Classroom Of The Elite: Adding back A Calc

[Zefra3011]

Time ago I made this calc which was accepted.

The only reason why we don't use it is because in a CRT we talked about it and we ended up removing it because the manga (wrote by the author) showed the scene differently from the anime. (see here)

After looking into it again tho I noticed that the manga shows the scene differently compared to the novel while the anime adapts it better so I want to propose to add the calc back using the anime as visual reference.

I'll send all the 3 versions of the feat for reference:

Novel version

Manga version

Anime verison


The first thing the novel describes is that Ayanokouji starts to move while Manabu moves forward

He moved forward, as if about to act. The situation looked fraught with danger. Resigned to facing Horikita’s anger, I leapt out from my hiding space and went after her brother.

The anime shows exactly this, Manabu moves his arm forward and Ayanokouji arriving in the while.

The manga instead shows Ayanokouji ignoring Manabu moving forward and only moving while he was lifting his sister, which is different compared to what is described in the novel.

Not only this but in the novel it was never described that Manabu lifted his sister, on the opposite we know Ayanokouji arrived an Manabu was still pinning his sister to the wall

Before he knew I was there, I grabbed his right arm, which he was using to pin his sister.

Again, in the manga Manabu was already lifting his sister when Ayanokouji arrived while in the anime he was still pinning his sister to the wall as he didn't lift her.

So in conclusion even tho the manga should take priority over the anime the novel takes priority over anything and since the anime adapts the scene correctly while the manga adapts the scene differently compared to the primary canon (the novel) I believe we can add the calc back using the anime as visual representation of the feat.



While I'm at it I also want to change the speed justifications for Manabu's profile, the profile is outdated and he currently scales to Ayanokouji because Ayanokouji barely dodges one of his attacks calling it a close call but it's entirely an anime only thing since in the novel it's never mentioned anything like that; the other reason is that he could race with Ayanokouji, the problem here is that Ayanokouji wasn't moving at top speed as himself mentioned he could have run faster even tho at the end a student fell in front of him so at the end he couldn't, also moving at max speed would contradict Ayanokouji's character (at least doing it in public), here some examples:

- "and why? Despite his superiority he refuses to reveal what he is capable of"

- Ayanokouji had to demostrate his grip strenght but before doing it he asked "what's the average?" and proceded to go for exactly the average

- "it's just, if possible, I would like to get out without revealing that sort of strenght"

So Ayanokouji going all out in an unnecessary situation isn't correct.

To show even more superiority we have Ayanokouji blitzing characters superior to Manabu, he even outspeeded Housen who is directly confirmed to be stronger than Manabu; we also directly have Ayanokouji outspeeding Manabu.


Summary:

1) Ayanokouji now scales to Subsonic+ based on the calc that uses the anime since the manga shows the feat differently while the anime shows exactly what's described in the novel; no one else scales to this feat btw.

2) Removing Manabu scaling to Ayanokouji due to the above reasoning, he will just scale to other lower characters; having Manabu scaling to Ayanokouji was so absurd no one was upgrading Manabu's profile to match Ayanokouji's one.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Since the feat was casually, Would Koji be able to move into the transonic range?

Also agree

 

[Zefra3011]

Since the feat was casually, Would Koji be able to move into the transonic range?

At most only the other keys Ayanokouji has will upscale to transonic, the calc is like 15 m/s from transonic and since the other keys he has are faster than this one I guess it can be done but I'll hear staff for this.

 

[RoggerReggor]

The only thing about this scene is that Ayanokouji actually shows his Analytical Prediction ability in the light novel, even mentioning that Manabu was going to throw his sister, while basically contradicting himself and saying that he was "pinning" her. Manabu even acknowledges Ayanokouji's predictions.

So, here's my opinion for the scene.

Ayanokouji predicts that Manabu was going to throw his sister, even telling him that.

"You possess neither the abilities nor the qualities needed to reach Class A. Get that through your head."
He moved forward, as if about to act. The situation looked fraught with danger. Resigned to facing Horikita's anger, I leapt out from my hiding space and went after her brother.
Before he knew I was there, I grabbed his right arm, which he was using to pin his sister.
"What? You..." He stared at his arm and slowly turned to me with a sharp gleam in his eye.
"A-Ayanokouji-kun?!" Horikita cried.
"You were about to throw your sister to the ground, weren't you? You do realize the floor here is concrete, right? You might be siblings, but you should know the difference between right and wrong."

Manabu later on confirms that Ayanokouji's predictions were correct.

"Good reflexes. I didn't imagine you could evade all of my blows so quickly. Also, you seemed to understand quite well what I was trying to do. Have you been taught?"

Manga itself is kind of wrong because Manabu had already "moved forward" and acted on it as well.

While at the same time, the anime gives a much better insight on the scene, even showing Ayanokouji analyzing the movements when Manabu moved itself.

The only reason why we didn't go for this scene was because Ayanokouji mentioned that Manabu was going to throw his sister to the ground, the manga just shows Manabu already throwing his sister, while the light novel doesn't even intend for that to happen.

Also, Ayanokouji has done predictions far better than this. He was able to predict that Housen was aiming to harm himself instead of him with the knife upon the scenario and his deductions. In the entire fight with Tsukishiro and Shiba, he dodged all of Shiba's attacks even when Shiba was attacking him from behind, not that it matters to him as Ayanokouji has enhanced senses, but he himself said that he was doing it on his intuition prediction abilities linked with his upper limit analysis, and Shiba was also linking his movements with Tsukishiro, so as soon as Ayanokouji dodged Tsukishiro's attacks, Shiba also attacked Ayanokouji to get him good in the path itself, while Ayanokouji always predicted and moved accordingly to avoid the subsequent blows of both the people at once.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright from a glance.

 

[RoggerReggor]

While I'm at it I also want to change the speed justifications for Manabu's profile, the profile is outdated and he currently scales to Ayanokouji because Ayanokouji barely dodges one of his attacks calling it a close call but it's entirely an anime only thing since in the novel it's never mentioned anything like that; the other reason is that he could race with Ayanokouji, the problem here is that Ayanokouji wasn't moving at top speed as himself mentioned he could have run faster even tho at the end a student fell in front of him so at the end he couldn't, also moving at max speed would contradict Ayanokouji's character (at least doing it in public), here some examples:

- "and why? Despite his superiority he refuses to reveal what he is capable of"

- Ayanokouji had to demostrate his grip strenght but before doing it he asked "what's the average?" and proceded to go for exactly the average

- "it's just, if possible, I would like to get out without revealing that sort of strenght"

So Ayanokouji going all out in an unnecessary situation isn't correct.

To show even more superiority we have Ayanokouji blitzing characters superior to Manabu, he even outspeeded Housen who is directly confirmed to be stronger than Manabu; we also directly have Ayanokouji outspeeding Manabu.

I guess we will also need a justification for Manabu's speed ratings.

So, how does this seem?:

Speed: At least Superhuman (Manabu is much superior to the likes of Ryuuen as he can avoid Ryuuen's attacks casually, Manabu was described by Mashima-sensei to be an outstanding student, with very high academic and physical abilities, and was under the impression that the newer batch of freshmen wouldn't be able to compete with them, which should make Manabu superior to the likes of Albert as he was also a freshman at the time of the statement, and has already performed this feat of running at speeds this high. Manabu also matched the level of Ayanokouji, though it was stated that Ayanokouji was holding back, and he also attacked Ayanokouji to the point of the attack being considered as a "close call", though it is debatable if Ayanokouji was actually giving it his all to dodge the attacks.)

I know that Zetsu is currently working on the profiles, but as we are actually changing just the speed justifications on Manabu's profile, I think doing this correction wouldn't be too much.

 

[Vzearr]

Assuming Manabu had reached peak speed after extending his arm 18cm is nonsense!

In addition to that, the anime shows that the speed difference between Manabu and Ayanokouji isn't a factor of 20x. Manabu covers a similar distance to what Ayanokouji covers, this isn't indicative of a 20x speed difference.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Assuming Manabu had reached peak speed after extending his arm 18cm is nonsense!

Punches or arm attacks don't work like kicks. In kicks, you have to race against the gravity, but this is more of a horizontal distance. You can very well maintain a constant speed, that's why you have 1 inch punch (basically humans generating high power due to speed in just 1 inch of distance coverage) but not any kick techniques like that. I believe you saw this argument in a feat including kicks?

In addition to that, the anime shows that the speed difference between Manabu and Ayanokouji isn't a factor of 20x. Manabu covers a similar distance to what Ayanokouji covers, this isn't indicative of a 20x speed difference.

Read the calc and be aware of the feat, Ayanokouji is intended to have moved only after Manabu starts to move forward as if he is about to act, the anime is simply used for the distance ideas.

Ayanokouji moved out of his hiding space which is around 3-4 m from the place Manabu was residing in.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Also, similar to this, why do we use the distance moved as roughly half of 3 meters and also include the distance moved by Manabu after Ayanokouji's hand shows up in frame? Shouldn't we use just the distance traveled by Manabu's hand till the frame when Ayanokouji's hand actually appears in the screen?

@Zefra3011

 

[Vzearr]

Punches or arm attacks don't work like kicks. In kicks, you have to race against the gravity, but this is more of a horizontal distance. You can very well maintain a constant speed, that's why you have 1 inch punch (basically humans generating high power due to speed in just 1 inch of distance coverage) but not any kick techniques like that. I believe you saw this argument in a feat including kicks?

This isn't what I was saying. Manabu didn't have time to accelerate his attack to its peak speed, after all, 18cm is nowhere near long enough to accelerate to 14 m/s. In addition to that, the anime show's Manabu's movement to be quite slow.

Read the calc and be aware of the feat, Ayanokouji is intended to have moved only after Manabu starts to move forward as if he is about to act, the anime is simply used for the distance ideas.

Cherry picking fallacy. You want to use anime distances for one part of the calc but not for another?!

 

[MCH2]

Given Suzune was pinned and held down and the small distance, I see no reason to use peak human for the Manabu speed here. I think an average one should be used instead (8.94 m/s). This would spit out ~188 m/s with Zefra’s other variables. The feat looks casual anyway.


I agree with not scaling Manabu with Ayanokoji obviously, he is explicitly scaled beneath Hosen in narrative. The only reason people think they are similar is our famously unreliable narrator Ayanokoji saying he ran at full speed in that race.

(Fwiw, why not use the speed in that race to calc Manabu’s speed instead?)

 

[RoggerReggor]

This isn't what I was saying. Manabu didn't have time to accelerate his attack to its peak speed, after all, 18cm is nowhere near long enough to accelerate to 14 m/s. In addition to that, the anime show's Manabu's movement to be quite slow.

His initial movements even have effects of slow motion, so using the anime speed is bad icl.

18 cm is quite long to basically do a good punch. In fact, I ChatGPTed it real quick and found that even a one-inch punch can go at good speeds, like around 9 m/s.

Cherry picking fallacy at its finest. You want to use anime distances for one part of the calc but not for another?!

I am not cherry picking. Cherry picking is completely denying the shown information for the feat, which is half-represented, but in reality, we basically do have context regarding the feat coming from the light novel, which basically says that Ayanokouji moved after Manabu started to move himself, the manga also goes the same path, and anime basically resembles the feat except for dialogues, I am not doing it based on some simple

 

[RoggerReggor]

Given Suzune was pinned and held down and the small distance, I see no reason to use peak human for the Manabu speed here. I think an average one should be used instead (8.94 m/s). This would spit out ~188 m/s with Zefra’s other variables. The feat looks casual anyway.

You can use speeds for characters when they do have narratives and feats supporting their tier, like Manabu does have pretty good statements for scaling over Albert who can run at superhuman speeds, so it doesn't take a genius to know that Manabu can do it as well.

But yes, I will agree that the distance traveled by the punch, if we included the distance traveled till Ayanokouji showed up in the frame (which isn't what is done I believe), it would be very less to actually go at those speeds.

(Fwiw, why not use the speed in that race to calc Manabu’s speed instead?)

That's called calc stacking, using results from another calc for another feat to calculate another feat.

 

[MCH2]

That's called calc stacking, using results from another calc for another feat to calculate another feat.

I am not talking about using his speed in that race for here, it wouldn’t be helpful anyway.

I am just saying calcing that would be helpful for Manabu’s key. Since that’s explicitly Manabu’s full speed.instead of linking his speed in any shape to Ayano’s.

 

[Vzearr]

His initial movements even have effects of slow motion, so using the anime speed is bad icl.

They do not.

18 cm is quite long to basically do a good punch. In fact, I ChatGPTed it real quick and found that even a one-inch punch can go at good speeds, like around 9 m/s.

1.19 m/s*.

which basically says that Ayanokouji moved after Manabu started to move himself

No, it doesn't. "He moved forward as if he was about to act" isn't indicative that Manabu had begun his attack before Ayanokouji began to move from his initial position.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I am not talking about using his speed in that race for here, it wouldn’t be helpful anyway.

I am just saying calcing that would be helpful for Manabu’s key. Since that’s explicitly Manabu’s full speed.instead of linking his speed in any shape to Ayano’s.

I see, I am sorry to mis-interpret you. That can actually be done btw, though I am not sure if that anime representation would actually get Manabu up to the representation done for Albert's feat, good thing we have that narrative lol.

 

[RoggerReggor]

They do not.
https://youtu.be/WuPaMEZG5O4?si=ZHyVkYKEwlwKYBZd&t=18

I am referring to the movements he makes before moving forward.

1.19 m/s*.

I see that (I guess ChatGPT made the mistake), I think we can actually just calculate Manabu's speed by the timeframe given by the anime.

No, it doesn't. "He moved forward as if he was about to act" isn't indicative that Manabu had begun his attack before Ayanokouji began to move from his initial position.

We do have context behind this from the LN, "about to act" was basically asked by Ayanokouji and confirmed by Manabu that it meant "about to throw", so "about to act" literally means "about to throw". While that thing isn't indicative, the next information surely is.

 

[Vzearr]

I am referring to the movements he makes before moving forward.

Why is that important? The movement he makes whilst attacking show his initial speed isn't anywhere near 14 m/s.

I think we can actually just calculate Manabu's speed by the timeframe given by the anime.

I'd prefer that.

We do have context behind this from the LN, "about to act" was basically asked by Ayanokouji and confirmed by Manabu that it meant "about to throw", so "about to act" literally means "about to throw". While that thing isn't indicative, the next information surely is.

"About to throw" also isn't indicative that he was in the motion of attacking Horikita before Ayanokouji had moved.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Why is that important?

I thought you were referring to that because it looked very slow.

"About to throw" also isn't indicative that he was in the motion of attacking Horikita before Ayanokouji had moved.

I am literally not saying that it is indicative, it basically confirms that "about to act" in Ayanokouji's statement had the word "act" which meant "to throw".

 

[Vzearr]

I am literally not saying that it is indicative, it basically confirms that "about to act" in Ayanokouji's statement had the word "act" which meant "to throw".

Oh okay.

@Zefra3011 would you be willing to calculate Manabu's speed in the anime to replace the 14m/s value? Although I still have some slight issues with Ayanokouji's movement being in sync with Manabu's.

 

[Zefra3011]

Ill calc a new version later.

 

[Zefra3011]

Also, similar to this, why do we use the distance moved as roughly half of 3 meters and also include the distance moved by Manabu after Ayanokouji's hand shows up in frame? Shouldn't we use just the distance traveled by Manabu's hand till the frame when Ayanokouji's hand actually appears in the screen?

@Zefra3011

Oh okay.

@Zefra3011 would you be willing to calculate Manabu's speed in the anime to replace the 14m/s value? Although I still have some slight issues with Ayanokouji's movement being in sync with Manabu's.

Classroom Of The Elite: Ayanokouji outspeeds Manabu

vsbattles.fandom.com

I simply used the anime time frame, it wouldn't change anything calcing Manabu's speed with the anime as the result would be the same anyway.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Classroom Of The Elite: Ayanokouji outspeeds Manabu

vsbattles.fandom.com

I simply used the anime time frame, it wouldn't change anything calcing Manabu's speed with the anime as the result would be the same anyway.

This seems much better.

 

[Dereck03]

Classroom Of The Elite: Ayanokouji outspeeds Manabu

vsbattles.fandom.com

I simply used the anime time frame, it wouldn't change anything calcing Manabu's speed with the anime as the result would be the same anyway.

Are you guys going to use this calc? If so then get it evaluated first, after that this may pass.

 

[wwereymy235]

Are you guys going to use this calc? If so then get it evaluated first, after that this may pass.

Thanks pookie bear

 

[Zefra3011]

The new calc has been accepted and given we have 2 approvals I'll add it.

Classroom Of The Elite: Ayanokouji outspeeds Manabu

vsbattles.fandom.com