing like a real star.
  2. Visibly, radiates almost zero heat.
  3. Visibly, has almost zero gravitational influence.
  4. Visibly, is far tinier than any actual star.
So why is it treated as an actual star?

Why would our standards be so much lower for other stellar objects, than for ones like black holes?

Similarly, AP seems to have many flaws:
  1. The Eustace feat doesn't demonstrate him surviving that. In fact, he appears transformed into the constellation, which isn't surviving as he ordinarily does.
    • On top of that, High 4-C explosions don't transform people into animate constellations. That clearly involves some measure of reality warping, which would make it not something that's physically tanked.
  2. The Shadow feat has nothing indicating that a Universal Energy System is at play which would scale that constellation transformation to physical attacks.
  3. I find the sun-scream feat really strange to use because the answer to "How much energy does it take to scream loud enough for the sun to be destroyed" is not "High 4-C" it's "There is nothing in physics that remotely corresponds to this", such an unquantifiable feat shouldn't be the primary basis for such a rating.
  4. The last feat link doesn't involve "destroying the moon", it involves creating a hole in it, which is lower. And, if pixel-scaled to the characters themselves, or if we take into account the "moon"'s apparent hollowness in that scene, would lead to an even lower result.
And to top it all off, as our Attack Potency page says, characters should only get Varies ratings if there's a canonical explanation for why their statistics fluctuate. Cartoon characters being inconsistent without an explanation is not sufficient.
Click to expand...
Propellus said:
Being inside the sun still has force in them considering it's overpressure.
Click to expand...
Can you guys evaluate the CRT?

Agnaa said:
Kinda, but as stated in that thread, the exact extent can't be calculated. I had a talk to DT recently about calculating the durability of standing near a black hole, which was found to be non-feasible; all you could find would be the GPE exerted in moving away from a large source of gravity.

That's because, a gravitational source accelerates all matter in an object roughly equally, resulting in no damage being exerted. For massive and close gravitational objects, an incoming object doesn't get accelerated equally, but that causes spaghettification, and resisting that isn't within the purview of our tiering system.
Click to expand...
Then we should remove this from our "Reference for Common feats" page
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
Can you guys evaluate the CRT?
Click to expand...
I personally think the tier 4 stuff is still fine to keep as I see Courage still has some hint of consistency going around with this, as he also has a high 5-A feat lying around. But the Stellar LS should definitely be removed though

Accelerated_Evolution said:
Then we should remove this from our "Reference for Common feats" page
Click to expand...
That's gonna have to be in another thread to discuss the problems with the feat, but as of now it's not necessary at the moment.
 
Propellus said:
I personally think the tier 4 stuff is still fine to keep as I see Courage still has some hint of consistency going around with this, as he also has a high 5-A feat lying around. But the Stellar LS should definitely be removed though
Click to expand...
Ok then, i will probably rewatch the cartoon to search for feats but, per now, i will leave him as 8-A

So you agree with the changes?
Propellus said:
That's gonna have to be in another thread to discuss the problems with the feat, but as of now it's not necessary at the moment.
Click to expand...
Yeah, i agree
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
Then we should remove this from our "Reference for Common feats" page
Click to expand...
It's fine for heat durability, but that should be listed separately from force durability, is all.
Accelerated_Evolution said:
Can you guys evaluate the CRT?
Click to expand...
It's hard to directly compare, can you make a list of the abilities that were changed?
Propellus said:
I personally think the tier 4 stuff is still fine to keep as I see Courage still has some hint of consistency going around with this, as he also has a high 5-A feat lying around. But the Stellar LS should definitely be removed though
Click to expand...
I don't think there's any valid feat there besides the High 5-A dura one.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
Destroying the Sun with a scream is extremely casual. Was the High 5-A feat done casually?
Click to expand...
Not too sure if I would call the High 5-A necessarily casual as Courage just rather survives the Earth being thrown around like that, so it's rather a solid feat that rather just supports it rather than an anti-feat
 
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Agnaa said:
It's hard to directly compare, can you make a list of the abilities that were changed?
Click to expand...
I added Air manipulation, sealing, light manipulation, an upgrade to his regeneration and resistance to disease manipulation and transmutation
 
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Propellus said:
Not too sure if I would call the High 5-A necessarily casual as Courage just rather survives the Earth being thrown around like that
Click to expand...
If the High 5-A feat wasn't causal, then it can't be used as a supporting feat for 4-C, which then makes 4-C Courage a massive outlier.

Either someone makes a good case for High 5-A Courage, or we just leave him at 8-A (matter of fact, what's Courage's AP for 8-A? Just asking for something in the future).
 
Propellus said:
Why not? What's the actual issue with Courage destroying the sun with a scream?
Click to expand...
That it didn't damage the environment around it, indicating that it wasn't actually that strong. The feat contradicts itself.

Beyond that, it presents multiple physics issues; a scream can't be carried to the sun like that, a star hit with a powerful scream would not break apart like that, a star broken apart like that would not naturally fall down, and a powerful scream would not cause it to fall down.

You have to ignore literally everything about the feat except for a brief, contextless, textual description to find it calculable.

But if we do ignore all of that, due to the distances involved, the feat would be 4-B.
 
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Flowman777 said:
Wanted to ask: why wouldn't it be a "destroying the Sun from Earth" level feat?
Click to expand...

Because:
Agnaa said:
That it didn't damage the environment around it, indicating that it wasn't actually that strong. The feat contradicts itself.

Beyond that, it presents multiple physics issues; a scream can't be carried to the sun like that, a star hit with a powerful scream would not break apart like that, a star broken apart like that would not naturally fall down, and a powerful scream would not cause it to fall down.

You have to ignore literally everything about the feat except for a brief, contextless, textual description to find it calculable.

But if we do ignore all of that, due to the distances involved, the feat would be 4-B+.
Click to expand...

Also, i already tried to upgrade Courage to 4-B based on this calculation, but the feat is too unrealistic to be something more than 4-C
 
Agnaa said:
That it didn't damage the environment around it, indicating that it wasn't actually that strong. The feat contradicts itself.

Beyond that, it presents multiple physics issues; a scream can't be carried to the sun like that, a star hit with a powerful scream would not break apart like that, a star broken apart like that would not naturally fall down, and a powerful scream would not cause it to fall down.

You have to ignore literally everything about the feat except for a brief, contextless, textual description to find it calculable.
Click to expand...
I mean, shattering the sun still does seem like a solid 4-C feat, but I can see your point. But at the same time it is a cartoon and that the writers may not have actually known the consequences of destroying the Sun from the Earth.
Agnaa said:
But if we do ignore all of that, due to the distances involved, the feat would be 4-B+.
Click to expand...
This attempt was actually rejected.
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
Also, i already tried to upgrade Courage to 4-B based on this calculation, but the feat is too unrealistic to be something more than 4-C
Click to expand...
Propellus said:
This attempt was actually rejected.
Click to expand...
The reasoning given was that it wouldn't be omnidirectional, that it would be focused, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be. Screams propagate very differently from lasers. Noises are just objects vibrating, causing air to vibrate.

Given the echoes, the direction faced, and how screaming conventionally operates, it's unfeasible to say it was a focused beam into the sun.

@KLOL506 @DarkDragonMedeus
Propellus said:
I mean, shattering the sun still does seem like a solid 4-C feat, but I can see your point. But at the same time it is a cartoon and that the writers may not have actually known the consequences of destroying the Sun from the Earth.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was a lack of knowledge on the writers' part, I think they just weren't intending for it to actually be taken as Courage destroying the real-world sun. Rather, a much weaker fictional analogue with demonstrably different physics at play.

Hell, from that clip at least, it seems like the sky doesn't even go dark after it's destroyed.
 
I'm neutral about Courage's Tier 4 scaling but I am leaning towards being fine with labeling it as an outlier. I also stumbled across this calculation and wasn't sure if it was brought up here. But I will let calc group members such as Agnaa be the judge if there are flaws in the calculation or if it has similar issues to the 4-C stuff such as the gag cartoonish nature. And yeah, 8-A+ stuff not only would specifically be durability against pure heat based attacks. But it also assumes human size; which Courage is notable smaller + as Agnaa said; it's hard to calculate exact amount of blunt force trauma to withstand with GPE being really the best thing to go off of.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm neutral about Courage's Tier 4 scaling but I am leaning towards being fine with labeling it as an outlier. I also stumbled across this calculation and wasn't sure if it was brought up here. But I will let calc group members such as Agnaa be the judge if there are flaws in the calculation or if it has similar issues to the 4-C stuff such as the gag cartoonish nature. And yeah, 8-A+ stuff not only would specifically be durability against pure heat based attacks. But it also assumes human size; which Courage is notable smaller + as Agnaa said; it's hard to calculate exact amount of blunt force trauma to withstand with GPE being really the best thing to go off of.
Click to expand...
Yeah that one seems fine on its own, only issue really seems to be any outlier-ness.
 
I still don't think the Sun-shattering feat should be anything above 4-C, regardless of where the outlier discussion goes.
 
Agnaa said:
I don't have time to look at them right now, but I can discuss this other stuff with barely any research.

I'll get to it later today.
Click to expand...
I ended up getting busy, and have work today, so I probably won't be able to contribute more until tomorrow.

But from a quick glance I thought the regen stuff looked dodgy, so you may wanna hold off on applying that, at least.
 
Yeah that scan does absolutely not justify Low-Godly. It's just him exploding.

Can anyone explain why they accepted that? @Qawsedf234 @Propellus
 
Agnaa said:
Yeah that scan does absolutely not justify Low-Godly. It's just him exploding.
Click to expand...
It shows that every part of his body has been completely erased, even the "smoke" created by the explosion.

Anyway, i agree that this doesn´t justifies a definitive rating, so i put it as "possible"
 
Not erased, it shows that it's not visible. That wouldn't go above Mid-High.
 
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