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Chainsaw Man discussion thread

GunshyFever said:
I assume it's best not to touch speed scaling until the speed CRT. That's gonna be removed, but with patience.
Click to expand...
theres still katana man blitzing a devil in part 2 with mach 81 speed, it was calculated like using the speed blitzed devil with just superhuman speed instead of the problematic angel speed scaling feat, and that devil didnt move at all when katana man got to cut him, so that feat seems reliable: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ElJoaki5/Chainsaw_Man:_Katana_Man_Blitzes_Devil

but katana man is more of a mid tier, hes clearly faster than angel, that makima statement of angel being the second strongest in the new special division 4 just behind kishibe just refers to his weapon creation powers, in fact, that 1000 years is clearly massively stronger than kishibe, but hes not that fast

i also i see that seemingly no one have made a calc on quanxis speed in base in international assasin arc feat? she scales from katana man mach 81 because she blitzed him in part 2
 
Breadbear83 said:
theres still katana man blitzing a devil in part 2 with mach 81 speed, it was calculated like using the speed blitzed devil with just superhuman speed instead of the problematic angel speed scaling feat, and that devil didnt move at all when katana man got to cut him, so that feat seems reliable: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ElJoaki5/Chainsaw_Man:_Katana_Man_Blitzes_Devil

but katana man is more of a mid tier, hes clearly faster than angel, that makima statement of angel being the second strongest in the new special division 4 just behind kishibe just refers to his weapon creation powers, in fact, that 1000 years is clearly massively stronger than kishibe, but hes not that fast

i also i see that seemingly no one have made a calc on quanxis speed in base in international assasin arc feat? she scales from katana man mach 81 because she blitzed him in part 2
Click to expand...
Issue is that Mid tiers apart from Quanxi, don't scale to that feat. They need their own speed feats, one which Reze provided, as well as Denji but reaction speed wise.
 
GunshyFever said:
Issue is that Mid tiers apart from Quanxi, don't scale to that feat. They need their own speed feats, one which Reze provided, as well as Denji but reaction speed wise.
Click to expand...
More feats is needed, that's true

But if for example post kishibe training denji was shown comparable in speed to katana man, and probably even got faster in later story arcs (until in part 2 becomes weaker post weakening and then stronger after fear boost) then characters comparable to denji can be there

At least all hybrids could scale from it because katana man is not shown or stated to be specifically one of the strongest hybrids, just like Miri sugo, whip and spear, he was speed blitzed by base quanxi, barem is hard to tell if he may be faster (he getting shot by a bunch of regular devil hunters in chainsawman church arc doesn't help him out, maybe an antifeat) rezee was shown stronger at times against denji, and quanxi does entirely scale from it

Yoshida was keeping up with quanxi in international assassin arc so he too

But if katana man feat is accepted and angel feat rejected, you will have a massive gap of characters speed, if a character doesn't scale above or similar to katana man, they may be even over a hundred times slower than mach 81

Plus how katana man could have realistically just gotten stronger from part 1 to part 2, but without statements implying he got, then it doesn't matter


What rezee speed feat in the movie are you talking about? Someone made a calc of it?
 
Anonymous_Learner said:
Click to expand...

Winji and Goatchita teaming up like the end of part 1, AND Denji truly loves and respects himself now?
no-content-back-to-back-days-v0-05ak9rzqm0od1.jpg
 
Breadbear83 said:
Points.
Click to expand...
Denji made movements for his leg saw attack before Katana Man dashed toward him using the sword draw dash. He's basically just running into Denji's chainsaw, since the entire move is just him going in a straight line with no ability to change trajectory. Denji caught onto that, which is why he was able to use the leg saw. Katana Man wasn't aware of it so he couldn't destroy it on impact. This makes the feat a showing of raw battle intelligence rather than actual reaction speed, because all Denji is really doing is extending his leg outward for Katana Man to run into it.

Worse, we don't scale off vibes. The hybrids have to prove they're faster or at least comparable to that level of speed. Quanxi is a good example, since she actually decapitated Katana Man effortlessly when he tried to use that move on her, while also fighting the nail fiend and Yoru's ranged attacks at the same time. That's Fujimoto showing you that Quanxi is above those three characters in terms of speed. We can't push ratings just because all the characters are hybrids. Some are weaker than others when they enter their devil forms because they're affected by the fear scaling of their concept.

Quanxi was also holding back against Yoshida by a significant amount so there's no real way to scale him to her.

Regarding Reze's movie feats, whether we can use them at all depends on the movie canon thread, which someone is working on right now. If that gets accepted, we wait until the movie releases digitally, and from there we can draw feats, calcs and scaling. I can already think of a lot of examples off the top of my head. Denji will be getting reaction speed, and only Beam will scale to Reze in raw speed, with Aki at most downscaling from Reze. We'll also use these feats for other manga characters, since this arc is really the only one with action for mid tiers apart from the next arc.
 
GunshyFever said:
Denji made movements for his leg saw attack before Katana Man dashed toward him using the sword draw dash. He's basically just running into Denji's chainsaw, since the entire move is just him going in a straight line with no ability to change trajectory. Denji caught onto that, which is why he was able to use the leg saw. Katana Man wasn't aware of it so he couldn't destroy it on impact. This makes the feat a showing of raw battle intelligence rather than actual reaction speed, because all Denji is really doing is extending his leg outward for Katana Man to run into it.

Worse, we don't scale off vibes. The hybrids have to prove they're faster or at least comparable to that level of speed. Quanxi is a good example, since she actually decapitated Katana Man effortlessly when he tried to use that move on her, while also fighting the nail fiend and Yoru's ranged attacks at the same time. That's Fujimoto showing you that Quanxi is above those three characters in terms of speed. We can't push ratings just because all the characters are hybrids. Some are weaker than others when they enter their devil forms because they're affected by the fear scaling of their concept.

Quanxi was also holding back against Yoshida by a significant amount so there's no real way to scale him to her.

Regarding Reze's movie feats, whether we can use them at all depends on the movie canon thread, which someone is working on right now. If that gets accepted, we wait until the movie releases digitally, and from there we can draw feats, calcs and scaling. I can already think of a lot of examples off the top of my head. Denji will be getting reaction speed, and only Beam will scale to Reze in raw speed, with Aki at most downscaling from Reze. We'll also use these feats for other manga characters, since this arc is really the only one with action for mid tiers apart from the next arc.
Click to expand...
About hybrids, you can compare them from their fight against pochita (twice), all of them, In the first one in chapter 86 a 87, tried an attack together were everyone reach pochita at the same time but pochita makes an explosion that blow them all away, but quanxi reach to him again first, and lands some of her arrows on him

Then katana man tries to land that super fast attack but gets sliced in many parts without hitting pochita

Then the other hybrids (except quanxi and miri) lands attack to pochita, barem with his flamethrowers by the under floor making pochita fly away, whip lands some hit on pochita, rezee grabs pochita by his "meat scarf" to fly away and spear throws and pierce pochita with a spear, but I understand that in this case they landed hits on pochita because of attacking at the same time and overwhelming him, and katana loses because of going alone

But in the fight against pochita disguising as denji, you see Miri and katana man going at the same speed against pochita (they get sliced in parts at the same time tho), then whip and rezee do the same, spear this time goes to pochita and hit him with the spear from close range, and barem uses his flamethrower, which hits pochita from the distance but not harm him, then quanxi keep up with pochita for a few seconds

Against post fear boost denji (who because of chainsawman becoming much more feared because of the chainsawman zombies, should be stronger and faster than katanaman with fear scaling) spear hits denji with a spear in close range and miri gets to stab pochita with a sword, whip doesn't really do anything, she genuely could be the weakest, but at least she was seen doing something against pochita in their first fight

So it's 2 fights were katanaman is with other hybrids, and another fight were other hybrids are fighting seriously In part 2, katanaman not performing exceptionally better by being fast enough to land hits on the enemy, and other hybrids fighting a denji that because of fear scaling should be faster than katanaman

I'll agree that post kishibe training Denji may not be comparable to katanaman speed, let alone if part 1 katanaman is weaker and slower than part 2 katanaman and couldn't perform that same feat, but when katanaman has been in situations were he's compared to other hybrids, he's not shown to be one of the fastest, quanxi is the only one that is undebatable, always better than katanaman but the others also get sometimes to seem faster than katanaman at times

Maybe I'll be more interested to see reliable proof that katanaman got stronger in part 2, if he did then yeah, definitively all hybrids wouldn't scale to his speed except quanxi
 
If a devil is more feared than 100% Gun Devil, do they upscale the City level feat he did?
Also is Makima more feared than 20% or 100% Gun Devil or is she not feared above him in general
 
Aaaaa11112222 said:
If a devil is more feared than 100% Gun Devil, do they upscale the City level feat he did?
Click to expand...
Yes, the primal devils already scale there
Aaaaa11112222 said:
Also is Makima more feared than 20% or 100% Gun Devil or is she not feared above him in general
Click to expand...
Neither. She Upscales most of the verse physically but she only gets >20%, possibly >100% gun devil power based on her not only getting the 20% gun devil's power but also damaging Part 1 Pochita
 
Breadbear83 said:
About hybrids, you can compare them from their fight against pochita (twice), all of them, In the first one in chapter 86 a 87, tried an attack together were everyone reach pochita at the same time but pochita makes an explosion that blow them all away, but quanxi reach to him again first, and lands some of her arrows on him

Then katana man tries to land that super fast attack but gets sliced in many parts without hitting pochita

Then the other hybrids (except quanxi and miri) lands attack to pochita, barem with his flamethrowers by the under floor making pochita fly away, whip lands some hit on pochita, rezee grabs pochita by his "meat scarf" to fly away and spear throws and pierce pochita with a spear, but I understand that in this case they landed hits on pochita because of attacking at the same time and overwhelming him, and katana loses because of going alone

But in the fight against pochita disguising as denji, you see Miri and katana man going at the same speed against pochita (they get sliced in parts at the same time tho), then whip and rezee do the same, spear this time goes to pochita and hit him with the spear from close range, and barem uses his flamethrower, which hits pochita from the distance but not harm him, then quanxi keep up with pochita for a few seconds

Against post fear boost denji (who because of chainsawman becoming much more feared because of the chainsawman zombies, should be stronger and faster than katanaman with fear scaling) spear hits denji with a spear in close range and miri gets to stab pochita with a sword, whip doesn't really do anything, she genuely could be the weakest, but at least she was seen doing something against pochita in their first fight

So it's 2 fights were katanaman is with other hybrids, and another fight were other hybrids are fighting seriously In part 2, katanaman not performing exceptionally better by being fast enough to land hits on the enemy, and other hybrids fighting a denji that because of fear scaling should be faster than katanaman

I'll agree that post kishibe training Denji may not be comparable to katanaman speed, let alone if part 1 katanaman is weaker and slower than part 2 katanaman and couldn't perform that same feat, but when katanaman has been in situations were he's compared to other hybrids, he's not shown to be one of the fastest, quanxi is the only one that is undebatable, always better than katanaman but the others also get sometimes to seem faster than katanaman at times

Maybe I'll be more interested to see reliable proof that katanaman got stronger in part 2, if he did then yeah, definitively all hybrids wouldn't scale to his speed except quanxi
Click to expand...
You cannot use these moments to scale these characters to the same speed as a group. Not only does this cause a lot of inconsistencies, but it's also just basic physics at play here. In chapter 87 (the first hybrid union fight you mention) they all transform at the same time and make an airborne jump toward Pochita. Once characters are airborne, their trajectories are no longer determined by running speed, only by the initial push and gravity and a panel showing characters moving toward something at the same time does not always mean their velocities were equal. Panels visually compress time and distance for readability. This is where feats come into play so we can have a narrative understanding of where characters scale within the story. You are arguing that "All hybrids = same speed". This brings issues:
  1. Base Quanxi decapitating Katana Man during his sword draw dash while fighting Nail and War simultaneously. This cannot be possible if Katana Man is just as fast as transformed Quanxi, who is faster than her base counterpart.
  2. Quanxi speed blitzing Miri Sugo who is unable to even detect her because of her sheer speed. Same reasoning as with Katana Man. This should not be possible.
  3. Barem being surprised by Quanxi's speed. Again, not possible if he can do the same thing once he transforms.
Even going to the second round against Pochita, Miri and Katana Man being side by side in travel and maybe combat speed because they jumped at the same velocity might be a reach, but I'll at least give them the benefit of the doubt. Katana Man is not even using his sword draw dash there, so you can't make a definite comparison between the two when his base combat speed is much slower than his full speed capabilities. The best you can get out of this is Bomb and Whip going bar for bar in travel speed when approaching Pochita. That's about as close as the similarities get, because again, there should be a distinction where Barem gets blitzed by Chainsaw Man while Quanxi can react and defend against him to some extent. From all the showings in the manga, hybrids vary completely in speed. A speed char would look like:
  • Quanxi (Transformed) > Quanxi > Barem (Transformed) > Chainsaw Man > Katana Man (Sword Draw Dash) > Whip Woman ~ Bomb girl (Explosions) > Bomb girl > Sword Man ~ Katana Man > Spear
In short, they are shown to not be equal, and they clearly are not equal in power, speed, skill or anything else.

Here's a draft of what future CSM scaling will look like. It's outdated, but when movie calcs start coming in I'll start updating it.
 
A friend shared with me a scan of Katana Man from a Chainsaw Man guide, where he’s referred to as someone with the same power as Denji (the guide was talking about Part 2).

Possible Katana Man upscale?
 
vsbattles.com

Saw vs Saw: No One Saw It Coming

Solitary Warrior from Hell vs High School Educated Genius Pochita (Chainsaw Devil) VS Denji (Devil-Human Hybrid) You are the chainsaw: To my man: Stats Pochita (Weakened) Attack Potency: Varies; At least 443.66 Tons of TNT, 550 Tons of TNT with chainsaws Durability: Varies; At least...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
GunshyFever said:
You cannot use these moments to scale these characters to the same speed as a group. Not only does this cause a lot of inconsistencies, but it's also just basic physics at play here. In chapter 87 (the first hybrid union fight you mention) they all transform at the same time and make an airborne jump toward Pochita. Once characters are airborne, their trajectories are no longer determined by running speed, only by the initial push and gravity and a panel showing characters moving toward something at the same time does not always mean their velocities were equal. Panels visually compress time and distance for readability. This is where feats come into play so we can have a narrative understanding of where characters scale within the story. You are arguing that "All hybrids = same speed". This brings issues:
  1. Base Quanxi decapitating Katana Man during his sword draw dash while fighting Nail and War simultaneously. This cannot be possible if Katana Man is just as fast as transformed Quanxi, who is faster than her base counterpart.
  2. Quanxi speed blitzing Miri Sugo who is unable to even detect her because of her sheer speed. Same reasoning as with Katana Man. This should not be possible.
  3. Barem being surprised by Quanxi's speed. Again, not possible if he can do the same thing once he transforms.
Even going to the second round against Pochita, Miri and Katana Man being side by side in travel and maybe combat speed because they jumped at the same velocity might be a reach, but I'll at least give them the benefit of the doubt. Katana Man is not even using his sword draw dash there, so you can't make a definite comparison between the two when his base combat speed is much slower than his full speed capabilities. The best you can get out of this is Bomb and Whip going bar for bar in travel speed when approaching Pochita. That's about as close as the similarities get, because again, there should be a distinction where Barem gets blitzed by Chainsaw Man while Quanxi can react and defend against him to some extent. From all the showings in the manga, hybrids vary completely in speed. A speed char would look like:
  • Quanxi (Transformed) > Quanxi > Barem (Transformed) > Chainsaw Man > Katana Man (Sword Draw Dash) > Whip Woman ~ Bomb girl (Explosions) > Bomb girl > Sword Man ~ Katana Man > Spear
In short, they are shown to not be equal, and they clearly are not equal in power, speed, skill or anything else.

Here's a draft of what future CSM scaling will look like. It's outdated, but when movie calcs start coming in I'll start updating it.
Click to expand...

GunshyFever said:
You cannot use these moments to scale these characters to the same speed as a group. Not only does this cause a lot of inconsistencies, but it's also just basic physics at play here. In chapter 87 (the first hybrid union fight you mention) they all transform at the same time and make an airborne jump toward Pochita. Once characters are airborne, their trajectories are no longer determined by running speed, only by the initial push and gravity and a panel showing characters moving toward something at the same time does not always mean their velocities were equal. Panels visually compress time and distance for readability. This is where feats come into play so we can have a narrative understanding of where characters scale within the story. You are arguing that "All hybrids = same speed". This brings issues:
  1. Base Quanxi decapitating Katana Man during his sword draw dash while fighting Nail and War simultaneously. This cannot be possible if Katana Man is just as fast as transformed Quanxi, who is faster than her base counterpart.
  2. Quanxi speed blitzing Miri Sugo who is unable to even detect her because of her sheer speed. Same reasoning as with Katana Man. This should not be possible.
  3. Barem being surprised by Quanxi's speed. Again, not possible if he can do the same thing once he transforms.
Even going to the second round against Pochita, Miri and Katana Man being side by side in travel and maybe combat speed because they jumped at the same velocity might be a reach, but I'll at least give them the benefit of the doubt. Katana Man is not even using his sword draw dash there, so you can't make a definite comparison between the two when his base combat speed is much slower than his full speed capabilities. The best you can get out of this is Bomb and Whip going bar for bar in travel speed when approaching Pochita. That's about as close as the similarities get, because again, there should be a distinction where Barem gets blitzed by Chainsaw Man while Quanxi can react and defend against him to some extent. From all the showings in the manga, hybrids vary completely in speed. A speed char would look like:
  • Quanxi (Transformed) > Quanxi > Barem (Transformed) > Chainsaw Man > Katana Man (Sword Draw Dash) > Whip Woman ~ Bomb girl (Explosions) > Bomb girl > Sword Man ~ Katana Man > Spear
In short, they are shown to not be equal, and they clearly are not equal in power, speed, skill or anything else.

Here's a draft of what future CSM scaling will look like. It's outdated, but when movie calcs start coming in I'll start updating it.
Click to expand...
I didn't say that their would all be entirely in the same speed as a group, but that they all can come close to katana man speed at times, like how I still pointed out that the team up against true from pochita can be invalid because of being a team up attack overwhelming pochita

But I should also consider katana man casual and sword slash speed big gap

The speed tiering can also be like this

1: quanxi base and transformed (even with the fear boost that quanxi was aware that chainsawman (denji) got, she still claimed for him to be weaker than her, and she killing the hybrid trio easier
2 and 3: post fear boost denji and katana man sword slash (denji because of being much more feared than the other hybrids should have higher stats and speed, but still slower than base quanxi, and at most slightly faster than sword slash katana man, weakened part 2 denji and part 1 Denji would scale much slower, and katana man normal speed too
4: spear devil (all his spears always landed on his opponents, pochita and denji, pochita disguised as denji and post fear boost denji got hit by close range spears attacks of him, and true form pochita got hit by a thrown spear, so his thrown spears may be faster, at most even faster than katanaman sword slash as that one didn't hit pochita, but not by large amount and as an highball)
5 and 6: barem and rezee (at top speed with explosions) (I can't see any notable speed differences between them, rezee has chainscaling from a denji that was still slower than katana man, idk why you put barem so high, he was only transformed in part 1 and he only uses his flamethrowers from the distance, catching pochita by surprise from the lower floor, and in the second fight he did the same but this time was directing to a pochita who had dozens of zombies on top of him, and somehow after getting out of the flames pochita was burning, which rather than just being he "dodging flames" it's kinda nonsense) he pointing out transformed quanxi high speed is something that any other hybrids could have been impressed by
7: Miri sugo and normal speed katana man (because of the fight against pochita and katana man having high speed gap between his normal and sword slash speed
8: whip devil and rezee normal speed (she barely only landed some whips on a pochita that was distracted by barems flames)

About what speed tier everyone would be given, I don't remember the names of the speed tiers (I'm on phone so I can't change tab to check), but there were the following speed tiers

Mach 100 to mach 1000 (lower end mostly): quanxi (mainly transformed) and maybe post fear boost denji as highball
Mach 50 to mach 100: katana man sword slash (it's the calculated one), lowballed/midballed post fear boost denji and spear devil (mostly when the throws his spears)
Mach 25 to mach 50: idk if anyone scales there, maybe lowballed/midball spear devil and highballed barems and rezee top speed
Mach 10 to 25: midball to lowball barem and rezee top speed, Miri sugo, normal speed katana man
Below mach 10: normal speed rezee and whip devil (I'd say if lowballed) also part 1 Denji could scale here

Spear and denji could get to say (at most mach 50 to mach 100) tier for katanaman sword slash scaling, while the others (except quanxi) should be lower
 
If the movie canon gets accepted any idea how the feats in there would improve the value characters scale to. Maybe the Class 100 stomp would be better since it seems larger than in the manga
 
Am i crazy in feeling Typhoon's tornado is more of a physical feats than just hax ?
 
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