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Classic Mega Man (Canon) vs. Sonic the Hedgehog (Canon)
- Thread starter ImagoDesattrolante
- Start date
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@Undylan Except that I've actually got logical points, and you just ignored what I said.
Duo's Meteor Strike in the fight against Mega Man provides a paradox whose only answer is that Duo was holding back so as to not cause unnecessary destruction, because his Meteor Strike can't be both Street-Level to not destroy anything AND Multi-Continent Level to be able to damage Mega Man at the same time. And if he was using it at full speed, it would have to be the latter.
And I've already summed up why the BHB and Saturn's Black Hole aren't real black holes.
Duo's Meteor Strike in the fight against Mega Man provides a paradox whose only answer is that Duo was holding back so as to not cause unnecessary destruction, because his Meteor Strike can't be both Street-Level to not destroy anything AND Multi-Continent Level to be able to damage Mega Man at the same time. And if he was using it at full speed, it would have to be the latter.
And I've already summed up why the BHB and Saturn's Black Hole aren't real black holes.
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@Neosonic97, ever heard of game mechanics? In fact, tell me one of your favorite verses, I'll help you "fix" it.
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Sonic obviouslySomebodyStupid said:
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I'm not even arguing Game Mechanics here. Duo is often considered Planet-level, is he not? Then why would his Meteor Strike, which allegedly moves faster than light to a significant margin, when used at full power, not destroy ANYTHING when it can harm the similarly durable Mega Man? Even with Game Mechanics in play there'd still be at least some visible sign he's dealing damage but there's only a slight screen shake. It doesn't make sense, whether used with game mechanics or without.
There's a very large inconsistency there, one that goes beyond Gameplay and Story Segregation, so I honestly can't take "Game Mechanics" as a legitimate argument.
There's a very large inconsistency there, one that goes beyond Gameplay and Story Segregation, so I honestly can't take "Game Mechanics" as a legitimate argument.
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1. So now Beerus and Whis who were capable of passing multiple galaxies and traveling vast distances from different galaxies aren't FTL, and Goku fighting them doesn't make him MFTL. You either didn't watch Super, or the mods won't mind if I say a few words about you, will you mods?Neosonic97 said:
2. Duo is far superior to Megaman though, we already know this, even after he was re-constructed, so that doesn't matter.
3. I don't know how this matters but OK. Stop wanking Sonic I guess?
4. It doesn't really matter. Rush can travel at MFTL speeds, and Megaman can dodge at similar speeds to that, that's all that matters.
5. Sonic is FTL due to statements mostly saying he was FTL though in base. Trust me, I was the one who found the information. I do believe that Super Sonic should be much faster than Sonic (Possibly be MFTL), but you're taking things too far. Megaman is faster than Light by a very large margin though.
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1. Alright, I'll admit i haven't watched Super to that point yet. I was referring to the movie version anyway, where Goku, even before being capable of moving Lightspeed, punches a pretty hefty hole in the planet. As for their fighting not destroying planets, It's either Goku's and Beerus' blows were cancelling each other out or they were explicitly trying to not destroy the planet. I definitely know that's the case when he and Vegeta fought Whis, because they were merely sparring. Unsure about Beerus, though.
2. The issue is that people seem to think Mega Man's MOVEMENT speed scales to Duo's through this. It doesn't, since it causes one massive inconsistency with a logical paradox to boot, that Game Mechanics can't answer for. (How can an MFTL attack coming from a Planet-buster be both multi-continent to planet and street level at the same time?) We can't scale Mega Man to Duo's Meteor Strike because the only logical conclusion i can come to is that Duo was holding back to avoid causing massive amounts of destruction, and thus the Meteor Strike was far slower than the version he used to reach Earth from Jupiter in mere seconds. In addition, he later uses the same version of the Meteor Strike to escape when Proto Man shows up. It only blows the wall down, not the entire mountain.
3. It was being used as an argument against me for some reason. I was just pointing out how stupid that is.
4. This i can feasibly see. I just need a size to confirm it.
5. Reaction speed? Maybe. Movement speed is another story, though. I've already stated why the calcs putting Mega's movement speed at MFTL (Minus teleporters) is dodgy.
2. The issue is that people seem to think Mega Man's MOVEMENT speed scales to Duo's through this. It doesn't, since it causes one massive inconsistency with a logical paradox to boot, that Game Mechanics can't answer for. (How can an MFTL attack coming from a Planet-buster be both multi-continent to planet and street level at the same time?) We can't scale Mega Man to Duo's Meteor Strike because the only logical conclusion i can come to is that Duo was holding back to avoid causing massive amounts of destruction, and thus the Meteor Strike was far slower than the version he used to reach Earth from Jupiter in mere seconds. In addition, he later uses the same version of the Meteor Strike to escape when Proto Man shows up. It only blows the wall down, not the entire mountain.
3. It was being used as an argument against me for some reason. I was just pointing out how stupid that is.
4. This i can feasibly see. I just need a size to confirm it.
5. Reaction speed? Maybe. Movement speed is another story, though. I've already stated why the calcs putting Mega's movement speed at MFTL (Minus teleporters) is dodgy.
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1. OK.
2. Because often in media, displays of power aren't as strong as they should be. The cutscenes tell you all the information you need. Other sources tell you how strong the powers are, etc. You don't need to display the power often times if there's enough information stating what it is or it is implied to be something.
3. Just no wanking Sonic, a loss is a loss for him if it is.
4. OK.
5. If that's what you wish to prove, then yeah, do that.
2. Because often in media, displays of power aren't as strong as they should be. The cutscenes tell you all the information you need. Other sources tell you how strong the powers are, etc. You don't need to display the power often times if there's enough information stating what it is or it is implied to be something.
3. Just no wanking Sonic, a loss is a loss for him if it is.
4. OK.
5. If that's what you wish to prove, then yeah, do that.
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2. My issue comes from the fact that it's more believable that Duo was holding back, rather than going full force, given his personality, and there's the fact that Mega Man didn't beat Duo, he simply managed to survive against him long enough for Duo to stop attacking, and again, the Meteor Strike, even in the cutscene that followed afterwards, didn't do all that much damage. It screams to me that Duo was likely holding back, and wasn't using the Meteor Strike at the same level of power as he did to actually reach the Earth- didn't that one leave a large crater, like the Evil Energy did? So it's unlikely that Duo was travelling at the same speed as he did in the cutscene where he flew to Earth.
3. Yeah, i understand this. I'm just saying the BHB is unlikely to be what causes this.
3. Yeah, i understand this. I'm just saying the BHB is unlikely to be what causes this.
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Ok but i want to ask is Darkspine restricted from the fight?Davy0 said:
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I'd assume Darkspine is discluded lest he stomp Mega Man into dust (Darkspine is Universe-level, based on scaling to Alf-Layla wa Layla). And while Mega Man can freeze time, So can Sonic, using Chaos Control.
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you say that as if sonic doesn't have time manipulation of his own, But Mega Man beats Sonic in his base form, Super Form is a toss up, Hyper form wins and Darkspine winsReppuzan said:
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Looking athe first part of this comment made me cringe, now I suggest you do actual research before saying something. I would throw the Piccolo card but it seems your beyond reasoning.Neosonic97 said:
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Just so you all know I already countered Neosonic on all of these points on DBF and he never replied to me. In fact he continued to talk behind my back to people in comments unrelated to mine. My guess is that he knows what he's saying is wrong but is peddaling it anyways because he thinks I'm not here: http://deathbattlefanon.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_vs_Mega_Ma
Comments section
Also, Mega Man isn't far weaker than Duo, they're in the same tier both dc/durability and speedwise but Duo is a bit above him. In fact even Bass is on Duo's level considering that Duo needed to team up with him in Power Fighters out of necessity (Duo wouldn't team up with somebody evil like Bass unless it was necesssary, and Bass' ending is confirmed canon so it's not like they are only together in the intro)
Mega Man dodged attacks from the giant mech that gave Duo trouble and Duo needed effort to dodge. Mega Man also survived a prolonged assault from said mech who was empowered by the Evil Energy. A single strand of the Evil Energy contributed to the giant crater on Jupiter's surface, and Mega Man was also surviving blasts from the Evil Energy that injured Duo, as well as dodging blasts from Wily's #8 machine that moved faster than Duo's full speed charge. I would argue Megs has the advantage in combat speed over Duo, and advantage in travel speed with Space Rush. Heck, Sunstar has a better feat than Duo and the Evil Energy and Mega Man straight up bodied Sunstar via just being superior to him (Sunstar is the only final boss with no weakness whatsoever)
I don't have the time to address this fully, but if Neosonic is going to go behind my back without addressing me and continue peddaling debunked arguments, I feel this is the least I can do to input.
Comments section
Also, Mega Man isn't far weaker than Duo, they're in the same tier both dc/durability and speedwise but Duo is a bit above him. In fact even Bass is on Duo's level considering that Duo needed to team up with him in Power Fighters out of necessity (Duo wouldn't team up with somebody evil like Bass unless it was necesssary, and Bass' ending is confirmed canon so it's not like they are only together in the intro)
Mega Man dodged attacks from the giant mech that gave Duo trouble and Duo needed effort to dodge. Mega Man also survived a prolonged assault from said mech who was empowered by the Evil Energy. A single strand of the Evil Energy contributed to the giant crater on Jupiter's surface, and Mega Man was also surviving blasts from the Evil Energy that injured Duo, as well as dodging blasts from Wily's #8 machine that moved faster than Duo's full speed charge. I would argue Megs has the advantage in combat speed over Duo, and advantage in travel speed with Space Rush. Heck, Sunstar has a better feat than Duo and the Evil Energy and Mega Man straight up bodied Sunstar via just being superior to him (Sunstar is the only final boss with no weakness whatsoever)
I don't have the time to address this fully, but if Neosonic is going to go behind my back without addressing me and continue peddaling debunked arguments, I feel this is the least I can do to input.
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Also are people still taking the concrete sealing black hole reasoning seriously? Even if it was a legit debunk, that only applies to Galaxy Man's black hole, not Saturn's. Not to mention that the concrete is a transmutative hax weapon, not a brute strength/physical weapon. It transmutes more or less everything in the game, including magma. Does that mean the magma isn't legit? No, the concrete shooter just breaks the laws of physics in the game constantly. Funny how nobody brought it up before Death Battle but out of nowhere that reasoning suddenly is legit. But I do have a long post explaining why the black holes are legit so I will paste it
" http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=26532
And before anybody argues that it is a pseudo-black hole, that would be incorrect. For starters, the black hole was created from his gravity manipulation + space/time powers, legitimate black holes have properties that only manipulators of space and time could replicate.
http://i.imgur.com/rjjXiid.png
Strike one
From my convo with Taco I am too lazy to edit:
'Taco: Although, just because the weapon is called Black Hole doesn't mean it's a tried and true black hole. Could just be a nod to the fact that his powers involve gravity. Is there mention of singularities or anything like that which might corroborate it?
Me: Saturn's works similarly to Gravity Beetle's and Antonion's, both of which are labelled as space/time weapons and have space/time manipulation/properties
From his Rock Man & Forte Database CD- His special weapon Black Hole can suck anything. A next generation robot that can manipulate time and space.
The 2nd sentence can not be referring to any power aside from Black Hole for obvious reasons.
Strike two
Gravity Beetle and Gravity Antonion also both have incredibly strong gravity manipulation, which explains them forming the black holes. Furthermore Beetle's is outright referred to as a gravity well and it can not be explained as anything akin to a worm hole as an alternative. Navigators also explain that the gravity and effects of the black holes are localized, which is why it does not destroy anything in the background unless they want it to (see Gravity Beetle's X3 intro and compare it to his boss fight for reference)'"
Strike three
From the Mega Man X8 script: ALIA: Looks like there's a gravity control system in place in this facility. You can probably open up new routes by rotating the gravitational pull.[X moves forward into the next area.]ALIA: There are blocks around here that are affected by the changes in gravita-tional pull. You should take note of the position of the blocks and predict theway they'll move. Some enemies can be destroyed by falling blocks, so be sure to use them to your advantage.[X moves on until he finds a room with multiple gravity switches.]ALIA: It appears that the gravity manipulation switches operate differently ithis room. They should help you find a route to the next area if you get stuck.ALIA: I've detected a Maverick signal up ahead. There are no gravity switches in here. But apparently the target has the ability to alter gravity at will. Be careful when gravity is altered. You don't want to get caught up in the chaos.Strike four
Most obviously, Antonion's black hole is capable of sucking up projectiles such as X's mega buster fire which X7 shows to have long distance travelling of sub-relativistic speeds, and it even absorbs Optic Sunflower's weapon. Optic Sunflower specifically manipulates the EM spectrum itself, meaning that the black hole can in fact absorb light, and the escape velocities of Saturn, Galaxy Man, Gravity Beetle, and Gravity Antonion's black holes were reached only by faster than light (via plenty of other feats) characters such as X, Zero, and Axl
Strike five
Also of note is the fact that the black holes in this Mega Man timeline have been repeatedly demonstrated to be destroyed only by weapons pertaining to them, they are unable to be destroyed by brute force which is another characteristic of a black hole
Strike six and you're out twice in a row
With all of that taken into consideration, they are certainly legitimate black holes. There are more than a few black holes feat that were accepted for far less evidence."
" http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=26532
And before anybody argues that it is a pseudo-black hole, that would be incorrect. For starters, the black hole was created from his gravity manipulation + space/time powers, legitimate black holes have properties that only manipulators of space and time could replicate.
http://i.imgur.com/rjjXiid.png
Strike one
From my convo with Taco I am too lazy to edit:
'Taco: Although, just because the weapon is called Black Hole doesn't mean it's a tried and true black hole. Could just be a nod to the fact that his powers involve gravity. Is there mention of singularities or anything like that which might corroborate it?
Me: Saturn's works similarly to Gravity Beetle's and Antonion's, both of which are labelled as space/time weapons and have space/time manipulation/properties
From his Rock Man & Forte Database CD- His special weapon Black Hole can suck anything. A next generation robot that can manipulate time and space.
The 2nd sentence can not be referring to any power aside from Black Hole for obvious reasons.
Strike two
Gravity Beetle and Gravity Antonion also both have incredibly strong gravity manipulation, which explains them forming the black holes. Furthermore Beetle's is outright referred to as a gravity well and it can not be explained as anything akin to a worm hole as an alternative. Navigators also explain that the gravity and effects of the black holes are localized, which is why it does not destroy anything in the background unless they want it to (see Gravity Beetle's X3 intro and compare it to his boss fight for reference)'"
Strike three
From the Mega Man X8 script: ALIA: Looks like there's a gravity control system in place in this facility. You can probably open up new routes by rotating the gravitational pull.[X moves forward into the next area.]ALIA: There are blocks around here that are affected by the changes in gravita-tional pull. You should take note of the position of the blocks and predict theway they'll move. Some enemies can be destroyed by falling blocks, so be sure to use them to your advantage.[X moves on until he finds a room with multiple gravity switches.]ALIA: It appears that the gravity manipulation switches operate differently ithis room. They should help you find a route to the next area if you get stuck.ALIA: I've detected a Maverick signal up ahead. There are no gravity switches in here. But apparently the target has the ability to alter gravity at will. Be careful when gravity is altered. You don't want to get caught up in the chaos.Strike four
Most obviously, Antonion's black hole is capable of sucking up projectiles such as X's mega buster fire which X7 shows to have long distance travelling of sub-relativistic speeds, and it even absorbs Optic Sunflower's weapon. Optic Sunflower specifically manipulates the EM spectrum itself, meaning that the black hole can in fact absorb light, and the escape velocities of Saturn, Galaxy Man, Gravity Beetle, and Gravity Antonion's black holes were reached only by faster than light (via plenty of other feats) characters such as X, Zero, and Axl
Strike five
Also of note is the fact that the black holes in this Mega Man timeline have been repeatedly demonstrated to be destroyed only by weapons pertaining to them, they are unable to be destroyed by brute force which is another characteristic of a black hole
Strike six and you're out twice in a row
With all of that taken into consideration, they are certainly legitimate black holes. There are more than a few black holes feat that were accepted for far less evidence."
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Yeah like I said, Duo and Proto Man are above Mega Man and Bass though it's not by an extreme degree by any means, Duo needed their help to beat Dr. Wily's army and secure the energy he was using in Power Fighters 2 and it's confirmed canon that he needed Bass' help. Even if we scale Mega Man to Duo fully, he has better in the form of Sunstar scaling who has better feats than Duo anyways (however Sunstar's dying explosion doesn't scale to any of the classic series characters)
IMO it goes Rock Man Shadow > Duo >= King > Proto Man > Evil Energy >= Mega Man > Bass > Sunstar
Rock Man Shadow required Mega Man and Bass to double team him for his defeat though they partially scale to him (he's baseline planet level of 57.3 zettatons as opposed to the rest who are small planet level/small planet+ of 3 zettatons - 37 zettatons)
I should also point out that the black hole in MMV creates a mass-energy explosion when Mega Man uses it, though I consider that an outlier since it would make Classic Megs large star level
IMO it goes Rock Man Shadow > Duo >= King > Proto Man > Evil Energy >= Mega Man > Bass > Sunstar
Rock Man Shadow required Mega Man and Bass to double team him for his defeat though they partially scale to him (he's baseline planet level of 57.3 zettatons as opposed to the rest who are small planet level/small planet+ of 3 zettatons - 37 zettatons)
I should also point out that the black hole in MMV creates a mass-energy explosion when Mega Man uses it, though I consider that an outlier since it would make Classic Megs large star level
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But Classic Megs would then be above his Counterpart as X is supposed to be what Rock isn't.
Ok then Classic. If that's what you say then basically, As we've already been stating, Base easily loses, I'm guessing due to inherent invincibility (it blocks whatever is below that level until the force of something is above what that durability can withstand, meaning it "no sells" for those who are wondering what I mean by invincibility). Sonic should win the second and third battles.
Ok then Classic. If that's what you say then basically, As we've already been stating, Base easily loses, I'm guessing due to inherent invincibility (it blocks whatever is below that level until the force of something is above what that durability can withstand, meaning it "no sells" for those who are wondering what I mean by invincibility). Sonic should win the second and third battles.
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To be fair X still has a 3.5 Foe feat so he would still be above Classic Mega Man (the black hole feat from MMV is worth 0.5 Foe, and Sunstar's self destruct was worth about 30 tenatons which is small star level) but he didn't reach that level until X8 legitimately (possibly X3 depending on how seriously you take Gravity Beetle's black hole collapsing feats, but considering they came out higher than Lumine's star bust.... eh)
Darkspine should win with rankings here, there seems to be some contention on Super Sonic so I would go with just closing the topic before it gets heated and listing one scenario as a win for Sonic, one for Mega Man, and the others as inconclusive
Darkspine should win with rankings here, there seems to be some contention on Super Sonic so I would go with just closing the topic before it gets heated and listing one scenario as a win for Sonic, one for Mega Man, and the others as inconclusive
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There shouldn't be much contention with Super Sonic though, he truly is invincible up to a certain point of damage, and I don't know if you've heard about it, but Sonic's getting major upgrades in just his base level (Continent Level Destructive Potential, you already knew he was FTL, and Possibly Planet Level Durability at the least).
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Guys Don't forget that Mephelis killed Sonic with an energy beam in Sonic 06, maybe a good Megabuster should do it
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No that was either PIS or Sonic was caught of guard so he wasn't ready at all for thatSuper Saviant 5 said:
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You mean me or SS5? If you mean me I just said he was caught off guard like Goku and the game insane sooo there can be inconsistencies but true mephilis is as strong as Sonic and Shadow just i prefer comparing with other games not Sonic 06 as it became out of continuity by erasing solarisDavy0 said:
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yep he is an a**Davy0 said:
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