Chaos (Castlevania) vs Arale (DBF)

[PainKiller07]

Plot Device vs Concept of Chaos
Both in the strongest version
Speed Equal
SBA

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Embodiment & Root of Chaos and Evil:
Android:
Incon:

 

[Shmooply]

I think this might actually tear apart the community.

 

[Delta333]

Following, Chaos has AE type 1 based on type 1 concept so can Arale touch him?

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I don’t remember dragon ball having conceptual manipulation so no

 

[Theglassman12]

So what’s stopping Chaos from existing to kill Arale in 30+ different ways? Because I don’t see her negate its immortalities or regeneration, or even resist all of its passives.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

This is a stomp I’d see any point in continuing.

 

[Undylan]

Stomp

 

[Delta333]

iirc she has some sort of passive tier 1 plot hax or sth like that, whether it helps or not idk.

 

[Quantu]

iirc she has some sort of passive tier 1 plot hax or sth like that, whether it helps or not idk.

That definitely sounds like it'd help.

 

[Theglassman12]

How exactly is it tier 1 again? Because the justification for it hardly shows anything about warping an entire 5-D world, on top of it being hardly much different to how Castlevania’s plot hax works where they can break out of the fiction they reside in and enter the real world.

 

[Delta333]

Low Complex Multiverse level with Plot Manipulation (Arale's plot prowess is akin to that of Toriyama's[5]. Meaning she can create, manipulate, and destroy entire series. Which contains 4D structures, such as multiple timelines[6]. She's also able to manipulate 5D worlds and go beyond that realm's 4th wall[7])

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

How exactly is it tier 1 again? Because the justification for it hardly shows anything about warping an entire 5-D world, on top of it being hardly much different to how Castlevania’s plot hax works where they can break out of the fiction they reside in and enter the real world.

#.1

Apart from Multiple scans that prove DB cosmology scales to Dr. Slump
Dr. Slump itself has its own 4-D Multiverse, It has a proven in-verse that their exists a Universe which additionally provide context on the inclusion of the existence of the Past and Future of the Space-Time Continuum and its complete with its own set of multiple alternate timelines separate from Dragon Ball

The Universe and the Alternative Timelines are all apart of the Dr. Slump Reality making the Dr. Slump Reality a 4-D multiverse (even more so once you add DB cosmology to it)
And the Author World sees all that as Literal Fiction, Flat Drawings on Pages and a Fictional Series

Thats why the Author World is 5-D.
This was confirmed by Multiple staff and consultants like Pain to 12 and Ultima.
Ontological Qualitative Superiority. And Arale’s Plot Manipulation scales to that of Author Avatars (5-D Beings) who can Hax each other and manipulate the world (which is 5-D) in their own ways using plot hax

#2.
Castlevania can’t use that kind of argument because their is no R>F present

the Grimoire world is stated to be just as real as the real world so clearly no R>F is present there.

and no part of Castlevania’s cosmological structure treats a 4-D cosmology as Literal Fiction.

If Castlevania can’t qualify for Tier 1, don’t blame Dr Slump for it

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

iirc she has some sort of passive tier 1 plot hax or sth like that, whether it helps or not idk.

This is kinda sus, may I ask, was your intention behind this CTR to make a downgrade thread?.
Don't know....just saying, I heard rumors.

IIRC you wanted to know if Arale's Hax would work on CM type 1?, Hmmm...........

 

[Lynieryz]

This is kinda sus, may I ask, was your intention behind this CTR to make a downgrade thread?.
Don't know....just saying, I heard rumors.

IIRC you wanted to know if Arale's Hax would work on CM type 1?, Hmmm...........

db fans are so weird.

 

[TauanVictor]

Arale stomps through passive 5-D Plot Hax.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

This is kinda sus, may I ask, was your intention behind this CTR to make a downgrade thread?.
Don't know....just saying, I heard rumors.

IIRC you wanted to know if Arale's Hax would work on CM type 1?, Hmmm...........

Can arale's superior D hax affect Chaos? Even with the AE?

Anyway, I think this is a stomp, both for Chaos and Arale. I think, but I could be wrong.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

@God900 i think this thread should be closed

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

@God900 i think this thread should be closed

Yes, ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶o̶r̶g̶a̶n̶i̶z̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶c̶e̶r̶t̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶
̶D̶i̶s̶c̶o̶r̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶o̶r̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶o̶w̶n̶g̶r̶a̶d̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶̶A̶r̶a̶l̶e̶

No cap

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

db fans are so weird.

Trust me you don't know story behind the making of this match. All started in Discord.

I know certain user knows what I'm talking about. It's not the OP, it's someone else behind this who started it, who also commented in this thread

 

[Delta333]

This is kinda sus, may I ask, was your intention behind this CTR to make a downgrade thread?.
Don't know....just saying, I heard rumors.

IIRC you wanted to know if Arale's Hax would work on CM type 1?, Hmmm...........

...CRT what?

 

[Ss3micah]

Following, Chaos has AE type 1 based on type 1 concept so can Arale touch him?

State of Being vs Higher D Hax

Simple Question Let’s say that you have a Tier 10 up to Tier 2 (3-D up to 4-D) being with AE Type 1. They could be a conceptual abstract, information abstract, narrative abstract, whatever If a Tier 1 Hax completely nukes the mathematical dimensional plane of existence they reside on (in this...

vsbattles.com

 

[Delta333]

State of Being vs Higher D Hax

Simple Question Let’s say that you have a Tier 10 up to Tier 2 (3-D up to 4-D) being with AE Type 1. They could be a conceptual abstract, information abstract, narrative abstract, whatever If a Tier 1 Hax completely nukes the mathematical dimensional plane of existence they reside on (in this...

vsbattles.com

ok thanks

 

[Theglassman12]

@God900 thats literally not what’s stated about the Grimoire world, it’s stated that magically speaking, the worlds are one and the same, with anyone worth a damn in Castlevania being able to use magic. The Grimoire worlds are still story books that the creatures of chaos breaks out into the real world with their chaos alone.

They treat Dracula’s castle as fiction with the grimoires, something that’s literally an entire world with its own flow of time so.

Either way how is Arale getting through Chaos’ passives? Because she doesn’t resist being erased on a conceptual level among other things.

 

[Ss3micah]

ok thanks

Yeah
So please do note that as Abstract, Immortal and Regenerative Chaos is....
Chaos still at most exists on the 4-D Plane of Reality
Nuke that and he has no place nor anyway to operate
I.E Permanent Incapacitation

Either way how is Arale getting through Chaos’ passives? Because she doesn’t resist being erased on a conceptual level among other things.

She would know that Concept Hax is dangerous due to Precognition and then just jump outta Range
She can just travel to the Author World where she would be entirely outta range of Chaos but still able to affect chaos herself and then just nuke the entire 4-D plane along with Chaos

 

[Delta333]

Yeah
So please do note that as Abstract, Immortal and Regenerative Chaos is....
Chaos still at most exists on the 4-D Plane of Reality
Nuke that and he has no place nor anyway to operate
I.E Permanent Incapacitation

Actually I'm not sure whether nuking reality still works for concept that predates reality like Chaos or not, just ask on DT's wall about it anyways.

 

[Shmooply]

She would know that Concept Hax is dangerous due to Precognition and then just jump outta Range

How exactly would she be able to precog and jump away from something that's instant?

 

[Ss3micah]

Actually I'm not sure whether nuking reality still works for concept that predates reality like Chaos or not, just ask on DT's wall about it anyways.

According to DT (in another thread)... unless the Concept has feats of operating after the Dimensional Plane of existence that it resides on has been erased..... or can act in a higher plain of existence then that means it gets Incapped

Predating Reality =/= Predating the establishments of dimensional plateaus as far as Im aware
Might need to get DT on this for real but AFAIK, Concepts are still restricted by dimensionality so nuking the dimensional plane should do the trick

How exactly would she be able to precog and jump away from something that's instant?

Void Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), Time Manipulation, Gravity Manipulation, Chaos Manipulation, Pain Manipulation, Dimensional Manipulation and Forced Duplication (The castle's Void and Chaos powers can forcefully duplicate one's being and conceptually removed from concepts of Pain, Time, and Existence, affect Gravity related limitations, and separate them into numerous planes at once. Chaos as a Concept is the polar opposite to God, who exists prior to the creation of all reality. Can also warp the gravity inside the castle)

I have a TERRIBLE imagination when it comes to books so.........................can you describe to me how this is instant?
Like what is instant? What like instantly be happening here?

And in the case that it's instant then yeah arale probably gets screwed...... (I could argue otherwise with passive plot hax)
But then Type 8 immortality is triggered (operates at a range chaos cant reach to negate and chaos would not be able to detect it anyways)
She revives in the Author World and just kills Chaos anyones by nuking the 4-D plain

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Either way how is Arale getting through Chaos’ passives?

Arale seems to resist most passives, but Chaos's passives are 4D, however I think some of Arale's resistances are 5D because of Tori, I guess? I'm not very experienced in the Art, especially when it involves Heroes.

Also, she has her own 5D passive hax which is plot manipulation + stuff. And from what I saw above, the upper D hax kind of ignores the AE.

Because she doesn’t resist being erased on a conceptual level among other things.

It is listed that she is resistant to Tori's erasure of existence. So I think this is resistance to EE 5D, I don't know if a EE 4D but which is conceptual is stronger.

 

[Ss3micah]

It is listed that she is resistant to Tori's erasure of existence. So I think this is resistance to EE 5D, I don't know if a EE 4D but which is conceptual is stronger.

Nah Fam
Concept Hax =/= Plot Hax

Arale CAN resist plot erasure but not Concept Erasure
So concept erasure would do her in

 

[Delta333]

Assuming that erasing dimensional plane of existence can work, does Arale do that in character as first move?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Nah Fam
Concept Hax =/= Plot Hax

Arale CAN resist plot erasure but not Concept Erasure
So concept erasure would do her in

So, if a character resists a 5D EE but is non-conceptual, can they be affected by a lower dimensional EE that is conceptual?

 

[Ss3micah]

Assuming that erasing dimensional plane of existence can work, does Arale do that in character as first move?

She's one of those generic game characters who only does whatever the player wants her to do......
So a first move is REALLY hard to pin-point.....

But given she has Towa's Intelligence and Malicious intent inside her. If this INSTANT Conceptual Manipulation or whatever erases/destroys her then Immortal 8 gets triggered and with it having range that Chaos cant bridge. She has Precognition to show her everything she would try that would fail and what would succeed and given Chaos is AE1, it wont be long till she realizes most of her arsenal wont work and that she would have to resort to dimensional plane nuking....

And even now I still have no idea what Chaos' Concept hax would actually do......

So, if a character resists a 5D EE but is non-conceptual, can they be affected by a lower dimensional EE that is conceptual?

Actually now that I think about it... I may need to do a Q and A on that one
Cause Im not entirely sure if a 4-D Concept EE would work against someone with a 5-D Plot EE resistance

Its a 50/50 for me because in that case you have the abstractness but lack the potency

 

[Phsccarvalho]

She's one of those generic game characters who only does whatever the player wants her to do......
So a first move is REALLY hard to pin-point.....

But given she has Towa's Intelligence and Malicious intent inside her. If this INSTANT Conceptual Manipulation or whatever erases/destroys her then Immortal 8 gets triggered and with it having range that Chaos cant bridge. She has Precognition to show her everything she would try that would fail and what would succeed and given Chaos is AE1, it wont be long till she realizes most of her arsenal wont work and that she would have to resort to dimensional plane nuking....

And even now I still have no idea what Chaos' Concept hax would actually do......


Actually now that I think about it... I may need to do a Q and A on that one
Cause Im not entirely sure if a 4-D Concept EE would work against someone with a 5-D Plot EE resistance

Its a 50/50 for me because in that case you have the abstractness but lack the potency

So I think you have to ask someone experienced in this matter.

 

[Ss3micah]

So I think you have to ask someone experienced in this matter.

Based on what I have seen and what I know
None of the fundamental hax (Plot, Conceptual, Information) are comparable to each other

So because you can resist one, you still cant resist the others
You regen from being erased by one, you cant regen from the others
So my guess is a conceptual EE, even thou 4-D, would still do arale in..... because she doesn't have resistance to conceptual resistances

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Based on what I have seen and what I know
None of the fundamental hax (Plot, Conceptual, Information) are comparable to each other

So because you can resist one, you still cant resist the others
You regen from being erased by one, you cant regen from the others
So my guess is a conceptual EE, even thou 4-D, would still do arale in..... because she doesn't have resistance to conceptual resistances

I think at least it's good to confirm.

 

[Delta333]

But given she has Towa's Intelligence and Malicious intent inside her. If this INSTANT Conceptual Manipulation or whatever erases/destroys her then Immortal 8 gets triggered and with it having range that Chaos cant bridge. She has Precognition to show her everything she would try that would fail and what would succeed and given Chaos is AE1, it wont be long till she realizes most of her arsenal wont work and that she would have to resort to dimensional plane nuking....

And even now I still have no idea what Chaos' Concept hax would actually do......

Chaos's concept hax can erase being from existence, which would require HGR to bring her back. And I assume that her precog works on acau 4 being?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ss3micah literally when was that ever the case for high godly regen beings? Nuking the entire plane doesn't mean shit for someone who comes back from literal nothingness. If Arale cannot neg Chaos' regen and immortalities it's not going to die or be incapacitated, simple as that.

Has she precogged a type 4 acausal being? Because type 4 renders you immune to any precognition unless the precog has feats of affecting type 4s.

Its instant in the sense that being anywhere near the magic it has is enough to take effect, and being conceptually erased will permanently end Arale as she has no high godly regen.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Has she precogged a type 4 acausal being? Because type 4 renders you immune to any precognition unless the precog has feats of affecting type 4s.

This Arale seems to be associated with things from Dragon Ball Heroes, in which demons have a higher degree of acausal of types 1 and 4. But I don't know if the pregonization of this Arale affects them.

Honestly, I think someone more experienced in Heroes should be here.

 

[Ss3micah]

@Ss3micah literally when was that ever the case for high godly regen beings? Nuking the entire plane doesn't mean shit for someone who comes back from literal nothingness. If Arale cannot neg Chaos' regen and immortalities it's not going to die or be incapacitated, simple as that.

You can ping DT and ask him to come here and explain it if so but evidently what I got from him is that you still need a dimensional plain of existence to regenerate on. HGR would only work if in this case you somehow regen without the need of a Dimensional plane to exist on. And Btw, even Nothingness itself exists on dimensional plains

Check this comment from DT right HERE
Yeah, so even nothingness is bounded by dimensionality. A 3-D nothingness does not compare to a 4-D nothingness and so on and so forth. So nuking a 4-D plane of existence would nuke even 4-D nothingness so regen from literal nothingness does nothing as nuking the dimensional plane also nukes whatever literal nothingness that Chaos would be respawning from.

Unless Chaos has feats of regen while the entire dimensional plain her resides on was gone then he can't regen. That's how DT explained it to me anyways. Again, Pin him for confirmation. Immortalities are the same thing here. The dont help Chaos is he has no feats of acting in when the dimensional plain he resides on is gone. In the words of DT "You can call it incapacitated instead of dead, if you like, but you are definitely defeated."

Has she precogged a type 4 acausal being? Because type 4 renders you immune to any precognition unless the precog has feats of affecting type 4s.

Her Precog is intertwined with the 4th wall. It works by looking into plot and seeing future events that will unfold within the narrative. Unless this Acausal 4 makes Chaos unperceivable on the narrative itself that even the 4th wall cant see him then yeah she's gonna see him. So unless Chaos isn't apart of the narrative anymore I dont see why arale can't see him
Btw 4th Wall Hax (which includes Precog) works at 5-D level and a 5-D precog > 4-D resistance to precognition since just like Type 5 Acausality.... Type 4 Acausality and it's resistances is tied to Dimensionality as well as confirmed by E12.

Its instant in the sense that being anywhere near the magic it has is enough to take effect, and being conceptually erased will permanently end Arale as she has no high godly regen.

She has no HGR yes but she does have Immortal 8 which works at a Range that Chaos can't perceive, effect nor reach so he can't stop that from happening as like all Immortal Type 8's its reliant on smth/someone else that Chaos can't reach

 

[Ss3micah]

Chaos's concept hax can erase being from existence, which would require HGR to bring her back. And I assume that her precog works on acau 4 being?

It can work on Chaos and I can give you reasons as to why:

#1. Precog works by looking into the narrative and seeing what will happen next. Acausal 4 does not cover any plot resistance or being absent from the narrative in any way
#2. Precog comes from 4th Wall Hax which works on 5-D levels. And as Confirmed by E12, Acausality is limited by Dimensionality and it's resistances included. Chaos has a 4-D Dimensionality so a 4-D resistance to Precog which would be no good against a 5-D precog