Chaos Manipulation Overhaul

[Quibster]

Permission to move this was granted by @Damage3245 (thanks again).

Please review the sandbox here, please feel free to discuss the proposed update to the page.

(For your convenience, the current Chaos Manipulation page is here.)

I would also like to engage in some discussion regarding the ability and update/adjust, as needed for some general refinement, and elaboration on current precedent regarding the ability. The sandbox is intended to be formatted similar to the Holy Manipulation page. I would also like to address some associated abilities such as Primordial Chaos, and actually codifying stuff like Entropy, as outlined in the sandbox.

Agree: Antvasma, DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, Qawsedf234, ActuallySpaceMan42, GarrixianXD, Theglassman12

Disagree:

Neutral: Ultima_Reality

 

[Theglassman12]

The update looks fine, though the whole “being erased” part I’m a bit unsure. Given the whole common trope on how the beginning of everything they usually refer to chaos, that sounds more like a reversion back to the base roots more than erasing everything from existence.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Glad this is happening. Run into so many entropy-based abilities but never had a proper power to assign to them.

 

[Arkenis]

Existence Erasure: The concept of primordial chaos can be applied to negate the very notion of existence itself by converting something back to a formless, chaotic state. This can also be applied by increasing entropy to the point where all matter and energy are indistinguishable and become effectively "erased".

How is this not a form of matter manip into nep?

 

[Quibster]

making a response, asking that folks hold their horses for now

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright.

 

[Quibster]

Getting my nerd glasses on for this.

To preface this, manipulating entropy involves influencing how a system's energy and matter are distributed and arranged, thereby affecting its disorder or randomness. This is distinct from directly altering physical properties through abilities like Matter Manipulation. Entropy, in this case, operates through the inherently chaotic aspects of thermodynamic law (e.g., the gradual increase in disorder and decay of matter and energy over time).

According to the First Law of Thermodynamics, energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. This principle applies to entropy in the sense that entropy itself is a measure of the distribution and transformation of energy within a system. Controlling entropy involves managing how a system's energy and matter are distributed, rather than directly altering their physical properties. For those who aren't science-savvy I'll try to explain this in play as best I can;

Imagine you have a perfectly organized Rubik's Cube with each face showing only one color. This state represents low entropy because the arrangement is highly ordered and there are only a few ways to achieve this specific configuration.

If you start to randomly twist and turn the faces of the Rubik's Cube, the colors on each face become mixed. As the cube becomes more scrambled, the number of possible configurations increases, which represents a higher entropy state because there is greater disorder. As with the case of a Rubiks Cube, this can be presented as disorder of information in a complex structure.

The Rubik's Cube itself (its mass, volume, and shape) doesn't change, as these are its physical properties. However, the entropy of the system (the Rubik's Cube) increases as the arrangement of colors becomes more disordered. Entropy here is a measure of the disorder or randomness of the system's configuration, not a physical property of the cube.

To put it another way, the physical properties of the cube (such as its mass and dimensions) remain constant, but the entropy changes depending on how the colors are arranged. When the cube is fully solved, it has low entropy. When it is scrambled, it has high entropy.

The update looks fine, though the whole “being erased” part I’m a bit unsure. Given the whole common trope on how the beginning of everything they usually refer to chaos, that sounds more like a reversion back to the base roots more than erasing everything from existence.

Rewritten for clarity. The new justification now focuses specifically on accelerating entropy to reach an otherwise natural state of static equilibrium, which is fundamentally different from reversion. While reversion simplifies a system to a less complex state, increasing entropy accelerates the gradual evolution of a system from higher to lower states of complexity.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that in any natural process, entropy tends to increase, leading to greater molecular dispersion and randomness. This law explains how the universe's entropy is perpetually increasing, as entropy of an isolated system will tend to increase over time, leading to greater disorder and randomness.

When entropy is maximized, a system reaches a state of maximum disorder and randomness where no usable energy remains to perform work. This condition is known as thermodynamic equilibrium. In this state, all energy is uniformly distributed, and no gradients exist to drive any processes or changes. This is often referred to as the "heat death" of the universe, where all complex structures and distinctions cease to exist, resulting in an eventual homogeneous and inert state.

 

[Arkenis]

resulting in an eventual homogeneous and inert state.

From what I’m understanding this is less ee and just the “end” of energy in the universe through a long process. This seems more like physics than ee. Is there any science work that describes heat death as a literal erasure?

 

[Quibster]

From what I’m understanding this is less ee and just the “end” of energy in the universe through a long process.

This is a correct assessment. Also, EE is also no longer being used in the sandbox. I realized that the way EE is indexed on the site contradicts the fundamental concept of entropy. I'll explain:

This seems more like physics than ee. Is there any science work that describes heat death as a literal erasure?

With how the site indexes EE? No. Reason being that the First Law of Thermydynamics law states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. Thus, the idea of literal "erasure" contradicts this law because matter and energy cannot be completely annihilated but only transformed or dispersed. It's more analogous to Deconstruction in the case of carbon-based life forms; because what remains is essentially a sparse distribution of particles and photons when your entropy is maximized. Though, the blanket effect should be Physics Manipulation when it comes to the entropy of everything.

Heat death refers to a state in which all stars have burned out, black holes have evaporated, and the universe is reduced to a thin soup of particles. No energy gradients exist to sustain processes that can increase entropy because thermal equilibrium has been reached, signifying that entropy in the system (e.g., target) is maximized. It's a state of stasis, where the system is effectively "stopped" in its final configuration.

Edit: TL;DR: Increasing entropy accelerates the natural process of decay, leading to a more disordered and simpler state. The Second Law of Thermodynamics also implies this as well.

 

[Theglassman12]

Looks better now.

 

[Quibster]

Current tally is updated

If I misinterpreted a comment as a vote or missed a vote lemme know

 

[GarrixianXD]

Users beyond the constraints of conventional reality may embody raw chaos and evil. Through the presence of chaos or evil within the target, these users are capable of directly affecting the soul of the target and can ignore conventional durability and protections.

I have an issue with this. Why should the presence of chaos or evil being part of the target should affect their soul? Soul Manipulation is listed as a possible use for Unholy Manipulation because of innate essence in them that attributes to unholiness, but not unholiness itself, and I also question why should we consider unholy souls being embodies of unholiness itself at default.

Everything else is fine at glance.

 

[Quibster]

I have an issue with this. Why should the presence of chaos or evil being part of the target should affect their soul? Soul Manipulation is listed as a possible use for Unholy Manipulation because of innate essence in them that attributes to unholiness, but not unholiness itself, and I also question why should we consider unholy souls being embodies of unholiness itself at default.

In some works, Chaos is synonymous with concepts like Evil. Therefore, the reasoning was "in some verses, to control chaos is to also control the evil, and therefore Unholy Manipulation would make sense under possible uses". It's a trope in a sense.

You do raise a fair point however. Not all verses follow this dynamic and are significantly older than most on this site. In terms of standards, I was under the impression that Unholy Manipulation would be appropriate because of Chaos being blatantly linked/equivalent to "evil" across verses.

I wouldn't mind removing it personally. Would you prefer I do that, or would you be interested in helping author a different justification? Either way, the main reasoning for this update was codifying Entropy.

Edit: For a more direct answer, I had thought "evil = chaos in some verses because trope" would allow for Unholy Manip's justification by default for Soul Manipulation and Dura Negation. If this isn't a proper justification, then I'll remove it.

 

[GarrixianXD]

In some works, Chaos is synonymous with concepts like Evil. Therefore, the reasoning was "in some verses, to control chaos is to also control the evil, and therefore Unholy Manipulation would make sense under possible uses". It's a trope in a sense.

You do raise a fair point however. Not all verses follow this dynamic and are significantly older than most on this site. In terms of standards, I was under the impression that Unholy Manipulation would be appropriate because of Chaos being blatantly linked/equivalent to "evil" across verses.

I wouldn't mind removing it personally. Would you prefer I do that, or would you be interested in helping author a different justification? Either way, the main reasoning for this update was codifying Entropy.

Edit: For a more direct answer, I had thought "evil = chaos in some verses because trope" would allow for Unholy Manip's justification by default for Soul Manipulation and Dura Negation. If this isn't a proper justification, then I'll remove it.

I have yet to come up with a different interpretation but I’d personally remove Soul Manipulation as a default for that Unholy Manipulation attributive possible use, yeah. Disorder itself rather means messy stuff so it doesn’t exactly correlate with evil, so I can perhaps also agree with removing the Unholy Manipulation as a possible use as a whole. Though, there’s no rush, I’d also like to hear what others think.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

A slight question, but if Chaos is shown to predate the universe and order and opposes existence, can we assume it's a void?

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Mr. Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath @Dereck03 @Planck69

What do you think about this?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I'm indifferent. Don't particularly like the page existing to begin with, given how vaguely defined "Chaos" is, so this obviously means I'm not too keen on the updates either. But that's a topic for a different thread, so, put me on neutral.

 

[Quibster]

A slight question, but if Chaos is shown to predate the universe and order and opposes existence, can we assume it's a void?

Can you elaborate?

 

[Quibster]

I'm indifferent. Don't particularly like the page existing to begin with, given how vaguely defined "Chaos" is, so this obviously means I'm not too keen on the updates either. But that's a topic for a different thread, so, put me on neutral.

Fair enough.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm indifferent. Don't particularly like the page existing to begin with, given how vaguely defined "Chaos" is, so this obviously means I'm not too keen on the updates either. But that's a topic for a different thread, so, put me on neutral.

I personally agree about that Chaos is a very vague term, so it might be better to delete the page rather than overcomplicate it by turning it into a mixture of other powers.

 

[Quibster]

I personally agree about that Chaos is a very vague term, so it might be better to delete the page rather than overcomplicate it by turning it into a mixture of other powers.

If this is being suggested now, would it be better to move Entropy to the Physics Manipulation page instead?

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Can you elaborate?

Chaos predates the universe's creation as well as order, and the destroyed state of the Universe is considered Chaos.

Can we assume it's a void by this context?
Edit: by destroying I mean ceasing, just to make it a bit more clear.

 

[Deagonx]

Predating the universe doesn't make it a void necessarily.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Predating the universe doesn't make it a void necessarily.

Yeah, but from my understanding fiction treats a Realm of Chaos to be the opposite of existence, i.e it predates all of creation and the state of all of creation ceasing is considered Chaos.

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah, but from my understanding fiction treats a Realm of Chaos to be the opposite of existence, i.e it predates all of creation and the state of all of creation ceasing is considered Chaos.

It would depend on what the scans actually say about chaos in the verse you're referring to. However, this isn't really the place for that kind of discussion.

 

[Firestorm808]

From what I'm reading on the super power wiki, it's basically a limited form of Reality Warping.

 

[GarrixianXD]

If this is being suggested now, would it be better to move Entropy to the Physics Manipulation page instead?

Entropy is a form of disorder so it can fall under the category of Chaos manipulation. Though, physics manipulation is also its parent ability, yeah. But I don’t think the latter is better than the former.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally agree about that Chaos is a very vague term, so it might be better to delete the page rather than overcomplicate it by turning it into a mixture of other powers.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @DarkGrath

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Executor_N0]

@Executor_N0

What do you think that we should do here?

Specific undefined terms that can just easily be placed under more direct well-defined ones aren't worth keeping in my opinion. I see power and abilities as being more "broad abilities that represent common ability tropes, but still under the same well-defined umbrella term", basically the same reason why I wasn't fine with pages like Hellfire manipulation (And to be honest, Ectoplasm Manipulation to some extent).

 

[Quibster]

From what I'm reading on the super power wiki, it's basically a limited form of Reality Warping.

Yeah it's more or less a variation of it. "To control the chaotic forces of the universe", would be a more accurate, going off that page.

It would depend on what the scans actually say about chaos in the verse you're referring to. However, this isn't really the place for that kind of discussion.

Agreed. I think a verse with Chaos being contextualized would put emphasis on whether or not there's Void Manipulation at play, going off of descriptors/character explanations, et cetera. The idea of a blanket "All Chaos Manipulation is a form of Void Manipulation" doesn't sit well with me on an indexing end personally. Just my two cents.

Specific undefined terms that can just easily be placed under more direct well-defined ones aren't worth keeping in my opinion. I see power and abilities as being more "broad abilities that represent common ability tropes, but still under the same well-defined umbrella term", basically the same reason why I wasn't fine with pages like Hellfire manipulation (And to be honest, Ectoplasm Manipulation to some extent).

To be fair, there are several ability pages that do just that. The first ones that come to mind are Fate Manipulation and Toon Force. You could argue that those abilities are even more esoteric than something like Chaos.

Entropy is a form of disorder so it can fall under the category of Chaos manipulation. Though, physics manipulation is also its parent ability, yeah. But I don’t think the latter is better than the former.

Understood

 

[Quibster]

The sandbox has been updated with Unholy Manipulation being removed under "Possible Uses".

 

[Antvasima]

To be fair, there are several ability pages that do just that. The first ones that come to mind are Fate Manipulation and Toon Force. You could argue that those abilities are even more esoteric than something like Chaos.

Those two examples seem much more distinct, defined, and specific to me than chaos manipulation.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[Quibster]

Took a break from the site for most of this month, so apologies for the delays. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread over the next few days.

After rereading the discussion, it seems to me that there are two general ideas at play:

A) There is a shared concern regarding the vagueness of the ability. The concept is too abstract and could lead to issues by combining various other powers. Therefore, we should reconsider the need for the page.
B) The page should be revised to emphasize a more scientific understanding of chaos, via incorporating concepts like entropy and thermodynamics instead.

Would it be possible for the staff to take some time to discuss what the best course of action might be from here? I also want to put emphasis on that Entropy is the primary reason why this Staff Thread exists; and to properly index it on this site. Chaos Manipulation or not, I would personally like to see it codified.

 

[Theglassman12]

I'm personally fine with chaos manipulation being better elaborated than the page being deleted.

 

[Antvasima]

After rereading the draft page, I do not mind if we better define chaos manipulation as controlling unpredictability, but I do not think that we should include corruption as a version of the ability (it is redundant, given our existing page for this, and also seems inappropriately applied), and am somewhat uncertain about entropy manipulation being included. I also do not think that we should inherently define it as associated with evil. Except for that I do not currently particularly mind the suggested revision.

 

[Quibster]

The sandbox page has been updated to align with Ant's proposed change of the ability. New users under this page may be required, alongside new Limitations. Open to feedback for the time being and there's still room for improvement.

It's been quite a busy month for me, apologies once again for the delays here.

Edit: I'm also looking to improve terminology and descriptors on the page. Staff input here would be most valuable.

 

[Arkenis]

The sandbox page has been updated to align with Ant's proposed change of the ability. New users under this page may be required, alongside new Limitations. Open to feedback for the time being and there's still room for improvement.

It's been quite a busy month for me, apologies once again for the delays here.

Well Asura from Soul Eater should be there, though its not on his profile right now, his Madness of Fear causes the order of the world become undone.

 

[Antvasima]

After rereading the draft page, I do not mind if we better define chaos manipulation as controlling unpredictability, but I do not think that we should include corruption as a version of the ability (it is redundant, given our existing page for this, and also seems inappropriately applied), and am somewhat uncertain about entropy manipulation being included. I also do not think that we should inherently define it as associated with evil. Except for that I do not currently particularly mind the suggested revision.

The sandbox page has been updated to align with Ant's proposed change of the ability. New users under this page may be required, alongside new Limitations. Open to feedback for the time being and there's still room for improvement.

It's been quite a busy month for me, apologies once again for the delays here.

Edit: I'm also looking to improve terminology and descriptors on the page. Staff input here would be most valuable.

I think that your new draft seems sufficiently good to apply.

Quibster/ChaosRevision

vsbattles.fandom.com

@DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr. Bambu @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @DarkGrath @Dereck03 @Planck69

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do the rest of you think?

I think the page is a good expansion over the current one in terms of ability description. Though the limitations section would need to be filled out first (having issues affecting Order, user loses control of themselves, etc).