Cloud vs. Meta Knight

[Smashtwig]

Seems like game mechanics to me. It's likely all tied to his Stamina. I've already said before that it would come to that Iit was a healing battle. But with Time stuff, and defense boosts, he can pull it off.

Also Finishing Touch exists, since Meta is a close range guy, that's very deadly to deal with, and something he cannot heal or regen from if hit by it.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Does he have a limit to how much he can use Materia or is that game mechanics.

The use of Materia does put a strain on the user's mind as it requires concentration to activate, as the user must connect with the knowledge stored in the Materia. The stronger the Materia, the higher this strain is, hence why there is a bigger MP cost in the gameplay. However, Cloud's mind became insanely strong by the end of the game, so it isn't much of a drawback anymore. This cost also doesn't apply to passive abilities.

 

[Eficiente]

Whatever AP Cloud is being said to have to for it to harm MK should be better specified, and in his profile.

 

[Smashtwig]

Are they not equal? The OP says they scale to the same feat

 

[Eficiente]

The first key scales to 15 or 16 times it due to Magolor, the second key is dozens, if not hundreds of times the stuff before due to Void Termina.

 

[Jinsye]

bump

 

[Smashtwig]

I already made my opinion above, so I feel like I don't have much to add to this conversation

 

[Daddybrawl]

If MK scales to at least 16x Clouds feat, doesn’t he just one-shot?

 

[Schnee_One]

If he can get passed clouds insane versatility and the hax he has then maybe, though I question where that comes from

 

[Daddybrawl]

Don’t they both lead with Swordplay? That’s what I got from the previous arguments.

 

[Schnee_One]

Yes but Cloud can amp pretty significantly in this key, Omnislash is also an option

 

[Stillwinston]

I mean that's still a pretty wide gap tho, could Cloud use Libra or whatever its called to see how powerful MK is?

 

[Daddybrawl]

Can he even amp himself to be 16x more powerful? In fact, we’ve been using Post Star-Allies, so he can amp himself to the power of ‘Countless’x16 Starry Sky feats when he scales to, like, one?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Dunno if this helps on this situation, but if we're using Advent Children Cloud, then he scales quite a bit above the 4-A feat.

I'm leaving Safer Sephiroth aside the chain due to how wonky the scaling can get in FF in general, but simply taking Advent Children:

Original Party (who scale to the 4-A feat) <<<<< Yazoo and Loz < Geostigma Cloud << Kadaj <<<< Full Strength Cloud <<<<< Sephiroth <<<<< Omnislash V5/6

Cloud Limit Breaks in AC from Climhazzard onwards (his mid level ones) can effectively one shot enemies who can shrug off his regular attacks (obviously not any enemy, though, or we enter NLF territory). This is relevant for another reason, Sephiroth blocked casually his original Omnislash his second strongest Limit Break and then Sephiroth used, for the first time in the fight, a serious high level technique, his Octaslash, to genuinely attack Cloud. While this did a number on Cloud, he still withstood it and could keep fighting.

Now, it must be mentioned, Limit Breaks simply increase Cloud's damage output and only Omnislash V5/6 increase explicitly increases his speed. While some Limit Breaks increase the statistics of the user as part of the effect, this has never shown to be the case with Cloud, who simply hits much harder with them.

Now if this is simply FFVII Cloud, then yeah X16 is kind of an issue actually. =P

 

[Schnee_One]

SBA means advent children Cloud yeah

 

[Smashtwig]

Yeh, Advent, or he won't get past the regen

 

[Eficiente]

Original Party (who scale to the 4-A feat) <<<<< Yazoo and Loz < Geostigma Cloud << Kadaj <<<< Full Strength Cloud <<<<< Sephiroth <<<<< Omnislash V5/6

Is that it? MK still one-shots. Magolor's feat (15 or 16 times that 4-A feat)~=King Dedede or Meta Knight<1 Jamba Heart piece (Explicitly above those 2)<Void Termina (Made of "countless" Jamba Heart pieces and their combined power)<Corrupt Hyness (This and the latter 2 were fought 1v4)<The Retaliators Three Mage-Sisters (Fought 3v4)~=Meta Knight and Dedede in the middle of Kirby Fighters 2 (Fought Kirby 2v2)<Meta Knight and Dedede's rematch (We're told they, Kirby & co. grew in power)<Amped Meta Knight and Dedede as the final bosses (They're amped and were felt with a power unlike anything Kirby and his partner every sensed before, likely implying those 2 to be above the Retaliators Three Mage-Sisters if they weren't that powerful already. Then it's stated that they would have been worthy foes even in base, so they scale to their amp, which extra content supports)

Cloud can still hax him with Death Manip, Time Manip (which doesn't do the work on its own), Size Manip (which I don't think will obstruct him AP and Durability wise), Absolute Zero Cold and maybe that Matter Manip if it works in a way that one-shots targets without a resistance (Pretty sure the fusion only hit some part of a target's body, not all of it, the rest being AP). Other hax are resisted or useless, other attacks aren't hax, and so MK seems more likely to take this.

 

[Schnee_One]

Where does 16x that feat come from?

 

[Daddybrawl]

Return to Dreamland. They scale to Magalor’s 16 Starry Sky feats, vs Clouds singular Starry Sky. At least, I’m pretty sure it is.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Is that it? MK still one-shots. Magolor's feat (15 or 16 times that 4-A feat)~=King Dedede or Meta Knight<1 Jamba Heart piece (Explicitly above those 2)<Void Termina (Made of "countless" Jamba Heart pieces and their combined power)<Corrupt Hyness (This and the latter 2 were fought 1v4)<The Retaliators Three Mage-Sisters (Fought 3v4)~=Meta Knight and Dedede in the middle of Kirby Fighters 2 (Fought Kirby 2v2)<Meta Knight and Dedede's rematch (We're told they, Kirby & co. grew in power)<Amped Meta Knight and Dedede as the final bosses (They're amped and were felt with a power unlike anything Kirby and his partner every sensed before, likely implying those 2 to be above the Retaliators Three Mage-Sisters if they weren't that powerful already. Then it's stated that they would have been worthy foes even in base, so they scale to their amp, which extra content supports)

Cloud can still hax him with Death Manip, Time Manip (which doesn't do the work on its own), Size Manip (which I don't think will obstruct him AP and Durability wise), Absolute Zero Cold and maybe that Matter Manip if it works in a way that one-shots targets without a resistance (Pretty sure the fusion only hit some part of a target's body, not all of it, the rest being AP). Other hax are resisted or useless, other attacks aren't hax, and so MK seems more likely to take this.

Hmm... thought as much. Yeah, I recall that battle in Kirby Fighters 2, the narrator mentioned that even without the Masks Dedede and Meta Knight would have been worthy opponents for Kirby and his team (and Dedede looks so disappointed at his defeat it was actually pretty sad to see, at least MK was there with him).

Hax may have options for Cloud. Surprisingly, AC Cloud does have a major disadvantage over FFVII Cloud, as the Fusion Sword does not have Materia Slots he can't use Added Effect and Elemental offensively (so he can't use his Status Effects and Absolute Zero with his regular attacks). However, options I can think of:

• Death Manipulation via Death, Odin and Finishing Touch
• Shiva's Absolute Zero
• BFR via Remove by sending enemies to the Rift
• Size Manipulation which has the side effect of Statistics Reduction, leaving the target with its attack reduced to a minimal fraction (always deals only 1 HP damage gameplay wise), however, unlike other entries in the FF franchise it doesn't affect Defense. But would it cover such a great AP gap?
• Matter Manipulation could work to deal heavy damage. To be fair, Bahamut and Flare do negate durability and they cause a nuclear fusion on the target (according to move descriptions on games and such), but they've never been portrayed as one-hit kills, more like Big Dragon Shoot Fire BOOM. We do actually consider people tanking Megaflares as them resisiting the Matter hax as Bahamut is still an important figure in FF lore and all that, and challenging him is most of the time kind of a major feat in the story,
• Time Stop and Sleep Manipulation that could allow Cloud to follow up with a winning move.

 

[Eficiente]

Where does 16x that feat come from?

It's on Magolor's profile, his last feat in his second crowned form. It collapse the interstellar area where he was fought, and the 15 areas where Sphere Doomers were fought, when Kirby & co. went through it, beat the Doomers and fix each interstellar area from being grey and being consumed by some massive space wave, with 4 of those areas also having a nebula. Really the feat "should" be 2-C if those areas are universes but we can't prove that.

• Death Manipulation via Death, Odin and Finishing Touch
• Shiva's Absolute Zero
• BFR via Remove by sending enemies to the Rift
• Size Manipulation which has the side effect of Statistics Reduction, leaving the target with its attack reduced to a minimal fraction (always deals only 1 HP damage gameplay wise), however, unlike other entries in the FF franchise it doesn't affect Defense. But would it cover such a great AP gap?
• Matter Manipulation could work to deal heavy damage. To be fair, Bahamut and Flare do negate durability and they cause a nuclear fusion on the target (according to move descriptions on games and such), but they've never been portrayed as one-hit kills, more like Big Dragon Shoot Fire BOOM. We do actually consider people tanking Megaflares as them resisiting the Matter hax as Bahamut is still an important figure in FF lore and all that, and challenging him is most of the time kind of a major feat in the story,
• Time Stop and Sleep Manipulation that could allow Cloud to follow up with a winning move.

• Works
• Works
• He should likely be able to come back by creating knights and then a Warp Star with them. He should probably be able to create a Warp Star on his own or summon it like Kirby but eh
• Well, that seems like a percentage thing, so I don't think it will do anything based on the numbers given in the FF wiki
• Then it works as of this thread but I'm pretty sure it doesn't really destroy all your matter, just messes up "a few" on contact and then blows up via sheer AP
• Sleep Manip is a form of Mind Manip, which MK resists.

 

[Schnee_One]

Sleep Manip isn’t a form of mind Manip it’s a form of stamina Manip, I’ve pointed this out before.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

How many Materia can Cloud carry at once tho.

 

[Schnee_One]

None in AC unfortunately

 

[TartaChocholate]

It's on Magolor's profile, his last feat in his second crowned form. It collapse the interstellar area where he was fought, and the 15 areas where Sphere Doomers were fought, when Kirby & co. went through it, beat the Doomers and fix each interstellar area from being grey and being consumed by some massive space wave, with 4 of those areas also having a nebula. Really the feat "should" be 2-C if those areas are universes but we can't prove that.

• Works
• Works
• He should likely be able to come back by creating knights and then a Warp Star with them. He should probably be able to create a Warp Star on his own or summon it like Kirby but eh
• Well, that seems like a percentage thing, so I don't think it will do anything based on the numbers given in the FF wiki
• Then it works as of this thread but I'm pretty sure it doesn't really destroy all your matter, just messes up "a few" on contact and then blows up via sheer AP
• Sleep Manip is a form of Mind Manip, which MK resists.

No mention in Japanese materials about it to make the case? Kinda like saying "universe" or dropping some hints somewhere? Or at best is described with the ambiguous "world" or "dimension"?

Ah my bad, had missed the Dimensional Travel in his Optional Equipment.

Regarding the Mini status, I can't really tell how to translate it to VS scenario per se, gameplay wise, it puts the Attack stat to 1 (maximum is 255, this ensures that bonuses from weapons to base Strength don't make the affected character deal good damage with the stat on), doesn't exactly cut by a percentage, but as a flat number. Still, doesn't really answer the issue if such a great AP gap is covered with the Hax or that would be overstating its effects.

It could be said so, to be fair, at least from what I looked up, Nuclear Fusion doesn't really destroy the atoms, simply causes them to, well, combine creating new atomic newclei and particles and release energy, being similar to what powers up stars. What I could piece together is that Megaflare essentially causes that reaction on what it hits, which causes it to burst. Durability Negation is also consistently a property the Megaflare has through the series (essentially it bypasses Defense and Magic Defense of the enemy) so I tied one thing to the other.

Meta Knights profile doesn't list resistance to Mind Manipulation, btw. Not doubting you, just a small note, so it can be added to his Resistances (and the other characters that also have it). Time Stop is still an option at least.

Would Paralysis work?

Schnee: He can't carry Materia in the Fusion Sword. He can still put them in armors
My bad, I missed your post on Sleep Manip.

 

[Eficiente]

Sleep Manip isn’t a form of mind Manip it’s a form of stamina Manip, I’ve pointed this out before.

I've also pointed out before that this doesn't make sense as a standard assumption, if stamina doesn't go as in the mind aspect then it's biological, and we shouldn't assume one's body is literally sustain itself awake via biology being messed up because anyone can sleep whenever they feel like it without their bodies being unable to sustain them awoke or being too tired, anyone who got Sleep Manip'd can be woken up 99% of the time in fiction with 0 repercussions, their bodies suffered nothing of consequence. The ability can be via this Stamina Manip we don't have as a power but it's not a standard assumption.

 

[Schnee_One]

No it is a Standard Assumption, it’s the reason why Sleep Manip and mind Manip are not listed under the same page.

Sleep Manip working on the mind is something that doesn’t work when you consider it is impossible for someone fully awake to fall asleep instantly, something sleep Manip usually does is making someone incredibly tired. Sleep is explicitly a biological necessity.

I pointed this out previous to the forum move and there needs to be a thread to change this because that’s not a standard assumption.

 

[Eficiente]

Our Mind Manip page doesn't give applications like the Mental Manip in the Superpower wiki, Sleep Manip not being listed means nothing. That portrayal doesn't make sense, knocking other targets' conscience can put them to sleep regardless of them being fully awake and it's just as impossible to make someone physically tired instantly than to make make them sleep instantly, the standard assumption is that the target went to sleep, not got too tired and therefore went to sleep, sleep is a willing action and a result of a few things, you only see it as the result of 1 thing. Mostly in fiction never see characters being physically tired by the power, otherwise a number of Sleep Manip users also be getting Stat Reduction too, the victims can believe they're tired and be sleepy after waking up due to sleeping putting them in that mood, but that's not the same, we mostly see 0 changes to their bodies or drawbacks in their performance.

 

[Schnee_One]

Superpower wiki isn’t the vs battle wiki, that’s irrelevant. Saying there’s a link between two abilities based on a personal belief is a no.

Taking damage and getting KO’d is taxing on Stamina though, taking major hits to the brain makes it tired from the damage, so yes taking damage and fighting is taxing on stamina, fighting for long periods of time is a stamina feat for a reason.

Stat reduction doesn’t have anything to do with sleep either unless Stamina is a stat, which it can be a lot of the time, and thus even more reason.

 

[Eficiente]

That missed the point which was that our page didn't show applications, only a few uses, take the link to Superpower as an idea of what showing applications would really look like, regardless if you disagree with any number of them. When have I ever said something based on a personal belief and not based on logic?

What does that have to do with anything? With "knocking other targets' conscience" I meant like with the a hand gesture or voice command, and like you would see in any movie/game/comic the victim waking up will just keep doing what it was doing no problem, if given the chance it would mostly not be shown them being now tired or disabled, that being because they were just obliged to sleep.

Stamina is a stat, you don't need to be in a verse where that's taken as a stat for us to give Stats Amp or Reduction with it. With that said, I encourage to make a CRT to add that in the Sleep Manip page, if anything the part saying "Sleep Inducement: Making an opponent fall asleep against their will." goes more in line with what I said.

 

[Schnee_One]

<When have I ever said something based on a personal belief and not based on logic?

Many times, not like this is relevant to begin with, personal belief is ones own logic on the matter, again though, irrelevant.

<take the link to Superpower as an idea of what showing applications would really look like, regardless if you disagree with any number of them.

That doesn’t mean we automatically assume that powers completely unlisted are tied together because you think it is, that has to be put on pages and accepted, which I have already pointed out needs to be made and accepted before assuming it’s based on the mind, if anything, sleep is an application depending on how it works, but unless that’s a standard, you don’t assume.

Im assuming you were referring to physical trauma, if you weren’t, this goes back to the previous issue of his mind manipulation makes a brain tired enough to go to sleep instantly, when normal human biology doesn’t work that way.

Ill make a CRT regarding sleep even if I believe it’s unnecessary, but that’s for another time.

 

[ElixirBlue]

So...

Not looking for who supports who, but what has been determined.

What advantages does Meta Knight have over Cloud and what advantages does Cloud have over Meta Knight (not counting the Sleep Manipulation just yet)?


Meta Knight:

Cloud:

 

[Daddybrawl]

MK: Empath Hax, Dozens if not hundreds times higher AP, Harder to hit due to Size + Willing to utilize Mobility. Cloud starts with Swordplay last I checked as well.

Cloud: More Hax, Higher Sword Reach, Status Reductions and all sorts of things similar.

At least, that’s what I Understand.

 

[ElixirBlue]

"More Hax" sounds vague. What if MK resist most of them?

 

[Daddybrawl]

MK resist some, gets wrecked by others. For example, he can come back from BFR, but that Death Manip he doesn’t resist in the slightest.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Can you make a quick list?

 

[Schnee_One]

It's on Magolor's profile, his last feat in his second crowned form. It collapse the interstellar area where he was fought, and the 15 areas where Sphere Doomers were fought, when Kirby & co. went through it, beat the Doomers and fix each interstellar area from being grey and being consumed by some massive space wave, with 4 of those areas also having a nebula. Really the feat "should" be 2-C if those areas are universes but we can't prove that.

• Works
• Works
• He should likely be able to come back by creating knights and then a Warp Star with them. He should probably be able to create a Warp Star on his own or summon it like Kirby but eh
• Well, that seems like a percentage thing, so I don't think it will do anything based on the numbers given in the FF wiki
• Then it works as of this thread but I'm pretty sure it doesn't really destroy all your matter, just messes up "a few" on contact and then blows up via sheer AP
• Sleep Manip is a form of Mind Manip, which MK resists.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I gotta ask, as I have an idea who to vote for, but what is Cloud's first move?

 

[Stillwinston]

I mean he generally doesn't have one afaik, that on he'll just open with swordplay

 

[Smashtwig]

Oh wait, right, Fusion Sword doesn't have Materia slots- I don't think Cloud used ANY Materia in Advent. Yeah, if that's the case, along with the apparent AP Advantage.... uh, yikes