CCC Gilgamesh Vs Type-Moon

[CrystalValley]

both are 1-C.

SBA

basically a match up of far superior speed and AP vs much better known hax.

also want to see how magecraft mystery immunity stacks up to authority.

Gilgamesh (Fate Series)

Gilgamesh is the Archer-class Servant of Tokiomi Tohsaka during the Fourth Holy Grail War. After Tokiomi's death, he reforged a new pact with Kirei Kotomine that lasted until the Fifth Holy Grail War. He is the King of Heroes, the hero of the oldest epic poem in human history. He was a demigod...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Crimson Moon

Since you are defenseless and unable to move, I shall protect you.Crimson Moon's promise to Gaia Brunestud of the Crimson Moon, also called Crimson Moon, is the Ultimate One of the Moon and the Third of the Twenty-Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors. He was the first Ultimate One to answer the call of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[HyperZero95]

Don't see how Crimson Moon gets past Ten Crowns.

 

[Theoretical]

How will types in general go about getting past authority

 

[CrystalValley]

How will types in general go about getting past authority

this is what i was wondering and I was wondering how the resistances of mystery for 1-Cs stacks up to authority. this was a match to measure that.

 

[Theoretical]

this is what i was wondering and I was wondering how the resistances of mystery for 1-Cs stacks up to authority. this was a match to measure that.

I'm kinda leaning towards mystery being superior shouldn't authority be a part of the supernatural phenomenon mystery foundates but regardless if types are really that strong then they probably must have some counter to authority I wouldn't be surprised if authority stuff don't work on them because they don't follow Earth's rules or sum like that

 

[CrystalValley]

I'm kinda leaning towards mystery being superior shouldn't authority be a part of the supernatural phenomenon mystery foundates but regardless if types are really that strong then they probably must have some counter to authority I wouldn't be surprised if authority stuff don't work on them because they don't follow Earth's rules or sum like that

i can't really argue for how authority works on here because this site misunderstands the very nature of it. so i'm waiting for some people who are more experienced in this site's interpretation of authority and mystery to see which comes out on top.

Type-Moon likely speed blitzes and has a one shot AP advantage if he can get past Gilgamesh's authority. but authority is weird and has some scaling chain stuff that seemed more OP than the mystery stuff. also mystery is 4-D and I was wondering if it automatically gets upgraded to 1-C when a 1-C character has it.

Spoiler

and if we're going outside the tiering system here, Gilgamesh should just speed blitz and hit him with the black barrel and flick his wrist with multiversal AP obliterating the not multiversal character. but i want to see VS Battles idea of Type-Moon and see how he fares against Gilgamesh so I made this match.

 

[TypeOU]

Isn't crimson moon profile outdated? As things stand, his subjective reality resistance is far too low for ten crowns, since it comes from his magecraft resistance.
I don't see why he should have a speed advantage either. He only scales above divine spirits, while gilgamesh. btw arcueid scaling massively above amaterasu is BS

 

[CrystalValley]

Isn't crimson moon profile outdated? As things stand, his subjective reality resistance is far too low for ten crowns, since it comes from his magecraft resistance.
I don't see why he should have a speed advantage either. He only scales above divine spirits, while gilgamesh. btw arcueid scaling massively above amaterasu is BS

depends. Amaterasu can only beat Extra Arc because of the information world of the Moon Cell amping people like her beyond her natural existence and outside of that, even Servant Arcueid with her sanity restored was basically stated to be the strongest, let alone her higher variations.

the problem comes with scaling other stuff to Extra. doesn't work well.

as for the speed advantage, i'm just going off the profiles so don't look at me lol. otherwise i'd consider this a spite match against Type-Moon.

for this site though, i think the current speed and AP scaling is (soon to be Roa) > Types >>>> Amaterasu > Gilgamesh. i just don't know how mystery compares to authority here. is it lower than authority like you're implying?

 

[TypeOU]

depends. Amaterasu can only beat Extra Arc because of the information world of the Moon Cell amping people like her beyond her natural existence and outside of that, even Servant Arcueid with her sanity restored was basically stated to be the strongest, let alone her higher variations.

Not really, the statement is along the lines of "Arcueid is the only one who even stand a chance if her sanity is restored, no matter how slim". Considering Arcueid ability to reach her opponent power level, a stronger form might become a close match Well, it's not that great of a statement because of something I will mention later though.

the problem comes with scaling other stuff to Extra. doesn't work well.

Scaling amaterasu should be fine. Kiara I don't really agree with but amaterasu was also compared to Sefar and mythological mystic code tamamo, so it's not just her being amped on the moon or being put from the sea to a pond. Which is also why Amaterasu being unbeatable never made a lot of sense to me, since tamamo compares the mythological mystic code to her power, and even reach 9 tails at the end of CCC. So Kiara, the mythological mystic code quatuor, saver and nine tails tamamo should at least stand a chance. Then there's gilgamesh further proving it in extella where he directly compares himself to max power Sefar, Amaterasu equal in power

as for the speed advantage, i'm just going off the profiles so don't look at me lol. otherwise i'd consider this a spite match against Type-Moon.

The profiles don't really give any value tho. While he would be faster than gil, it wouldn't be "speedblitz no reaction" fast

for this site though, i think the current speed and AP scaling is (soon to be Roa) > Types >>>> Amaterasu > Gilgamesh.

Amaterasu is above Kiara but yeah, that's more or less how it goes. I personally don't think types should upscale from amaterasu but whatever.

Anyway, back to the fight

i just don't know how mystery compares to authority here. is it lower than authority like you're implying?

Since it works based on scaling chains and such, "having a lot of mystery" isn't gonna be that much better than "having mystery" at all. It's above, but it's not like we can say "by how much?" or something. Seeing his profile, crimsoon moon seems to scale, or upscale, from the magic resistance skill, so authorities should get past him no problem. Whoever made his profile or participated in the CRT can correct me tho

 

[CrystalValley]

Not really, the statement is along the lines of "Arcueid is the only one who even stand a chance if her sanity is restored, no matter how slim". Considering Arcueid ability to reach her opponent power level, a stronger form might become a close match Well, it's not that great of a statement because of something I will mention later though.

in the profile of talking about Arcueid with her sanity restored it says she is "no longer" the strongest because of the information world amping gods beyond their natural existences. basically where wank becomes real lol. and the Arcueid stated to no longer be the strongest was Servant Arc with her sanity restored but still downgraded to a God. so yeah her unrestricted should be well above Amaterasu. but whatever Extra Arc's level is shouldn't translate to the rest of Nasuverse like Type-Moon, who is matched and surpassed by numerous Tsukihime characters that clearly aren't multiversal.

Scaling amaterasu should be fine. Kiara I don't really agree with but amaterasu was also compared to Sefar and mythological mystic code tamamo, so it's not just her being amped on the moon or being put from the sea to a pond. Which is also why Amaterasu being unbeatable never made a lot of sense to me, since tamamo compares the mythological mystic code to her power, and even reach 9 tails at the end of CCC. So Kiara, the mythological mystic code quatuor, saver and nine tails tamamo should at least stand a chance. Then there's gilgamesh further proving it in extella where he directly compares himself to max power Sefar, Amaterasu equal in power

Amaterasu being above everyone else in CCC was always wank tbh. there is a statement directly saying only Buddha can stand up to Kiara because he lacks sexual desire, which would mean Kiara even beats Extra Arcueid at full power let alone Amaterasu. not to mention the power levels described for Buddha and Kiara honestly put them above Amaterasu, but don't feel like getting too into that there.

generally i am against other stuff scaling to Extra due to anti feats, Extra taking place in the Universe of Record which has entirely different laws and mechanics where other beings from the Universe of Observation shouldn't scale, Nasuverse not really being a single unified canon anymore, like with the Tsukihime Remake being a different canon/rewrite of the original, Extella rewriting Extra massively and its lore, etc.

also when did Gilgamesh compare himself to a max power Sefar? i'm not denying the claim. i just don't remember this.

Since it works based on scaling chains and such, "having a lot of mystery" isn't gonna be that much better than "having mystery" at all. It's above, but it's not like we can say "by how much?" or something. Seeing his profile, crimsoon moon seems to scale, or upscale, from the magic resistance skill, so authorities should get past him no problem. Whoever made his profile or participated in the CRT can correct me tho

alright. well if this is all correct then thanks for telling me how mystery seems to stack up to authority on this site and how it works. i also was under the impression that this site rated authority above mystery, but was a bit confused when I saw Types having it which they regard as above others. so i was just checking to be sure with this fight.

 

[TypeOU]

in the profile of talking about Arcueid with her sanity restored it says she is "no longer" the strongest because of the information world amping gods beyond their natural existences.

"no longer the strongest" is a sentence you will often find in works with such a large range of strength. Like when a reincarnation cultivation novel describes the main character as "rising up to be once again the strongest". It's more like "she's no longer one of the strongest" than the single strongest. Going from arcueid to losing to regular servants (while still being strong to them) is definitively enough of a nerf. Also, it's theh same source that says that she "stands a chance, no matter how slim" against amaterasu

basically where wank becomes real lol. and the Arcueid stated to no longer be the strongest was Servant Arc with her sanity restored but still downgraded to a God. so yeah her unrestricted should be well above Amaterasu.

But again, that's an assumption with nothing to back it up. She could be well above amaterasu at her best, or comparable, or even weaker. You can only assume that she's at least in her league

but whatever Extra Arc's level is shouldn't translate to the rest of Nasuverse like Type-Moon, who is matched and surpassed by numerous Tsukihime characters that clearly aren't multiversal.

Arcueid wasn't at her best in tsukihime. Ultimate one is also a big mitigating factor.

Amaterasu being above everyone else in CCC was always wank tbh. there is a statement directly saying only Buddha can stand up to Kiara because he lacks sexual desire, which would mean Kiara even beats Extra Arcueid at full power let alone Amaterasu. not to mention the power levels described for Buddha and Kiara honestly put them above Amaterasu, but don't feel like getting too into that there.

I personally thinks that amaterasu is at least quite a bit above kiara but yeah, le'ts not.

generally i am against other stuff scaling to Extra due to anti feats, Extra taking place in the Universe of Record which has entirely different laws and mechanics where other beings from the Universe of Observation shouldn't scale, Nasuverse not really being a single unified canon anymore, like with the Tsukihime Remake being a different canon/rewrite of the original, Extella rewriting Extra massively and its lore, etc.

As I said, to me, extra scaling is fine if it comes from people comparing their extra selves to their true self, or if the character is explicitly nerfed or not altered. Gilgamesh calling the mythological mystic code "the power of the [his] legend", Tamamo comparing it to amaterasu, arcueid being nerfed, these kinds of things.

also when did Gilgamesh compare himself to a max power Sefar? i'm not denying the claim. i just don't remember this

IIRC he was talking to altera and he said something along the line of "you can't beat me, well, you would at least stand a chance if you recovered your full power". Might be totally wrong with the formulation but that was definitively the idea.

alright. well if this is all correct then thanks for telling me how mystery seems to stack up to authority on this site and how it works. i also was under the impression that this site rated authority above mystery, but was a bit confused when I saw Types having it, which they regard as above others. so i was just checking to be sure with this fight.

Yeah but as I said earlier, the types profiles are outdated, this could be tried again after they get upgraded.

 

[CrystalValley]

"no longer the strongest" is a sentence you will often find in works with such a large range of strength.

i think it's pretty clear it's referring to Extra. i don't really subscribe to the idea of "other fictions use it incorrectly or as hyperbole so that should be the naturally assumed position for everything." Arcueid only has a small chance against Amaterasu with the fact of gods getting amped in the information world, her still being mentioned to be a Servant with her sanity restored (called a cheat-tier Servant with her sanity restored) and no mentioning of her status not being downgraded to God anymore. Ultimate One also has limits in the Moon Cell unlike Gaia. so she has a lot going against her and is still able to stand up to Amaterasu to some extent.

Arcueid wasn't at her best in tsukihime. Ultimate one is also a big mitigating factor.

she was bested multiple times in Melty Blood and even toyed with and there have been direct statements comparing her 100% self to Type-Moon in power and scale. and there are several non multiversal characters that match or exceed 100% Arc in Tsukihime and some other works (Red Arc not Archetype-Earth)

IIRC he was talking to altera and he said something along the line of "you can't beat me, well, you would at least stand a chance if you recovered your full power". Might be totally wrong with the formulation but that was definitively the idea.

that sounds pretty crazy then. cool. will dig around for myself sometime and look.

Yeah but as I said earlier, the types profiles are outdated, this could be tried again after they get upgraded.

i assume they're going to scale Types to Extra Arcueid's authority or above?

 

[TypeOU]

i think it's pretty clear it's referring to Extra.

Seems unlikely since the statement is from the CCC era. Well, even then, that would only make her stronger than saver right?

i don't really subscribe to the idea of "other fictions use it incorrectly or as hyperbole so that should be the naturally assumed position for everything." Arcueid only has a small chance against Amaterasu with the fact of gods getting amped in the information world, her still being mentioned to be a Servant with her sanity restored (called a cheat-tier Servant with her sanity restored) and no mentioning of her status not being downgraded to God anymore. Ultimate One also has limits in the Moon Cell unlike Gaia. so she has a lot going against her and is still able to stand up to Amaterasu to some extent.

Which still makes her being stronger than amaterasu at full power a theory. I personally think she is (but not by that large of a margin), but it's definitively not an absolute fact.

she was bested multiple times in Melty Blood and even toyed with and there have been direct statements comparing her 100% self to Type-Moon in power and scale. and there are several non multiversal characters that match or exceed 100% Arc in Tsukihime and some other works (Red Arc not Archetype-Earth)

Being equal (or above, she is more like a "better crimson moon") crimson moon isn't that bad. Crimson moon is massively above zelretch, and that's pretty much the only feat it has. I don't remember her losing in melty blood too, is it in the remake? Haven't played it yet. Might also be because it's been years since my last time playing a melty blood game at all.

i assume they're going to scale Types to Extra Arcueid's authority or above?

No idea but authorities are very likely to come into play

 

[CrystalValley]

Seems unlikely since the statement is from the CCC era. Well, even then, that would only make her stronger than saver right?

i was referring to Extra as a whole meaning Extra and CCC. "the world of Extra" in context also refers to the Moon Cell.

Which still makes her being stronger than amaterasu at full power a theory. I personally think she is (but not by that large of a margin), but it's definitively not an absolute fact.

i think all of the evidence there presents a solid case for her not comparing at all, ignoring some of the other stuff I haven't brought up but we can agree to semi disagree.

Being equal (or above, she is more like a "better crimson moon") crimson moon isn't that bad.

hm i don't know how Red Arc is really superior to Type-Moon considering she only has a concept of death at night. then again she does have her Gaia backup. unless you mean Archetype-Earth, which is a whole different thing altogether.

Crimson moon is massively above zelretch, and that's pretty much the only feat it has.

hm? Type-Moon lost to Zelretch in a really close fight.

I don't remember her losing in melty blood too, is it in the remake?

i don't argue for the Remake. entirely different bad canon. Arcueid in Melty Blood got toyed with so badly by a weaker Tatari manifestation of Nanaya that she had to summon her Archetype-Earth self just to kill him the moment he went on the offensive (normal Arc's backup likely doesn't work on Nanaya since a lot of his speed is achieved through supernatural techniques instead of stats). Akiha also beat her. and Akiha with Roa absorbed and reaching full power is stated to likely exceed a rampaging Arcueid (and by extension Type-Moon), which would mean a full power Red Arc not restricting her blood lust. and that same Akiha got dropped like a fly by a dying Nanaya in Tsukihime. Prime Roa is also above Type-Moon too and required Arcueid with the help of the Catholic Church to put him down through unknown means. there's quite a few characters that are in the same league or above Red Arcueid.

some of these pages that were upgraded recently in a CRT has some scans in the profiles of this.

Shiki Tohno

Shiki Tohno is the protagonist of Tsukihime. Born as Shiki Nanaya, to the Nanaya clan of demon-killing assassins, Shiki was adopted by Makihisa Tohno after the massacre of the Nanaya clan. He was raised as Shiki Tohno, lost memory of his former life as one of the Nanaya, and continued his life...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Akiha Tohno

Akiha Tohno (遠野 秋葉, Tōno Akiha) is the younger sister of Shiki, and the head of the Tohno family. As with the rest of her family, she is a hybrid of human and Oni Kind, possessing supernatural powers as a result. Tier: 9-A | High 6-C | High 6-C | At least High 6-C Key: Weakened | Base |...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[TypeOU]

i was referring to Extra as a whole meaning Extra and CCC. "the world of Extra" in context also refers to the Moon Cell.

hm i don't know how Red Arc is really superior to Type-Moon considering she only has a concept of death at night. then again she does have her Gaia backup. unless you mean Archetype-Earth, which is a whole different thing altogether.

I absolutely meant archetype earth. It's been a few days so I'm not sure, we were talking about the strongest arcueid right?

hm? Type-Moon lost to Zelretch in a really close fight.

It was a bad matchup for CM, and the fight was close, so crimson moon>zelretch seems to be a fair assumption

i don't argue for the Remake. entirely different bad canon. Arcueid in Melty Blood got toyed with so badly by a weaker Tatari manifestation of Nanaya that she had to summon her Archetype-Earth self just to kill him the moment he went on the offensive (normal Arc's backup likely doesn't work on Nanaya since a lot of his speed is achieved through supernatural techniques instead of stats). Akiha also beat her. and Akiha with Roa absorbed and reaching full power is stated to likely exceed a rampaging Arcueid (and by extension Type-Moon), which would mean a full power Red Arc not restricting her blood lust. and that same Akiha got dropped like a fly by a dying Nanaya in Tsukihime. Prime Roa is also above Type-Moon too and required Arcueid with the help of the Catholic Church to put him down through unknown means. there's quite a few characters that are in the same league or above Red Arcueid.

Yep, thought we were talking about archetype earth. Arcueid can still lose since she relies on ultimate one, if she even has it, so overpowering herwith buffs or abilities works.

some of these pages that were upgraded recently in a CRT has some scans in the profiles of this.

Shiki Tohno

Shiki Tohno is the protagonist of Tsukihime. Born as Shiki Nanaya, to the Nanaya clan of demon-killing assassins, Shiki was adopted by Makihisa Tohno after the massacre of the Nanaya clan. He was raised as Shiki Tohno, lost memory of his former life as one of the Nanaya, and continued his life...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Akiha Tohno

Akiha Tohno (遠野 秋葉, Tōno Akiha) is the younger sister of Shiki, and the head of the Tohno family. As with the rest of her family, she is a hybrid of human and Oni Kind, possessing supernatural powers as a result. Tier: 9-A | High 6-C | High 6-C | At least High 6-C Key: Weakened | Base |...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Didn't even know there was a manga adaptation, I'll read it

 

[Regidian]

For the part of how type mystery will play with authority, we will surely have to wait for a type to appear in fgo to see the information i think.

 

[CrystalValley]

I absolutely meant archetype earth. It's been a few days so I'm not sure, we were talking about the strongest arcueid right?

we were just talking about how Extra Arc stacks up to Amaterasu i believe.

It was a bad matchup for CM, and the fight was close, so crimson moon>zelretch seems to be a fair assumption

honestly i have never seen that outside of VS Battles descriptions. i've seen no actual evidence of it being a bad match up in source material though.

Yep, thought we were talking about archetype earth. Arcueid can still lose since she relies on ultimate one, if she even has it, so overpowering herwith buffs or abilities works.

if i remember correctly our discussion was not thinking Type-Moon is really multiversal at all because he is generally compared to normal Arcueid at full power, who is matched and surpassed by numerous characters in Tsukihime. i think that is what we were talking about.

Didn't even know there was a manga adaptation, I'll read it

it's pretty good. it combined some of the routes and adds more information than the original game for the most part. a lot of sites though don't have the Extra chapter of Nanaya Vs Arcueid so you'll have to look around.

 

[Theoretical]

i can't really argue for how authority works on here because this site misunderstands the very nature of it. so i'm waiting for some people who are more experienced in this site's interpretation of authority and mystery to see which comes out on top.

Type-Moon likely speed blitzes and has a one shot AP advantage if he can get past Gilgamesh's authority. but authority is weird and has some scaling chain stuff that seemed more OP than the mystery stuff. also mystery is 4-D and I was wondering if it automatically gets upgraded to 1-C when a 1-C character has it.

Spoiler

and if we're going outside the tiering system here, Gilgamesh should just speed blitz and hit him with the black barrel and flick his wrist with multiversal AP obliterating the not multiversal character. but i want to see VS Battles idea of Type-Moon and see how he fares against Gilgamesh so I made this match.

Oh it's 4D didn't know I thought it was 1-C too