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Conceptual manipulation for Dragon ball heroes

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Irineu

Irineu

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According to current wiki rules, it is not necessary to use the word "concept" or "idea" to get Conceptual Manipulation. creating something out of non-existence would also qualify, since that something does not yet exist in reality.

Argument 1

•Mechikabura absorbed the entirety of time and merged with it. So much so that he restructured his body because of time.


•Pan claims that there is nothing but empty darkness (which is non-existence), and that the world no longer exists, since history was sealed with the mechikabura.
https://imgur.com/a/n7VXDdo

•Toki toki recreated time from where they were, which as we know, is non-existence.
https://imgur.com/a/A3r66rv

•We might even consider this place a crack of time, as the crack of time is outside of creation and contains the non-existent story.

https://imgur.com/a/DMaFa7t

Well, we can see that toki toki is capable of creating the time of non-existence, but if this argument is not accepted, there is still another.
Argument 2

Argument 2 Toki Toki is the entity that creates and controls time in Dragon Ball Heroes. The supposed argument that refutes the creation of the concept of time by toki toki, is that time precedes it, as it is said in ultimate mission x. In fact, toki toki just makes a body switch, as for example happens with Orochimaru from Naruto. Orochimaru remains the same being, even changing bodies, and that's what happens with toki toki. He only lays the egg when his body starts to get old, and as time needs Toki toki, he needs a new body. That is, there were no other toki toki, but other bodies that he used. Aeos also took care of toki toki, only in a body. It's not really a race, it's a single entity. You might be wondering how then dogi dogi exists. It's simple, toki toki's birth of 2 bodies was a special phenomenon never happened before, so it's not a race. And if toki toki ceases to exist, everything is literally destroyed.
Conclusion: toki toki created time out of non-existence, and time does not precede it. Characters who would climb: Toki toki, dogi dogi and possibly Tme Power users.
 
Last edited:
Irineu said:
According to current wiki rules, it is not necessary to use the word "concept" or "idea" to get Conceptual Manipulation. creating something out of non-existence would also qualify, since that something does not yet exist in reality.

Argument 1

•Mechikabura absorbed the entirety of time and merged with it. So much so that he restructured his body because of time.


•Pan claims that there is nothing but empty darkness (which is non-existence), and that the world no longer exists, since history was sealed with the mechikabura.
https://imgur.com/a/n7VXDdo

•Toki toki recreated time from where they were, which as we know, is non-existence.
https://imgur.com/a/A3r66rv

•We might even consider this place a crack of time, as the crack of time is outside of creation and contains the non-existent story.

https://imgur.com/a/DMaFa7t

Well, we can see that toki toki is capable of creating the time of non-existence, but if this argument is not accepted, there is still another.
Argument 2

Argument 2 Toki Toki is the entity that creates and controls time in Dragon Ball Heroes. The supposed argument that refutes the creation of the concept of time by toki toki, is that time precedes it, as it is said in ultimate mission x. In fact, toki toki just makes a body switch, as for example happens with Orochimaru from Naruto. Orochimaru remains the same being, even changing bodies, and that's what happens with toki toki. He only lays the egg when his body starts to get old, and as time needs Toki toki, he needs a new body. That is, there were no other toki toki, but other bodies that he used. Aeos also took care of toki toki, only in a body. It's not really a race, it's a single entity. You might be wondering how then dogi dogi exists. It's simple, toki toki's birth of 2 bodies was a special phenomenon never happened before, so it's not a race. And if toki toki ceases to exist, everything is literally destroyed.
Conclusion: toki toki created time out of non-existence, and time does not precede it. Characters who would climb: Toki toki, dogi dogi and possibly Tme Power users.
Click to expand...

I accept.
 
Toby020 said:
it's not very in-depth, Akira toriyama doesn't like complex things, he did the bare minimum to be understood, Dragon Ball Super showed that there are concepts in the work, such as justice and order, where it was as simple as possible, DB tends to be an easy verse, but not even Akira toriyama knows what he's doing
Click to expand...
Yeah the most powerful haxes tend to need very complex thinking and Brain power to create them.
 
Toby020 said:
it's not very in-depth, Akira toriyama doesn't like complex things, he did the bare minimum to be understood, Dragon Ball Super showed that there are concepts in the work, such as justice and order, where it was as simple as possible, DB tends to be an easy verse, but not even Akira toriyama knows what he's doing
Click to expand...
Not really, now Akira not actually doing the work anymore, he throw out general theme and then people/group like Toei, Toyotaro actualize the work, so they could very well includes thing Akira didn't think about. Also many abilities out there doesn't really being intentional by author/developer at all, however if it fit the stardard, it still being accepted
 
Everything12 said:
Time isn't a concept. And you have to proven to create the concept of something to gain Conceptual Manipulation or Creation on a concept level.
Click to expand...
there is time, and the concept of time, and as we know toki toki there is no difficulty in creating ordinary time, but this is a different feat, since in my scans and contextualization of events, I prove that he created time a from nonexistence, which according to the wiki, is a way to get Conceptual Manipulation. prior to making this review I created a question and answer thread on whether the wiki considers other methods to achieve Conceptual Manipulation, and one user stated that creating something from non-existence, as long as that something does not exist at all in existence, would fall under the Conceptual manipulation. so please tell me if the wiki has changed the ways to get conceptual manipulation, or explain what is wrong with my scans and contextualizations?by the way, there are some characters on the wiki with the same deeds and statements as toki toki, but for some reason Conceptual Manipulation is listed in their profile. there is a character from a chinese work that literally has the same description as toki toki, and has conceptual manipulation. toki toki is the one who rules the world, destroying him would result in the collapse of the world. besides being asserted that he determines the nature of time.


  • the world doesn't exist without toki toki
  • toki toki can create time in non-existence
  • toki toki can control the nature of time, which is synonymous with the concept
  • time does not precede toki toki
 
Vietthai96 said:
Actually, this pretty wrong, Tokitoki is Time, when Tokitoki is born, time born along with the Bird
Click to expand...
toki toki is the god of time and its greatest controller, but he is not time. he is an entity that creates it (time) and exists independently of it, as we can see in dark demon realm. time depends on toki toki, but he does not depend on time. even if he is time, he would be an independent abstraction of reality.
 
Irineu said:
I prove that he created time a from nonexistence, which according to the wiki, is a way to get Conceptual Manipulation.
Click to expand...
It's not.

Irineu said:
prior to making this review I created a question and answer thread on whether the wiki considers other methods to achieve Conceptual Manipulation, and one user stated that creating something from non-existence
Click to expand...
Just because a user says something does not mean they are correct.

Irineu said:
by the way, there are some characters on the wiki with the same deeds and statements as toki toki, but for some reason Conceptual Manipulation is listed in their profile. there is a character from a chinese work that literally has the same description as toki toki, and has conceptual manipulation.
Click to expand...
They likely aren't the same and their additional context or background details that mentions concepts.
 
I know that what I'm going to say doesn't have much to do with the topic, but is janemba (dbh) accepted as conceptual here on the wiki? On toki toki's conceptual manipulation, I'll stay neutral for now.
 
Irineu said:
there is time, and the concept of time, and as we know toki toki there is no difficulty in creating ordinary time, but this is a different feat, since in my scans and contextualization of events, I prove that he created time a from nonexistence, which according to the wiki, is a way to get Conceptual Manipulation. prior to making this review I created a question and answer thread on whether the wiki considers other methods to achieve Conceptual Manipulation, and one user stated that creating something from non-existence, as long as that something does not exist at all in existence, would fall under the Conceptual manipulation. so please tell me if the wiki has changed the ways to get conceptual manipulation, or explain what is wrong with my scans and contextualizations?by the way, there are some characters on the wiki with the same deeds and statements as toki toki, but for some reason Conceptual Manipulation is listed in their profile. there is a character from a chinese work that literally has the same description as toki toki, and has conceptual manipulation. toki toki is the one who rules the world, destroying him would result in the collapse of the world. besides being asserted that he determines the nature of time.


  • the world doesn't exist without toki toki
  • toki toki can create time in non-existence
  • toki toki can control the nature of time, which is synonymous with the concept
  • time does not precede toki toki
Click to expand...

Wouldn't regulating the order of time be some kind of manipulation of the law or something?
 
Gogeta said:
Wouldn't regulating the order of time be some kind of manipulation of the law or something?
Click to expand...
order is nothing more than the essence of something. changing something's essence should theoretically grant Conceptual Manipulation, as essence is the most important characteristic for its existence. when we are in the material world, that characteristic is the heart, but when entering the immaterial world, that something is the idea of existence, or concept.
 
Irineu said:
order is nothing more than the essence of something. changing something's essence should theoretically grant Conceptual Manipulation, as essence is the most important characteristic for its existence. when we are in the material world, that characteristic is the heart, but when entering the immaterial world, that something is the idea of existence, or concept.
Click to expand...
That's not how we treat that here.
 
Everything12 said:
It's not.
Just because a user says something does not mean they are correct.

They likely aren't the same and their additional context or background details that mentions concepts.
Click to expand...
OK. if we really don't treat it that way, then that's fine.

it's literally the same, at least from the information I saw on the page.
 
Irineu said:
it's literally the same, at least from the information I saw on the page.
Click to expand...
Then create a CRT about them. Chances are it's a case of the page not explaining it well and their is additional context.
 
Irineu said:
could you tell me why control order does not grant any hax's to wiki?
Click to expand...
What order means is entirely dependent on the series and how they explain it. So it does give hax, but only the hax the series prescribes it as we don't default to any specific meaning without said context.
 
Everything12 said:
What order means is entirely dependent on the series and how they explain it. So it does give hax, but only the hax the series prescribes it as we don't default to any specific meaning without said context.
Click to expand...
there is no further context in the chapter, so we will take into account the more common meaning of order, serious manipulation of laws.
 
Everything12 said:
Because it isn't given such an explanation in the series itself.
Click to expand...
dude, you're basically saying order is meaningless if history doesn't say order is authority. I agree that controlling order does not mean essence when history does not provide this explanation. however, order at all times will mean authority, and authority is getting people to obey your rules.
 
Yeah I don’t exactly see how that would qualify for concept hax. Tokitoki creating time is further elaborated that entire timelines are created/sustained from his birth. Unless they specifically mentioned the concept of time was made by Tokitoki then it would qualify, but given the context for what Tokitoki is it’s just him making entire realities with his birth/powers alone.
 
Everything12 said:
More or less.
Click to expand...
you can't just take the meaning out of a word. if he is said to control the order of time, then he simply controls the order of time. I agree that without additional context, it cannot stand for ideas or concepts, but it will always stand for authority.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Yeah I don’t exactly see how that would qualify for concept hax. Tokitoki creating time is further elaborated that entire timelines are created/sustained from his birth. Unless they specifically mentioned the concept of time was made by Tokitoki then it would qualify, but given the context for what Tokitoki is it’s just him making entire realities with his birth/powers alone.
Click to expand...
That's not my argument. I argued that he is able to create time in non-existence, which is supposed to grant Conceptual Manipulation, but according to everything12, we don't accept that kind of feat on the wiki.
 
@Irineu yeah because all tokitoki does is recreate entire timelines with his powers and sustains it, making time as a statement in of itself needs more elaboration as that can mean make entire realities/alternate timelines as opposed to literally creating the concept of time itself, but this isn't it.

Either way I'll close this thread.
 
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