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Saikou_The_Lewd_King

The King of all Things Lewd
VS Battles
Retired
15,407
5,717
tl;dr nothing in life matters anymore and I do what I want.

So we currently have a Cookie Clicker profile. I won't call it ass but it is... lacking. It never goes into detail, it's missing lots of abilities, its tier only takes the absolute highest end instead of each specific weapon/technology, and its current reasoning mixes several different things at once, with each of these being different tiers in actuality.

So I made a new one! Complete with 29 different tiers, tons of tabbers and abilities, and other fun things. Now I won't explain here literally everything I added and changed because this is an ungodly amount of things. However, I will explain the big tiershit involved here, as well as the cosmology, since I believe that will be the most important and controversial part.

So yeah tiershit time.

The Basic Uni/Multiverse

So not a lot here. This upgrade states the universe is spatially infinite and showcases it to be the case with the Bakery straight-up building infinite restaurants along the infinite universe. We also know that time is infinite and can be divided infinitely as well. So individual universes are High 3-A spatially and Low 2-C with time as well.

There are many parallel dimensions alongside the main universe, shown by the portal upgrade. Note that these dimensions are explicitly different from the "Idleverses" shown later and are indeed part of Idleverses. The game itself isn't clear if the term "Cookieverse" refers to the local multiverse or just one specific alternate dimension, but I'll use it to refer to the local multiverse from now on (mostly due to Nested, which I'll talk about later). The number of dimensions inside the Cookieverse isn't clear. One statement implies there are only around 50, but that is contradicted in some ways. Such as how Sugar Lumps allow an arbitrarily high number of dimensions to be enslaved through Portals, including way higher than 50. Similarly, "Nested" has arguments for there being an infinite amount of universes (shown later). So the number of alternate dimensions in the Cookieverse is either above 50 or infinite. It doesn't really matter for our current tiers though.

So the basic Multiverse is made out of 50, possibly up to infinite universes. Each universe is infinite spatially and temporally.

Infraverses and Superverses

On top of the above, there are universes in each particle of the universe. There are not one, but two separate hierarchies of this, which somehow stack with each other. As the universe is supposedly the same as the main one, and due the general concept of fractals (and of other Fractal Engines upgrades in the game), this likely goes infinitely down. So you have infinite universes embedded as part of a finite portion of another universe. Therefore, each universe jump is infinitely greater than the other, and thus viable for higher tiers. Those lower universes would range from 11-A to 11-C. However, the truly important part is that universes might exist above the baseline one.

For one, we have the Infraverses and Superverses upgrade, which deals with "universes within universes" and which names "Superverses" separately from "Infraverses", implying that universes superior to the main one exist. But the more important part is the Nested game. One of the Fractal Engine upgrades directly links to the website of Nested, a game made by the creator of Cookie Clicker, hosted on the same website as Cookie Clicker and which makes explicit references to it. As well, it obviously parallels the established CC cosmology, via having universes inside of each particle. So I'll be using its content as proof of the Cookie Cosmology.

In Nested, each particle contains a 'qwubble'. Each qwubble contains a set of 1 to 4 "-verse" structures. These vary in names, but they can include "Cookieverse", a structure we already established as being part of the Cookie Clicker cosmology. Each "-verse" structure contains a set of universes. This set is shown to be only a couple at first, but accessing Black Holes reveals other parallel universes from the initial set. This can be done infinitely, indicating that each "-verse" has infinite universes within it. And of course, accessing particles within this nested universe reveals another 'qwubble', and another set of "-verse". As both of these endless loops can be repeated endlessly in gameplay and are randomly generated each time you open the game, these are likely infinite in all directions. And as the "Cookieverse" can be found at any depth, this indicates that the verse has an infinite 11-C and High 1-B cosmology.

Idleverses

Idleverses are a set of parallel realities. As this upgrade reveals to us all at once, all of those realities are spaces existing in parallel with each other and are focused entirely on producing one object. Essentially, they're all Idle Games. Each Idleverse is not a single universe too, but rather a collection of all related realities (such as the Cookieverse). And all of them exist in "Milk", which surrounds all realities. It is known that there is an infinite amount of them.

But more importantly, I also believe that Idleverses contains all Superverses mentioned above. We already know that Idleverses contains sub-dimensions like the Cookieverse alongside the main universe. But this likely applies to Superverses. This description of Idleverses describes them as being "Layers upon layers" filled with small holes. This likely implies that Idleverses are layered and thus that Superverses are part of them. But on a more general level, the opposite makes no sense. Like I showcased above, the general description of the cosmology of the verse makes no mention of Superverses as being a major part of the world beyond the subordinate dimensions. And them being Idleverses inside other Idleverses doesn't really make sense either, as Idleverses are described as being parallel to each other and thus wouldn't be naturally found nested in each other. Given all this, I think Idleverses containing the Superverses Nested Cosmology above is the option that makes the most sense.

With that in mind, we know that Idleverses are realities which hold and thus are bigger than High 1-B structures. And by the big cosmos statement I linked above, the definition of "reality" can change depending on each Idleverse. Meaning that the internal content of an Idleverse is of no relevance to the structure itself. Combined with their status as essentially being the very Game a reality exists in, they should be Low 1-A.

The Real World

Yes, the Real World exists as part of the Cookie Clicker lore. We know the CC world works on "transcendental programming", and the Bakery can control the very code of the game the world is in. And if there is any doubt about whether the Real World exists as a physical place or not, a late-game upgrade straight up has the Bakery invade the Real World and loot it. So like, yeah. The Real World sees all infinite Idleverses as fiction and thus should be 1-A.

Now there is the "Break the Fifth Wall" upgrade. It involves the Bakery breaking the "fifth wall" and looting the world behind it. Given the context above, I interpreted it as another real-er world above the Real World wich the Bakery has now access to, especially since this upgrade is one of the last one obtained. It's debatable if it should be applied or not but eh, I decided to include it. It doesn't matter too much.

Heaven

And finally, Heaven. The place is accessed after an Ascension. It is heavily implied to be a transcendental place. Cookies sent to Heaven are described to be "on a higher plane of being", the upgrades associated with it are described as transcendent, it is implied to be the place where space-time is meaningless, and cookies from there are stated to have a flavor which transcends space-time. And this is all further proven by how it works in gameplay. Ascending completely resets all progress in the entire game, including literally everything I've mentioned above. Yet Heaven itself is unaffected, being a constant across all canon events of the game.

As such, all events involving Heaven should be 1-A. Including Ascension and stuff, although the Bakery lacks direct control over Heaven, unlike other things.

Other stuff

So everything above explained what I already have on the Sandbox. But there are some more doubtful or last-minute stuff I wanna discuss here.

So basically I think Idleverses should be straight up 1-A. The Game Design upgrades implies the JavaScript code is inherently part of an Idleverse instead of being sorta separate from it. And in general this makes sense, as the Idleverses technologies are considered better than the JavaScripts. So it likely implies that the Code of each game is limited to an Idleverse instead of being across all of reality. With this, the Idleverse would fit the notion of being a background transcendental force to a High 1-B Hierarchy, entirely defining and transcending it. As such, an Idleverse would be 1-A, and so would Milk. The Real World, Fifth Wall World, and Heaven would simply be higher levels of 1-A.

The other, much spicier thing is Heaven's case for being High 1-A. Right now it simply vaguely transcends the real world and everything else. But it could be argued to be entirely beyond the verse, including any potential extension of it, similarly to how an Idleverse would transcend the Superverse hierarchy. My argument about this relies mostly on the Cortex Bakers.

It is established that Cortex Bakers can manifest their thoughts into existence. And this ability is described as potent enough to completely ignore space and time and make reality arbitrary. And as the Cortex Bakers are the last building obtained, their scope should be beyond the basic abilities of all previous buildings (such as the JavaScript Console and Idleverses). But more importantly, the second-to-last upgrade in the entire game (so far) involves the Cortex Bakers collectively having permutated through every single thought possible. These beings capable of rendering reality irrelevant though their thoughts have conceptualized every single idea that can be thought of. As this is literally the second-to-last upgrade, this should include everything the Bakery can do (sans Heaven stuff).

Despite all of this, Heaven is still beyond them. As I've proven before, Heaven is beyond anything the Bakery does and transcends all of reality. The Cortex Bakers and all they've done can be entirely reset by a single Ascension. As a result, it is fair to say that Heaven is beyond the reality-warping potential of beings who have processed every thinkable thought ever, in a verse already having 1-A layers. And so, Heaven should probably be assumed to be beyond any extensions of 1-A. And thus be High 1-A.

It is a rather vague and whacky interpretation, but I think a "possibly High 1-A" could work, at the very least.

Conclusion

The Bakery gets entirely reworked almost from scratch, as well as updated to 1-A for the highest ends of technology.

I additionally have two potential upgrades for slightly higher 1-A and High 1-A for Heaven, as well.

Cookies.
 
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I have no idea what to say. But uh, yeah I can agree on a lot of this stuff. The main thing I am iffy about is High 1-A, but I'll leave that to the experts.
 
There being infinite Infraverses and Supraverse layers seems fine to me, based on the stuff from Nested. What I don't understand is why that'd make the Idleverses into Low 1-A structures, since it sounds to me like they aren't really something that dwarfs the hierarchies of universes-within-universes, so much as the hierarchies themselves. As far as I can tell they'd be just High 1-B. I suppose that "Milk" could be Low 1-A, but its description is likewise so vague I'm not exactly confident in that, either.

I'm fine with the Real World, the Fifth Wall World and Heaven being 1-A. The argument for High 1-A is pretty weak, on the whole, and I believe it'd be far more easily argued if you pointed out that one of the upgrades to Fractal Engines is literally called the "Set of all Sets." With the fact that they're found under that category to begin with being an obvious reference to how a Set of all Sets would paradoxically be a member of itself. If the Cortex Bakers have permuted through every idea conceivable and see reality as no different from their dreams to the extent that, to them, everything is permitted, then it can be argued that they'd be able to instantiate such a set as well.

Granted, even under the above point, I'm not sure how that'd mean Heaven is above the Set of all Sets, necessarily. The Cortex Bakers get reset by Ascension, sure, but it's not like they are physically Tier 1 (Their powers are largely Subjective Reality-based hax), so it wouldn't mean much anyway.
 
smh I'm being denied funny High 1-A. But fair, I suppose.



Low 1-A is mostly based on Idleverses being essentially the fabric of the game itself, and on the statement saying that each Idleverse's concept of reality can be different, implying that the Idleverse controls and defines the very existence of such cosmological structures like the Superverses. If the internal cosmology of an Idleverse can be entirely changed without any effect on it, it seems to imply that the structure itself is beyond and unaffected by the hierarchy. Although admittedly that was partially due to Deonment's insistence, so I'll have to wait for his take a little.

Also the idea is that Heaven should be able to reset any alteration of reality the Cortex Bakers might have done. If they have ever used their power to anywhere near their full potential, then Heaven undid that. And thus it is beyond their maximum power. And also the general idea that Heaven was never conquered or permanently affected by anything the Bakery did (outside of Ascension events). And I really, really, really think that the Bakery would have absolutely raided Heaven on their own term if this was possible for them. And on top of that, Heaven is capable of granting direct, permanent and acausal upgrades to all buildings, including Cortex Bakers. The "Unshackled" upgrades increase the potency of all Cortex Bakers upgrades across all future iterations of reality, including the "All possible ideas" upgrades, again implying Heaven is beyond their maximum scope and can increase it at a whim.
 
smh I'm being denied funny High 1-A. But fair, I suppose.
I mean, I'd be fine a "possibly far higher" or even a "possibly High 1-A" or whatever based on a combination of the "All possible ideas" + "Set of all Sets" + "Nothing is real, everything is permitted." I'd restrict it to a possibly, though, if we want to vouch for conservativeness.

Low 1-A is mostly based on Idleverses being essentially the fabric of the game itself, and on the statement saying that each Idleverse's concept of reality can be different, implying that the Idleverse controls and defines the very existence of such cosmological structures like the Superverses. If the internal cosmology of an Idleverse can be entirely changed without any effect on it, it seems to imply that the structure itself is beyond and unaffected by the hierarchy
This just tells me the Idleverses encompass the layers, though, and when it comes to infinitely-sized things, encompassing isn't exactly the same as being larger. So, High 1-B seems to be the most appropriate.

If they have ever used their power to anywhere near their full potential, then Heaven undid that. And thus it is beyond their maximum power.
They never did that, though. All the Bakery has them do is dream cookies for eternity, explicitly against whatever they want to do, at that. I suppose the rest is fine, though, yeah, especially since, if I recall correctly, the "Nothing is real, everything is permitted" is a Heavenly Upgrade to begin with.
 
Ah yes, my favorite, 1-A cookies
As someone who prodded aided with this in the background, I agree with most of it, only thing I feel a bit cautious abt is the high 1-A Heaven until I see more arguments for it, and the 1-A Idleverses, since though what saik said has some merit, however by itself it would be a bit weak, however within the same desc there is this small tidbit that really makes what saik proposes there not likely, and ignoring other stuff I could bring up as well that makes it weaker
But they also seem to be governed by much more subtle rules, the logic of which, when harnessed, may give you unparalleled dominion over the multiverse. Rewrite the rules! A game designer is you!"
This not only states that these rules that define reality extend over the multiverse as a whole, but with the "A game designer is you!" very much references the javascript consoles and that entire mess that comes with it.
 
For one, we have the Infraverses and Superverses upgrade, which deals with "universes within universes" and which names "Superverses" separately from "Infraverses", implying that universes superior to the main one exist. But the more important part is the Nested game. One of the Fractal Engine upgrades directly links to the website of Nested, a game made by the creator of Cookie Clicker, hosted on the same website as Cookie Clicker and which makes explicit references to it. As well, it obviously parallels the established CC cosmology, via having universes inside of each particle. So I'll be using its content as proof of the Cookie Cosmology.

In Nested, each particle contains a 'qwubble'. Each qwubble contains a set of 1 to 4 "-verse" structures. These vary in names, but they can include "Cookieverse", a structure we already established as being part of the Cookie Clicker cosmology. Each "-verse" structure contains a set of universes. This set is shown to be only a couple at first, but accessing Black Holes reveals other parallel universes from the initial set. This can be done infinitely, indicating that each "-verse" has infinite universes within it. And of course, accessing particles within this nested universe reveals another 'qwubble', and another set of "-verse". As both of these endless loops can be repeated endlessly in gameplay and are randomly generated each time you open the game, these are likely infinite in all directions. And as the "Cookieverse" can be found at any depth, this indicates that the verse has an infinite 11-C and High 1-B cosmology.
From what I'm gathering, the primary basis of everything high 1-B and beyond is based on Nested having an infinitely recursive cosmology and aspects of the CC verse transcending that structure. I have a few problems with that assertion.

Starting with the upgrade description itself, there's a problem with assuming Nested is a part of the verse in the way you think it is. It directly confirms that, within the confines of Cookie Clicker, Nested is just a game being promoted. Even if we assume that this is just an instance of R > F difference, with the Cookieverse merely viewing Nested's cosmology as fiction, this would contradict your claim of Nested containing the Cookieverse. This would lead to the Cookieverse, effectively transcending itself in a paradox, where it is both superior and inferior to itself simultaneously. But all of that requires us to assume a single statement intended to advertise the developer's other projects is actually canon and not just a foruth wall breaking joke, the evidence of which is very weak imo.

A game being hosted on the same website as another does not mean they are canon to each other. It's just easier to organize for most independent creators, with Orteil's other projects with no connections to CC being hosted on the same site. In the same vein as that argument, having a cosmology that uses similar concepts does not mean those cosmologies are connected. It is entirely possible for a creator to reuse ideas they find interesting, without them being a part of some overarching multiverse where everything is canon.

Now, if there are ways to reach high 1-B and higher without Nested, go for it, I don't really care. And honestly, if Nested is in fact valid to use, then the basis of high 1-B and up is fine, because the justifications themselves are good. But there needs to be more definitive proof of Nested being canon beyond a few tongue in cheek references.
 
@Deon

I wouldn't take that statement so literally. Having better control over individual universes (Idleverses) can give you more control over the Multiverse, just not direct control. Besides, if we take Idleverses = the entirety of a game, then "Game Design" shouldn't logically affect other games. Designing a game doesn't let you affect other games more easily. It just lets you control more subtle variables than the brute-force Java code.

Also acknowledge the Low 1-A you wanted for the Idleverses you hack.

@Ultima

Well I also gotta convince everyone of that too you know. Seems to be either "Possibly High 1-A" or "Likely Higher" for now.

@Fuji

The Fractal Engines-related tooltips have a tendency for fourth-wall breaks. This being one isn't a stretch at all. There are no real reasons to assume this is merely an in-universe video game, especially since it includes rather explicit bits of lore that are proven legitimate in the same row of upgrades. And even more especially because this is still factually an in-universe upgrade that actively increases cookie productions. It's not just a random thing with no presence in-universe.

And honestly, if none of that were true you could probably still argue it to be depicting an accurate version of the Cookie Clicker universe, simply portrayed with an in-universe game, given how it showcases a lot of points shown in actual science and Nested mainly reinforces ideas we already vaguely knew to be true (the existence of higher universes was heavily implied in other upgrades, the layers being infinite is also something you can easily extrapolate from the nature of Fractal Engines, infinite parallel dimensions can be proven with the Sugar Lumps upgrades, etc.)
 
Upgrade is all fine and dandy. I agree with Ultima on Idleverses being High 1-B.

And I'd rather just rate Heaven as "likely far higher", since it all seems very vague.

All else is fine.
 
@Fuji

The Fractal Engines-related tooltips have a tendency for fourth-wall breaks. This being one isn't a stretch at all. There are no real reasons to assume this is merely an in-universe video game, especially since it includes rather explicit bits of lore that are proven legitimate in the same row of upgrades. And even more especially because this is still factually an in-universe upgrade that actively increases cookie productions. It's not just a random thing with no presence in-universe.
I never said it wasn't a fourth wall break. In fact, I will gladly admit it is one. That doesn't make it canon, though. The point about it possibly being a video game in-universe was simply to demonstrate that even if it weren't a 4th wall break, it would present a contradiction in the cosmology, making it unusable.

Also, it increasing cookie production seems odd as well. Nothing about the upgrade itself, regardless of whose interpretation we go with, would somehow lead to more cookies. A lot of CC upgrades are things that are totally disconnected from making cookies, stuff like cosmic radiation or E-mails, so I think cookie production is something that shouldn't really be taken into consideration here.

And honestly, if none of that were true you could probably still argue it to be depicting an accurate version of the Cookie Clicker universe, simply portrayed with an in-universe game, given how it showcases a lot of points shown in actual science and Nested mainly reinforces ideas we already vaguely knew to be true (the existence of higher universes was heavily implied in other upgrades, the layers being infinite is also something you can easily extrapolate from the nature of Fractal Engines, infinite parallel dimensions can be proven with the Sugar Lumps upgrades, etc.)
This... also doesn't mean it's canon, though? Yes, CC and Nested use similar cosmological concepts, but we don't merge canons based on that alone. You also can't say that Nested is canon because it shares cosmological components with CC, when a major part of the reason CC has those in the first place is because Nested is supposedly canon.

Nothing you've said here really proves that Nested and CC are canon to each other. We don't just assume things are canon to each other because they're made by the same guy and use similar concepts at times. If we did, a lot more things on this site would be considered canon to one another. As an example, we do not treat Touhou and Seihou (or even PC-98 Touhou and Windows Touhou) as part of the same canon despite having the same guy working on them and sharing major elements such as parts of the cosmology or even major characters. I don't know why Cookie Clicker should be treated as an exception, unless there's more evidence of Nested's canonicity (which I haven't seen).
 
Peak fiction here High 1-A cookies.

This is all a bit above my head but the meme potential alone drew me to this CRT but the cosmology unironically is well explained and defined with the different layers/verses plus I appreciate how all the relevant content has clear citations too.
I mean, I'd be fine a "possibly far higher" or even a "possibly High 1-A" or whatever based on a combination of the "All possible ideas" + "Set of all Sets" + "Nothing is real, everything is permitted." I'd restrict it to a possibly, though, if we want to vouch for conservativeness.


This just tells me the Idleverses encompass the layers, though, and when it comes to infinitely-sized things, encompassing isn't exactly the same as being larger. So, High 1-B seems to be the most appropriate.
^This analysis makes the most sense to me, so throw me to the cookies.

Btw this game seemly loves it's R>F interactions.

So the only major issue, is the canon?
 
If we can scale a mention of some set to a type IV multiverse as something that is contained within it, I think we should also be able to scale an R-F interaction above the same thing.

I’m pro solid High 1-A because of the “set of all sets” statement, 1-A is a lowball.
 
@Fuji

I'm not sure I get your point here. There is no contradiction here. This upgrade simply links to another game that considers itself canon to CC by having the Cookieverse inside its cosmology. There is absolutely no reason to not consider it canon. Like just straight up no reason. Assuming things owned by the same copyright holders that reference each other are canon to each other is just a basic, normal assumption.

Touhou is such a false equivalence here and you know it. PC-98 has tons of issues, such as having practically nothing to do with the newer setting and being pretty much stated to be something to be ignored in favor of new material. If those issues didn't exist there wouldn't be any issue with having PC-98 be canon with modern Touhou. Those issues do not exist here. Don't bring your complaints about other verses here.
 
@Fuji

I'm not sure I get your point here. There is no contradiction here. This upgrade simply links to another game that considers itself canon to CC by having the Cookieverse inside its cosmology. There is absolutely no reason to not consider it canon. Like just straight up no reason. Assuming things owned by the same copyright holders that reference each other are canon to each other is just a basic, normal assumption.
Literally no other verse gets composited like this because of one-off mentions of cosmological structures. Those that are merged usually have entire blogs dedicated to explaining why certain cosmologies are connected, so a cheeky advertisement and one-off reference are not suitable grounds for merging cosmologies. I don't think you understand that even taken at face value, the evidence presented here is about 1/10th of what's required to merge entire cosmologies, especially for ones tiered so highly.

It is your burden to prove that CC and Nested are canon to each other, not my burden to prove it isn't. As of now, we place heavy scrutiny on using the tertiary canon of a single piece of media, even if the main and tertiary canons are 1-to-1 replicas of each other with the tertiary canon adding one new thing. So adding significant new details to a cosmology using materials from a different game entirely should require way more than the evidence you have provided.

Touhou is such a false equivalence here and you know it. PC-98 has tons of issues, such as having practically nothing to do with the newer setting and being pretty much stated to be something to be ignored in favor of new material. If those issues didn't exist there wouldn't be any issue with having PC-98 be canon with modern Touhou. Those issues do not exist here. Don't bring your complaints about other verses here.
It wasn't a complaint. Just an example of how we do not apply your logic to other verses. I didn't come here to debate Touhou with you, and I would prefer to never do that again if I have the option.
reminds me that i need to work on that canoniciy thread, though
 
I disagree with the entire link to the Nested hierarchy. See nothing to suggest it's more than a reference on both sides. That's not enough to assert canon IMO. Especially if the reason it's suggested is such a massive upgrade.
In fact, Nested seems to lack fundamental cosmic cornerstones for Idleverses such as a drive towards obsessively producing one particular resource and being bathed in the cosmic substance known as "milk".

Additionally, Nested starts with the regular world and goes ever lower, not ever higher. Since it has no plot to suggest any particular reality is basic human world, it appears more like Nested has a lower hierarchy (so low levels of 11-C). Evidence for a higher one is questionable.

Edit: Also think the real world stuff is questionable, as no hierarchial difference is indicated. (Honestly, most of this is pretty questionable)
 
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Our crossover rules really aren't as strict as you make them out to be, Fuji. Look at our Crossover page. If the Crossover is mutual (which it is here, as the Cookieverse straight up appears in Nested and Cookie Clicker links to Nested directly) and there is no huge contradiction in this interaction (which there isn't here), then it's enough for our purpose. I do not have to prove more than this, especially if we're only using Nested as elaborations on facts we already know to be true.

If other franchises don't get this same treatment, well first of all it's frankly not my problem, and secondly, there is a 99% chance that these specific situations have other factors which make the scaling not acceptable. Either they're not written by the same person, the crossover is one-sided, the stats are too far apart and contradictory, there are statements going against it, etc. None of that applies here, so this is essentially whataboutism. And as it stands, what I'm proposing falls in line with our Crossover page as written.

@DT

The line between "just a reference" and "actually canon to each other" is very thin and highly subjective. And I do not think that brushing off an exploration of an already existing hierarchy and system in the verse as a totally meaningless reference for the funnies is wise.

Milk doesn't have to be involved in Nested at all, since it bathes all Idleverses. Nested simply covers the inside of one. Besides Nested is a simplification of the universe anyway, skipping some aspects and only having a small number of things to explore compared to what would actually exist. This isn't a real argument. And "eventually converging to the production of one type of item" doesn't... have to be showcased here either? It's been quite established that the Cookie obsession only developed through the Bakery's efforts. The world before that was relatively normal. It doesn't have to be particularly visible here (especially, as I've said before, Nested makes simplifications to the world anyho).

Also, the fact that it only goes down doesn't really matter. The point is that the Cookieverse (which should be parallel to the main Cookie Clicker universe) can be found at any depth of this game, meaning that its position in the hierarchy is absolutely not on top and is rather arbitrary. There is no reason to assume the layer you start at (which changes each time you play the game, so it's probably not one very important or specific layer) is the only truly real layer or anything.
 
Our crossover rules really aren't as strict as you make them out to be, Fuji. Look at our Crossover page. If the Crossover is mutual (which it is here, as the Cookieverse straight up appears in Nested and Cookie Clicker links to Nested directly) and there is no huge contradiction in this interaction (which there isn't here), then it's enough for our purpose. I do not have to prove more than this, especially if we're only using Nested as elaborations on facts we already know to be true.
This is overlooking another part of the crossover rules, where the statements need to be intended seriously. While this is a very subjective point in most circumstances, I do think it's quite clear that a dev plugging another one of their games in a single upgrade description would not qualify as serious.
 
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tl;dr nothing in life matters anymore and I do what I want.

So we currently have a Cookie Clicker profile. I won't call it ass but it is... lacking. It never goes into detail, it's missing lots of abilities, its tier only takes the absolute highest end instead of each specific weapon/technology, and its current reasoning mixes several different things at once, with each of these being different tiers in actuality.

So I made a new one! Complete with 29 different tiers, tons of tabbers and abilities, and other fun things. Now I won't explain here literally everything I added and changed because this is an ungodly amount of things. However, I will explain the big tiershit involved here, as well as the cosmology, since I believe that will be the most important and controversial part.

So yeah tiershit time.

The Basic Uni/Multiverse

So not a lot here. This upgrade states the universe is spatially infinite and showcases it to be the case with the Bakery straight-up building infinite restaurants along the infinite universe. We also know that time is infinite and can be divided infinitely as well. So individual universes are High 3-A spatially and Low 2-C with time as well.

There are many parallel dimensions alongside the main universe, shown by the portal upgrade. Note that these dimensions are explicitly different from the "Idleverses" shown later and are indeed part of Idleverses. The game itself isn't clear if the term "Cookieverse" refers to the local multiverse or just one specific alternate dimension, but I'll use it to refer to the local multiverse from now on (mostly due to Nested, which I'll talk about later). The number of dimensions inside the Cookieverse isn't clear. One statement implies there are only around 50, but that is contradicted in some ways. Such as how Sugar Lumps allow an arbitrarily high number of dimensions to be enslaved through Portals, including way higher than 50. Similarly, "Nested" has arguments for there being an infinite amount of universes (shown later). So the number of alternate dimensions in the Cookieverse is either above 50 or infinite. It doesn't really matter for our current tiers though.

So the basic Multiverse is made out of 50, possibly up to infinite universes. Each universe is infinite spatially and temporally.

Infraverses and Superverses

On top of the above, there are universes in each particle of the universe. There are not one, but two separate hierarchies of this, which somehow stack with each other. As the universe is supposedly the same as the main one, and due the general concept of fractals (and of other Fractal Engines upgrades in the game), this likely goes infinitely down. So you have infinite universes embedded as part of a finite portion of another universe. Therefore, each universe jump is infinitely greater than the other, and thus viable for higher tiers. Those lower universes would range from 11-A to 11-C. However, the truly important part is that universes might exist above the baseline one.

For one, we have the Infraverses and Superverses upgrade, which deals with "universes within universes" and which names "Superverses" separately from "Infraverses", implying that universes superior to the main one exist. But the more important part is the Nested game. One of the Fractal Engine upgrades directly links to the website of Nested, a game made by the creator of Cookie Clicker, hosted on the same website as Cookie Clicker and which makes explicit references to it. As well, it obviously parallels the established CC cosmology, via having universes inside of each particle. So I'll be using its content as proof of the Cookie Cosmology.

In Nested, each particle contains a 'qwubble'. Each qwubble contains a set of 1 to 4 "-verse" structures. These vary in names, but they can include "Cookieverse", a structure we already established as being part of the Cookie Clicker cosmology. Each "-verse" structure contains a set of universes. This set is shown to be only a couple at first, but accessing Black Holes reveals other parallel universes from the initial set. This can be done infinitely, indicating that each "-verse" has infinite universes within it. And of course, accessing particles within this nested universe reveals another 'qwubble', and another set of "-verse". As both of these endless loops can be repeated endlessly in gameplay and are randomly generated each time you open the game, these are likely infinite in all directions. And as the "Cookieverse" can be found at any depth, this indicates that the verse has an infinite 11-C and High 1-B cosmology.

Idleverses

Idleverses are a set of parallel realities. As this upgrade reveals to us all at once, all of those realities are spaces existing in parallel with each other and are focused entirely on producing one object. Essentially, they're all Idle Games. Each Idleverse is not a single universe too, but rather a collection of all related realities (such as the Cookieverse). And all of them exist in "Milk", which surrounds all realities. It is known that there is an infinite amount of them.

But more importantly, I also believe that Idleverses contains all Superverses mentioned above. We already know that Idleverses contains sub-dimensions like the Cookieverse alongside the main universe. But this likely applies to Superverses. This description of Idleverses describes them as being "Layers upon layers" filled with small holes. This likely implies that Idleverses are layered and thus that Superverses are part of them. But on a more general level, the opposite makes no sense. Like I showcased above, the general description of the cosmology of the verse makes no mention of Superverses as being a major part of the world beyond the subordinate dimensions. And them being Idleverses inside other Idleverses doesn't really make sense either, as Idleverses are described as being parallel to each other and thus wouldn't be naturally found nested in each other. Given all this, I think Idleverses containing the Superverses Nested Cosmology above is the option that makes the most sense.

With that in mind, we know that Idleverses are realities which hold and thus are bigger than High 1-B structures. And by the big cosmos statement I linked above, the definition of "reality" can change depending on each Idleverse. Meaning that the internal content of an Idleverse is of no relevance to the structure itself. Combined with their status as essentially being the very Game a reality exists in, they should be Low 1-A.

The Real World

Yes, the Real World exists as part of the Cookie Clicker lore. We know the CC world works on "transcendental programming", and the Bakery can control the very code of the game the world is in. And if there is any doubt about whether the Real World exists as a physical place or not, a late-game upgrade straight up has the Bakery invade the Real World and loot it. So like, yeah. The Real World sees all infinite Idleverses as fiction and thus should be 1-A.

Now there is the "Break the Fifth Wall" upgrade. It involves the Bakery breaking the "fifth wall" and looting the world behind it. Given the context above, I interpreted it as another real-er world above the Real World wich the Bakery has now access to, especially since this upgrade is one of the last one obtained. It's debatable if it should be applied or not but eh, I decided to include it. It doesn't matter too much.

Heaven

And finally, Heaven. The place is accessed after an Ascension. It is heavily implied to be a transcendental place. Cookies sent to Heaven are described to be "on a higher plane of being", the upgrades associated with it are described as transcendent, it is implied to be the place where space-time is meaningless, and cookies from there are stated to have a flavor which transcends space-time. And this is all further proven by how it works in gameplay. Ascending completely resets all progress in the entire game, including literally everything I've mentioned above. Yet Heaven itself is unaffected, being a constant across all canon events of the game.

As such, all events involving Heaven should be 1-A. Including Ascension and stuff, although the Bakery lacks direct control over Heaven, unlike other things.

Other stuff

So everything above explained what I already have on the Sandbox. But there are some more doubtful or last-minute stuff I wanna discuss here.

So basically I think Idleverses should be straight up 1-A. The Game Design upgrades implies the JavaScript code is inherently part of an Idleverse instead of being sorta separate from it. And in general this makes sense, as the Idleverses technologies are considered better than the JavaScripts. So it likely implies that the Code of each game is limited to an Idleverse instead of being across all of reality. With this, the Idleverse would fit the notion of being a background transcendental force to a High 1-B Hierarchy, entirely defining and transcending it. As such, an Idleverse would be 1-A, and so would Milk. The Real World, Fifth Wall World, and Heaven would simply be higher levels of 1-A.

The other, much spicier thing is Heaven's case for being High 1-A. Right now it simply vaguely transcends the real world and everything else. But it could be argued to be entirely beyond the verse, including any potential extension of it, similarly to how an Idleverse would transcend the Superverse hierarchy. My argument about this relies mostly on the Cortex Bakers.

It is established that Cortex Bakers can manifest their thoughts into existence. And this ability is described as potent enough to completely ignore space and time and make reality arbitrary. And as the Cortex Bakers are the last building obtained, their scope should be beyond the basic abilities of all previous buildings (such as the JavaScript Console and Idleverses). But more importantly, the second-to-last upgrade in the entire game (so far) involves the Cortex Bakers collectively having permutated through every single thought possible. These beings capable of rendering reality irrelevant though their thoughts have conceptualized every single idea that can be thought of. As this is literally the second-to-last upgrade, this should include everything the Bakery can do (sans Heaven stuff).

Despite all of this, Heaven is still beyond them. As I've proven before, Heaven is beyond anything the Bakery does and transcends all of reality. The Cortex Bakers and all they've done can be entirely reset by a single Ascension. As a result, it is fair to say that Heaven is beyond the reality-warping potential of beings who have processed every thinkable thought ever, in a verse already having 1-A layers. And so, Heaven should probably be assumed to be beyond any extensions of 1-A. And thus be High 1-A.

It is a rather vague and whacky interpretation, but I think a "possibly High 1-A" could work, at the very least.

Conclusion

The Bakery gets entirely reworked almost from scratch, as well as updated to 1-A for the highest ends of technology.

I additionally have two potential upgrades for slightly higher 1-A and High 1-A for Heaven, as well.

Cookies.
wtf
🍪
 
@DT

The line between "just a reference" and "actually canon to each other" is very thin and highly subjective. And I do not think that brushing off an exploration of an already existing hierarchy and system in the verse as a totally meaningless reference for the funnies is wise.
Maybe it is thin, but the line is far from the point where we are. Verses of the same author that aren't the same canon making such references to each other isn't that uncommon.

Like, you don't even have the same character or historical event being alluded to in both or anything like that. The cookie clicker reference doesn't even say "this is a thing that physically exists in this universe". It's literally just a meta-comment with a link to the game. The same tooltip makes a comment on how you can't click the tooltip, showing how this isn't some greater in-universe inclusion but just the writers making a funny reference.

Heck, tha tooltip could equally validly be interpreted as Nested existing as just a video game in the Cookie Clicker world.

It has roughly as much evidence as Marvel's Earth-616 has on being part of Cookie Clicker, given that that is also mentioned.

And Nested's reference is literally just "it mentions something with cookies".

Milk doesn't have to be involved in Nested at all, since it bathes all Idleverses. Nested simply covers the inside of one.
Well, the cookieverse in Cookie Clicker evidently has milk, though, so I don't think that milk only exists outside the Idleverses.

Besides Nested is a simplification of the universe anyway, skipping some aspects and only having a small number of things to explore compared to what would actually exist.
And yet you want to base an infinite hierarchy of transcendence on that simplification.

And "eventually converging to the production of one type of item" doesn't... have to be showcased here either? It's been quite established that the Cookie obsession only developed through the Bakery's efforts. The world before that was relatively normal. It doesn't have to be particularly visible here (especially, as I've said before, Nested makes simplifications to the world anyho).
So you assume this is a pre-obsession world to make it consistent?

Also, the fact that it only goes down doesn't really matter. The point is that the Cookieverse (which should be parallel to the main Cookie Clicker universe) can be found at any depth of this game, meaning that its position in the hierarchy is absolutely not on top and is rather arbitrary. There is no reason to assume the layer you start at (which changes each time you play the game, so it's probably not one very important or specific layer) is the only truly real layer or anything.
Since Cookieverses exist at every layer, not all of them are equal for obvious reasons. You can't just equate one Cookieverse to any other Cookieverse as you please. It's like trying to say that a universe and a universe that exists inside that universe's electron are equatable.

If you want to equate the Cookie Clicker universe to one in some particular layer of Nested you have to show evidence as for which particular layer it exists at. For all we know the entirety of Nested might play in a realm smaller than an atom within the main Cookie Clicker universe. Not in a realm infinite layers down as you wish to assume.
 
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Nested's reference is directly to Cookie Clicker, the creator directly confirmed that.
Not sure where they confirmed that, but that it is a Cookie Clicker reference was never really point of debate. The problem is it's still just a vague reference, not a canonical fusion of cosmologies.
 
It has come to my attention that this reddit post does not exist anymore outside of my screenshot so that makes it awkward.

I still think Orteil's input is valid enough though because it's not like he retracted the statement or anything.
 
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