Character with vastly more AP/Durabilty vs Character with vastly more Speed

[LoudCloud]

This is a dilema I've been thinking about for a while now. Who would you say would win in a fight:

A character who has vastly superior AP and Durability or a character who has vastly superior Speed (whether it's travel, combat, reflex etc.) if they were to fight each other?

It's a difficult dilema because the Power character would be too durable for the Speed character to harm, but the Speed character would be too fast for the Power character to land a hit on.

Imply there are no hax or any other obvious attributes that would make those stats irrelevant.

 

[LoudCloud]

My own opinion is that this can go 3 main ways:

1. The Speed character would eventually tire out from dodging attacks, which would give the Power character the opportunity to one-shot them.

2. The Power character would eventually tire out from attempting to hit the Speed character. This might theoretically reduce their durability enough to allow the Speed character to harm them. But this would heavily depend on how far the gap is and how the Power character "works" (eg. characters with a very finite source of energy, like Ki, would become signficantly weaker once tired).

3. The Power character has some sort of attack with a wide range or radius (eg. giant explosion, shockwave etc.) that would hit the Speed character regardless of how fast their reflexes are. Characters with very good travel speed might be able to avoid this easier but the same principle could still apply.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

This is basically the exactly reason that "inconclusive" is used outside of equal power or hax. It could end in one tiring out, but there are a lot of factors that could go into that, so it is much safer to go with inconclusive. Trying to get a winner in that scenario will be, for the most part, conjecture.

 

[Gargoyle_1]

As long as you have a very high speed and Hax advantage your fine

 

[Reppuzan]

Such a match would generally end up as inconclusive for the reasons you've listed.

As a result, we generally try to avoid such matches with our Tiering System, or else we'd have long lists of inconclusive matches under a bunch of character profiles.

 

[LoudCloud]

True but I don't see how scenario 1 (speed character becoming tired and power character one-shotting them) isn't the most likely one.

 

[Nico-v11]

I would love for this to be evaluated a little more. I remember my Toph vs Steve (Minecraft) being closed for being a stomp for the above reasons. I still don't know who would win though :'(

 

[Reppuzan]

@LoudCloud

It depends on the stamina of both characters. Trishula Anchor can tear apart space-time to simulate Infinite speed, but since she's an android whose Perpetual Gear generates an infinite amount of energy, she will never tire even if she runs into someone she can't defeat with her Spatial Manipulation powers (i.e. a member of the Royal Knights like Omnimo). There's no one-size-fits-all ruling on this, we just have to evaluate things on a case by case basis.

 

[LoudCloud]

Well yeah, obviously, but I'm saying that if their stamina is similar it's far more likely for a Speed character to become vunerable once they become tired than it is for a Power character to become vunerable once they become tired. Speed is directly linked to your stamina; once you become too tired your speed becomes far inferior. But Durability is not linked to stamina quite the same way; you can become tired but you durabilty might still be the same tier.

 

[Reppuzan]

@LoudCloud

But at the same time, who's to say that the more durable character doesn't tire out first? They can swing all day long while the speedy character acts like they're dodging the movements of a statue.

We cannot generalize this.

 

[LoudCloud]

Even if the durable character becomes tired first they still have their high durability to rely on. The speed character meanwhile will progressively get slower the more tired they are. In this scenario the Speed character would just be avoiding the inevitable (getting hit by the Power character when they get the chance), whereas the Power character has nothing to avoid as their durabilty is likely to be kept similar throughout.

Yeah, this very much depends on the characters, their stamina gap and how they work (eg. DBZ characters would drop their durabilty significantly once they tire enough and run out of Ki). But I'm saying in most scenarios (where their stamina is similar and there are no specific hax or attributes that change the usual dynamic) this would be the outcome.

 

[LoudCloud]

Speed characters also have the constant pressure of avoiding the Power character's attacks, while the Power character can pretty much take the fight as casually as they want since they won't be in any real danger (most of the time). So the average Speed character will eventually have to tire out whereas the Power character can take things at their own pace.

 

[Reppuzan]

@LoudCloud

The only problem with this is the fact that our Versus Thread rules prevent these kinds of threads in which one character has no way of winning, so this is a pretty moot point to argue.

 

[LoudCloud]

Fair enough I guess, but I think figuring out how their stamina would play out is part of the debate. Guess it depends on the match-up.

 

[Reppuzan]

@LoudCloud

It also doesn't help that if you're so much faster than another character, you don't need to necessarily try to dodge their attacks. Someone who's MFTL+ will not have to exert themselves to perceive and waltz around someone in the lower end of FTL.

 

[LoudCloud]

It would probably takes weeks but eventually they'd have to get hit. It sounds like a very boring, tedious fight but it comes down to the fact one of the characters has no means of killing the other so eventually the Power character has to land a hit. Even if it takes weeks, even if it's a lucky shot, it's the only possibility (unless we count the Power character getting fatigued enough to lower their durability which is unlikely depending on the durability gap).

 

[Reppuzan]

@LoudCloud

That's not even a certainty. In the amount of time it takes for a FTL character to throw a punch, a Massively FTL+ character can probably take a nap, go eat something, and come back. The difference in speed is just that great.

 

[LoudCloud]

Yes, but the MFTL+ has no way to end the fight. They're stuck in this fight forever until they die. So unless one of them eventually dies of old age (always a possibility), the FTL would have to land a hit at some point in time. It could be because the MFTL+ gets tired or sleepy, but the FTL has to hit the MFTL+ for the fight to conclude. The FTL is the only one strong enough to end it.

 

[SomebodyData]

Too bad he isn't the one fast enough to end it. Loud, the only way he would eventually manage to slip up would be when the MFTL+ decides its a good idea to stand still for days, which is obviously not going to happen.

 

[Davidsteel1]

Ummm sorry isn't the argument u guys are having now a perfect example of why "inconclusive" is a choice?

 

[Perilouss]

My own opinion is that this can go 3 main ways:

1. The Speed character would eventually tire out from dodging attacks, which would give the Power character the opportunity to one-shot them.

If the speed gap is really so large, e.g. MHS and subsonic, theres no way the MHS character will tire out from dodging the subsonic character's attacks, he will barely even need to pay attention.

 

[Reppuzan]

@LoudCloud

As SomebodyData said, the speed difference is just way too ridiculous for your hypothetical scenario to work. A MFTL+ character can dodge attacks from a FTL character effortlessly and can just run off and do whatever they want for a few minutes (which could be hours or more from their perspective) and come back before the latter realizes what's happening.

 

[LoudCloud]

I'm saying it has to happen EVENTUALLY. It could takes millions of years (implying the characters don't age) but the only way the fight can end without some exterior force interviening is if the MFTL+ gets hit. It could be for whatever stupid or unlikely reason, but getting hit has to happen eventually.

Heck, surely the MFTL+ would need sleep at some point, in which case the slower character could attack them.

 

[SomebodyData]

No it doesn't.

Yes, but because of the speed advantage, he could simply move far away from him, far enough to go to sleep without worry.

 

[Nico-v11]

That's of course assuming that the speedster's sleep is also quick and not like normal real life sleep

 

[Perilouss]

Also with the speedsters reactions he should be able to react to any threat posed from the AP guy and wake up instantly

 

[LoudCloud]

This metaphorical fight can only end when there is a victor. Otherwise it just keeps going on. Putting aging, food and other necessities aside, this fight would go on UNTIL the Power character wins. If you wait for infinity for something to happen, sooner or later it will happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Loud I'm sorry but going on the theorem u linked to wouldn't it mean that the speedier also has a chance of winning if this goes on infinitely?

 

[LoudCloud]

The speedier character doesn't have the means to ever physically harm or kill the Power character (their durability is too high. For example, Planet-level durabilty vs the Speed character's Wall-level AP). Certain exterior forces could allow the Speed character to do so but outside help is against the site rules for a VS battle (as we're only comparing these characters VS each other). Meanwhile, the Power character has the means to kill the Speed character (For example, Planet-level AP vs the Speed character's Wall-level durabilty). The only thing that stops them is the Speed character's superior maneuverabilty, which would have to eventually give way whether due to fatigue, having to sleep, or some random mistake they make.

 

[Nico-v11]

Looking at it that way then yes the speedster can only lose. Without considering the environment and other abilities

 

[LoudCloud]

Yeah, pretty much my point.

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Loud and the monkey lacks the proper mental faculties to consciously type up Shakespeare's works but going by the theorem it can happen if it's allowed to go on infinitely. It's not a matter of ability here it's a matter of statistical probability, if the chances that the speedier character will hit the more powerful in the one spot that is very vulnerable is 10000000000000000:1 if they are allowed to go on infinitely then that will eventually happen wether he means to or not, at the same time if there is the chance that the stronger character can land a hit and they are allowed to go on infinitely then he also will eventually land a blow. Hence both characters do have a chance of winning (though I'd imagine this wouldn't apply to higher dimensional beings).

 

[Akumura]

If the reasoning for the power character winning is that after an indefinite amount of time, the power character eventually will catch up to the vastly higher speed character, then can't you consider the reverse? The speed character can make an infinite amount of small hits that eventually add up, just like how a sufficiently large number of pipe bombs can technically level a city.

 

[Davidsteel1]

^ almost exactly my point

 

[LoudCloud]

I don't see how Wall-level AP hits would eventually add up to harm a Planet-level being, but sure?

My original point though was if both character were actively trying to kill each other. The Speed character would eventualy fatigue from unsucessful attacks and leave themselves vunerable, whereas the Power character doesn't have this risk.

 

[Reppuzan]

@LoudCloud

Conversely, the durable character takes constant swings at the speedy character and tires themselves out. You seem to be under the assumption that being immensely faster also means you tire more quickly, when the opposite can be equally true.

There is no one way of interpreting this scenario as there are too many unknowns to deal with.

 

[LoudCloud]

But a tired Power character is still durable enough to not be killed (provided the gap is big enough). A tired speed character can always be tired enough to no longer be fast enough to dodge attacks.

Compare a fatigued human in terms of speed and durabilty. Their speed can decrease so much as they tire that they can no longer move. But even if they are so tired they fall unconsious, their durabilty would always be enough to protect them from, say, a fly.

A being can be so tired that even a snail is able to go faster than them. But (provided they are around human level or higher) never tired enough that the snail can bypass their durabilty.

 

[Reppuzan]

@LoudCloud

You seem to ignore the notion that the super-durable character could be so tired that they would be completely unable to move and thus leaving the speedy character to walk away.

There's no single answer to his since we've left so many variables in the air.

Given that this will be an endless loop and I've completely lost interest in arguing the same points over and over, I'm closing this.