Caulifla and Pride Troopers' problem.

[AwkguyDB]

TBH I think scaling Base Goku to be equal to his Super Saiyan God form when he can still transform into it is dumb.
However, the gap is definitely not as big as 4-B to 3-A, either.

I think Base Goku is 3-B personally.

That's because you just might not understand the difference between the ritual and the training they did with Whis. Through the ritual Goku was able to temporarily access the form of SSJG while retaining the forms power, based on Vegeta's statements he might have even surpassed it eventually being at least on par with that boost with his Base form by the end of the fight. However this ritual did not give Goku the form or even god ki but just the boost. Finally after training with Whis along with Vegeta did Goku manage to harness god ki on his own and then had the ability to fully use it with his saiyan powers and stack it with Super Saiyan.

"Let's say I got a taste of something called Super Saiyan God, and now I've learned to tap into that power on my own. And it's the Super Saiya level of that.

— Goku

 

[AKM sama]

We've already discussed this earlier. All these characters were 3-A initially but because they didn't have solid feats and consistent showings since the ToP was inconsistent at handling other universes, it was decided that pride troopers should be downgraded to where they are now.

U6 saiyans were more consistent in that regard so their fight with pride troopers was treated as outlier.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I mean Goku was handling Caulifa at the very beginning of the arc and later Goku taking on Caulifa was a glorified training session where Caulifa was desperate to learn SSJ3. I think Caulifa and Kale just grow immensely stronger as they fight.

 

[Omegas03]

TBH I think scaling Base Goku to be equal to his Super Saiyan God form when he can still transform into it is dumb.

However, the gap is definitely not as big as 4-B to 3-A, either.

I think Base Goku is 3-B personally.

I think SSJ Goku post-BoG is = SSG so Base would be 110x baseline/50 which is still 3-A unless I am forgetting how far onto 3-A are BoG characters.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM

Thank you for helping out.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with AKM Sama, Goku is 3-A or above in all his forms. Also, the wording for Base Goku and SSG Goku mentioning above is bad. The answer is, Base Goku is stronger than SSG Goku was, who was 3-A even back then. But as of RoF saga and above, Goku and Vegeta grew in power to the point where even their base forms are SSG level with each form still being stronger than the last as far as SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG, SSB, SSB Kaioken x2-20, ect. It's similar to how later in ToP, SSB Goku and Vegeta became stronger than UI Sign was, but the current UI Sign and UIM are stronger yet.

Goku doesn't just get stronger from learning new transformations, he's always training to be stronger than yesterday, and often times the jumps are so great, that even his base forms and weaker transformations are stronger now then their strongest forms were. It's not like Base Form Goku is forever below Frieza saga SSJ just because he can still go SSJ. It's not like SSJ is forever below Cell saga SSJ2 just because they can still go SSJ2, and it's not like SSJ is forever below Buu Saga SSJ3. Goku constantly grows to where even Base Goku would solo all of Freiza saga, or SSJ would beat Super Perfect Cell, or SSJ2 would stomp Super Buu. Or heck, Super Goku is easily above all previously mentioned foes in his base form and always has from the beginning of Super. But Base Goku also happens to be universal due demonstrating BoG levels of power even now. His sparring match with Beerus disguised as Manoka was also a hint for that. As well as Base Goku being able to land a solid hit on Hit when SSB Vegeta was stomped. They both got a lot stronger now from then, but even back then, their base forms are easily universal.

Anyway Cabba has been Universal even in ToP saga. There was the fact that even Frost was Universal given he gave Base Goku trouble; when he is easily stronger than his RoF counterpart. And Goku possibly considered him stronger than 4th form Frieza in RoF though not as strong as Golden Frieza. Vegeta one-shotted Frost in SSJ form as he saw no need to toy around like Goku did in his SSJ form. And he actually did see potential in Cabba, as Vegeta upon getting Cabba to reach SSJ2 felt the need to use SSB despite not needing to use it against Magetta or Frost. Caulifa and Kale are also both comparable to Cabba. The Pride Troopers excluding the top three were all fodder that the saiyans literally did nothing but toy with and even Android 18 stomped them.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

I would have argued for God-like Saiyan state not being a thing hadn't it been for that bullshit Copy Vegeta filler saga where base Copy Vegeta took a kick to the face from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks unfazed. Although I don't mind base Goku and base Vegeta being 4-B instead.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I agree with AKM Sama, Goku is 3-A or above in all his forms. Also, the wording for Base Goku and SSG Goku mentioning above is bad. The answer is, Base Goku is stronger than SSG Goku was, who was 3-A even back then. But as of RoF saga and above, Goku and Vegeta grew in power to the point where even their base forms are SSG level with each form still being stronger than the last as far as SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG, SSB, SSB Kaioken x2-20, ect. It's similar to how later in ToP, SSB Goku and Vegeta became stronger than UI Sign was, but the current UI Sign and UIM are stronger yet.

Goku doesn't just get stronger from learning new transformations, he's always training to be stronger than yesterday, and often times the jumps are so great, that even his base forms and weaker transformations are stronger now then their strongest forms were. It's not like Base Form Goku is forever below Frieza saga SSJ just because he can still go SSJ. It's not like SSJ is forever below Cell saga SSJ2 just because they can still go SSJ2, and it's not like SSJ is forever below Buu Saga SSJ3. Goku constantly grows to where even Base Goku would solo all of Freiza saga, or SSJ would beat Super Perfect Cell, or SSJ2 would stomp Super Buu. Or heck, Super Goku is easily above all previously mentioned foes in his base form and always has from the beginning of Super. But Base Goku also happens to be universal due demonstrating BoG levels of power even now. His sparring match with Beerus disguised as Manoka was also a hint for that. As well as Base Goku being able to land a solid hit on Hit when SSB Vegeta was stomped. They both got a lot stronger now from then, but even back then, their base forms are easily universal.

Anyway Cabba has been Universal even in ToP saga. There was the fact that even Frost was Universal given he gave Base Goku trouble; when he is easily stronger than his RoF counterpart. And Goku possibly considered him stronger than 4th form Frieza in RoF though not as strong as Golden Frieza. Vegeta one-shotted Frost in SSJ form as he saw no need to toy around like Goku did in his SSJ form. And he actually did see potential in Cabba, as Vegeta upon getting Cabba to reach SSJ2 felt the need to use SSB despite not needing to use it against Magetta or Frost. Caulifa and Kale are also both comparable to Cabba. The Pride Troopers excluding the top three were all fodder that the saiyans literally did nothing but toy with and even Android 18 stomped them.

The problem is that Base U6 Saiyans were not toying around with Pride Troopers, Caulifla had a lot of troubles against them, also she became SSJ against someone who was Basil level. There are too many proofs to considered it an outlier, Lavender was also capable of keeping up with Base Gohan before the poison. Also the fact that Gohan couldn't use his Ultimate form means that he wasn't 3-A. RoF SSJ Gohan was not as strong as him during Buu Saga, Gohan thought that Tagoma was as strong as him in that moment and It Is said by Gohan himself in the preview of the episode 22.

https://youtu.be/4S3uXpIdykE

Goku teleported himself to Earth thanks to SSJ Gohan's ki? He did the same thanks to SSJ Kid Trunks' ki. So SSJ Kid Trunks did the same feat of Gohan and should be comparable to him.

https://youtu.be/FDFutDTGUGs

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We've already discussed this earlier. All these characters were 3-A initially but because they didn't have solid feats and consistent showings since the ToP was inconsistent at handling other universes, it was decided that pride troopers should be downgraded to where they are now.

U6 saiyans were more consistent in that regard so their fight with pride troopers was treated as outlier.

Amen

Tho, inconsistency and low end =/= outlier. It's an inconsistency.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Low end feats can also be outliers too; Outlier in general means an incident that doesn't belong.

Also, Gohan was still legit very strong during RoF saga. Although not quite as strong as Ultimate Gohan initially, Piccolo's death did cause him to enrage to the point where his Super Saiyan form is like Ultimate Gohan level or at least stronger than Gotenks. SSJ Gohan during the RoF saga was also comparible to Gotenks. We saw Gotenks fight Togama and that SSJ Gohan over powered a stronger Togama possessed by Ginyu.

Caulifa Vs Pride Troopers was still PIS, everyone still got knocked out in the end where as the U6 Saiyans still lasted a long while and fought very well against the 3-A forms of Goku and Vegeta.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here in summary?

 

[AKM sama]

Nothing, really! The U6 saiyans don't scale to those downgraded pride troopers because the pride troopers were the ones originally scaled to the saiyans and later it was decided not to scale them and downgrade them. So...probably close it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I think the thread should just be closed. Nothing is new here anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so.