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Clown Demon vs Mecha Angel (Pennywise vs Noah)
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
- Start date
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- #2
Two questions to start:
-What is Pennys technopathy range?
-What is Pennys Standard Tactic? I heard he likes to go for the spooky way...
-What is Pennys technopathy range?
-What is Pennys Standard Tactic? I heard he likes to go for the spooky way...
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Range? Its telepathy can span the entire town of Derry, and Bangor (Derry's real-life analogue) is almost 90 square kilometers.
It usually tries to make victims fearful, but that's only when dealing with things it's trying to feed on (fear "salts the meat", as it so eloquently puts it) and I highly doubt it's going to be trying to snack on a robot anytime soon. In fact, in a battle with something it can't eat, it's probably going to be less inclined to fool around or do any of its usual horror stuff.
It usually tries to make victims fearful, but that's only when dealing with things it's trying to feed on (fear "salts the meat", as it so eloquently puts it) and I highly doubt it's going to be trying to snack on a robot anytime soon. In fact, in a battle with something it can't eat, it's probably going to be less inclined to fool around or do any of its usual horror stuff.
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90 square kilometers coverage comes out to about 5 km range, without further information. Noah flies up at least 8km and to that comes the 4km starting range (and that Noah itself is 15km long, so its too big to be entirely within the range).
So range could be an issue for penny.
Anyways, Noah's starting move is to set up a concept space, fly high into the air and release its 300k soldier army.
So... even not fooling around Penny has 300k targets flying towards him to target before Noah itself. With no better knowledge I would think it priotizes taking care of the things immediately trying to kill it first.
Noah, like all automata, has concept sensors that allow it to read the "concept string vibration" of stuff. It essentially tells her which concepts something makes use of. Given that Owari no Chronicle also has a mind control and technopathy concept she will have no problem learning that Penny makes use of this before he even does. (And otherwise she can learn from her 300k pawns)
And she has appropiate counter measures. The concept of reflection can reflect its telepathy back and the concept of No Mutual Understanding negates it.
In general, the concept of No Mutual Understanding and the Only Truth Remains concept together negate the majority of Pennys abilities.
On the other hand Pennys avatar is not difficult to get rid of. Flame of Motion, Concept of Stillness, Infinite Strength, Reincarnation Concept etc. can all kill it.
Of course that wouldn't prevent the creation of new avatars, however new avatars will not spawn in the concept space, since one needs concept manip to enter those (and even then only from the very borders).
That means Noah has time and giving time to something with a 2-C concept creation mechanism isn't the best idea. The end solution is just that Noah will create a concept that prevents Pennys spawining and spread it throughout the universe. That should keep the avatars out indefinitely and hence win Noah the match.
So range could be an issue for penny.
Anyways, Noah's starting move is to set up a concept space, fly high into the air and release its 300k soldier army.
So... even not fooling around Penny has 300k targets flying towards him to target before Noah itself. With no better knowledge I would think it priotizes taking care of the things immediately trying to kill it first.
Noah, like all automata, has concept sensors that allow it to read the "concept string vibration" of stuff. It essentially tells her which concepts something makes use of. Given that Owari no Chronicle also has a mind control and technopathy concept she will have no problem learning that Penny makes use of this before he even does. (And otherwise she can learn from her 300k pawns)
And she has appropiate counter measures. The concept of reflection can reflect its telepathy back and the concept of No Mutual Understanding negates it.
In general, the concept of No Mutual Understanding and the Only Truth Remains concept together negate the majority of Pennys abilities.
On the other hand Pennys avatar is not difficult to get rid of. Flame of Motion, Concept of Stillness, Infinite Strength, Reincarnation Concept etc. can all kill it.
Of course that wouldn't prevent the creation of new avatars, however new avatars will not spawn in the concept space, since one needs concept manip to enter those (and even then only from the very borders).
That means Noah has time and giving time to something with a 2-C concept creation mechanism isn't the best idea. The end solution is just that Noah will create a concept that prevents Pennys spawining and spread it throughout the universe. That should keep the avatars out indefinitely and hence win Noah the match.
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Not so fast.
For starters, this is a map of Derry. It appears to be fanmade and only denotes locations that are mentioned by name (so all of the unnamed residential buildings and such are just missing from it), but it's built directly from information mentioned in the novels, so it should be usable.
Pennywise's lair in the sewer (a place from which it's memorywiped the town using its telepathy before) is underneath the Canal, which isn't even remotely dead-center at the middle of town. So 5km is likely a very low-end assumption. (I also don't see how "90km around" equates to "5km in every direction", but I won't go into that)
The OP doesn't mention Noah starting in the Leviathan form either (the profile says Noah's Leviathan form is the one that's 15km long), so "starting out of range" seems like an incorrect argument anyway. You're also ignoring the fact that something which is 15km in size can easily be seen from 4km away even in a place like Central Park. (reminding you that a typical NYC skyscraper isn't even 1km tall, and that Noah being even 1% as tall as it is long [looking at the Leviathan image, that seems proportionally impossible] would already make it half as tall as one of those skyscrapers) If it happens to just start this match in Leviathan form for no reason, there's nothing stopping Pennywise from just teleporting over before the machine does any of what you just said.
And by that point, "telepathically shutting the robot off before it can employ any of its countermeasures" is an option.
So one of two scenarios:
For starters, this is a map of Derry. It appears to be fanmade and only denotes locations that are mentioned by name (so all of the unnamed residential buildings and such are just missing from it), but it's built directly from information mentioned in the novels, so it should be usable.
Pennywise's lair in the sewer (a place from which it's memorywiped the town using its telepathy before) is underneath the Canal, which isn't even remotely dead-center at the middle of town. So 5km is likely a very low-end assumption. (I also don't see how "90km around" equates to "5km in every direction", but I won't go into that)
The OP doesn't mention Noah starting in the Leviathan form either (the profile says Noah's Leviathan form is the one that's 15km long), so "starting out of range" seems like an incorrect argument anyway. You're also ignoring the fact that something which is 15km in size can easily be seen from 4km away even in a place like Central Park. (reminding you that a typical NYC skyscraper isn't even 1km tall, and that Noah being even 1% as tall as it is long [looking at the Leviathan image, that seems proportionally impossible] would already make it half as tall as one of those skyscrapers) If it happens to just start this match in Leviathan form for no reason, there's nothing stopping Pennywise from just teleporting over before the machine does any of what you just said.
And by that point, "telepathically shutting the robot off before it can employ any of its countermeasures" is an option.
So one of two scenarios:
- It starts in Leviathan, in which case Penny sees a giant robot on the horizon, teleports over and shuts it down.
- It doesn't start in Leviathan, in which case Penny shuts it off from 4km before it can do anything.
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(I'm going to bed for now. If a response is left while I'm asleep, I'll get back to it when I'm awake again, assuming I have time.)
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Bump.
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5.35 km is the minimum range you need to have to cover 90 square meters of land. Hence 5 km.
If you want a better estimation figure out the actual range show between Penny and the effects of its technopathy in some instance.
Noah's Leviathan form and ship form are both 15km. It's interface isn't really a form, just an interface. Given I should probably change the wording on the profile to include the ship form.
If Penny can teleport the 4km it can do that. That will cost it one action though, meaning speed equal or not it will not get that done before Noah does the stuff I mentioned.
Speed Unequal Noah will basically finish its entire set up and attack done before Penny gets to teleport or do anything, due to being a whooping 94 times faster. Considering how much 300k strong army clouds the sky Penny might not even get to see Noah before it dies.
Speed Equal Noah gets Concept Space setup and observation, the thought based actions it can do in parallel, done in the same time penny teleports. Then it's him using technopathy vs Noah using concept, who can do it faster. (Unless the concept space is already set up with concepts activated, which is something Noah can do) Speed Equal pretty much a draw.
Now if it is an exact draw (both at the same time) Noah wins, because if the telepathy is negated after the fact then Penny can't have left any damage Noah doesn't instantly recover from. (High-speed Regenerationn + self-evolution and stuff)
If Penny is slightly faster he can win, but IMO that is the less likely case for a few reasons.
1. Noah doing anything close to the ground is gonna trigger massive earthquakes, due to its sheer size. When it began moving in the novel anyone close was thrown 5 km in the air and a 5km wide Earthquake was caused.
Penny is a down to earth guy. I can very well imagine that this distrats him a bit from doing the optimal actions it needs to do to win.
2. Penny isn't known to be an optimal fighter. Even if you say that it wouldn't be clowning around against a giant robot, that's a far cry from instantly taking optimal actions against an unknown opponent.
He may have no reason to draw it out, but he neither has one to hurry. He doesn't know that this thing is any threat to him, considering his avatar immortality he can probably assume basically nothing ever is, and that the thing will a moment later gain defenses against his abilities is nothing he knows either.
Since Noah actually gets info on her opponent and is a rational combat trained individual that she does the correct actions is vastly more likely than that teh clown does them.
So 7/10 for Noah.
If you want a better estimation figure out the actual range show between Penny and the effects of its technopathy in some instance.
Noah's Leviathan form and ship form are both 15km. It's interface isn't really a form, just an interface. Given I should probably change the wording on the profile to include the ship form.
If Penny can teleport the 4km it can do that. That will cost it one action though, meaning speed equal or not it will not get that done before Noah does the stuff I mentioned.
Speed Unequal Noah will basically finish its entire set up and attack done before Penny gets to teleport or do anything, due to being a whooping 94 times faster. Considering how much 300k strong army clouds the sky Penny might not even get to see Noah before it dies.
Speed Equal Noah gets Concept Space setup and observation, the thought based actions it can do in parallel, done in the same time penny teleports. Then it's him using technopathy vs Noah using concept, who can do it faster. (Unless the concept space is already set up with concepts activated, which is something Noah can do) Speed Equal pretty much a draw.
Now if it is an exact draw (both at the same time) Noah wins, because if the telepathy is negated after the fact then Penny can't have left any damage Noah doesn't instantly recover from. (High-speed Regenerationn + self-evolution and stuff)
If Penny is slightly faster he can win, but IMO that is the less likely case for a few reasons.
1. Noah doing anything close to the ground is gonna trigger massive earthquakes, due to its sheer size. When it began moving in the novel anyone close was thrown 5 km in the air and a 5km wide Earthquake was caused.
Penny is a down to earth guy. I can very well imagine that this distrats him a bit from doing the optimal actions it needs to do to win.
2. Penny isn't known to be an optimal fighter. Even if you say that it wouldn't be clowning around against a giant robot, that's a far cry from instantly taking optimal actions against an unknown opponent.
He may have no reason to draw it out, but he neither has one to hurry. He doesn't know that this thing is any threat to him, considering his avatar immortality he can probably assume basically nothing ever is, and that the thing will a moment later gain defenses against his abilities is nothing he knows either.
Since Noah actually gets info on her opponent and is a rational combat trained individual that she does the correct actions is vastly more likely than that teh clown does them.
So 7/10 for Noah.
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Bump
Can your reasonings be used as a vote for Noah
Can your reasonings be used as a vote for Noah
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I guess I can come back to this now that the dozen or so other Pennywise threads have halted for now.
In both speed scenarios, you have to prove that it can take off from the ground at the same speed that it can fly in order for it to do all of that. Spaceships don't just jump into the air at their travel speed, and unless there's an instance of it doing so, this machine should be no different. (Although I haven't really been arguing this as a speed unequalized match to begin with, for relatively obvious reasons.)
"High-speed Regenerationn" doesn't let Noah recover from just being shut off. That's like saying a human with Regenerationn can get back up right away after being put to sleep.
Even if Penny gets launched into the air, there's nothing stopping it from taking a form that can fly, which it has done in-canon many times. And it can still use its telepathy regardless of the form it's in, so guess what that means.
"Teleport over and shut off the robot" is quite literally the most obvious and logical move for something that has the power to control technology. You're saying that Pennywise will simply avoid taking the most obvious route to victory, which is unfounded. Especially since it doesn't have "I want to eat this, and it tastes better if I scare it a little" getting in the way of its judgment in this scenario.
So my point still stands. It can simply teleport across the distance and have the robot shut down with little issue before any of the above-mentioned stuff becomes a factor.
In both speed scenarios, you have to prove that it can take off from the ground at the same speed that it can fly in order for it to do all of that. Spaceships don't just jump into the air at their travel speed, and unless there's an instance of it doing so, this machine should be no different. (Although I haven't really been arguing this as a speed unequalized match to begin with, for relatively obvious reasons.)
"High-speed Regenerationn" doesn't let Noah recover from just being shut off. That's like saying a human with Regenerationn can get back up right away after being put to sleep.
Even if Penny gets launched into the air, there's nothing stopping it from taking a form that can fly, which it has done in-canon many times. And it can still use its telepathy regardless of the form it's in, so guess what that means.
"Teleport over and shut off the robot" is quite literally the most obvious and logical move for something that has the power to control technology. You're saying that Pennywise will simply avoid taking the most obvious route to victory, which is unfounded. Especially since it doesn't have "I want to eat this, and it tastes better if I scare it a little" getting in the way of its judgment in this scenario.
So my point still stands. It can simply teleport across the distance and have the robot shut down with little issue before any of the above-mentioned stuff becomes a factor.
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