Caulifla and Pride Troopers' problem.

[Omegas03]

Idk what you people mean by God Ki, everyone and their mothers could feel Base Goku back at the RoF arc. Goku only used god ki when he's SSJG or SSJB because the BoG SSJG power is part of himself now.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

One of Cabba's 3-A feats is literally based on Freeza and Vegeta himself said Cabba was his equal but okay. Also this is literally the same as what happened with OG Super Saiyan back in Z, why is it so difficult to understand that people surpassed SSG?

4th form Frieza was confident of defeating Caulifla and Kale, Goku even stopped him.

 

[Omegas03]

4th form Frieza was confident of defeating Caulifla and Kale, Goku even stopped him.

Well Base Frieza fought Dyspo who is SSJG tier but he also transformed against SSJ2 Cabba.

Also Frieza said that out of mere arrogance or could have easily meant by stomping them in his Golden Form.

 

[LordTracer]

Freeza is just arrogant, this is something that has been made very clear. He felt the need to go Golden for a fatigued SSJ2 Cabba's Galick Cannon.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The pride Troopers scale to 18, who's staying high 4-C. She scales to Shosa and Majora, two people even Krillin are able to fight with. They're even comparable to each other. Not to mention we don't know if 18 did any form of training.

Also again, SSJ Caulifla struggled against a character who's weaker than Fat Buu.

INB4 but they scale to Goku.

• Base Vegeta tanks hits from Katopesla after his strength increases by 300x. SSJ Vegeta fights ultimate Katopeslawho only got faster (yes faster. His ultimate mode only increases his normal strength by 300x, which was already amped).

• SSJ Vegeta tanks Cabba's punch, contradicting his monologue from before.

• Goku goes SSB against Ribranne.

• Goku goes SSB against Krillin.

• Goku goes SSJ2 against Zamasu but he's holding back immensely. Gowasu is impressed that Goku fought Beerus, wondering how he's alive, and even questions if he's on the level of a destroyer. Why would a regular old Kai be on suppressed Beerus' level when that said power is already frightening?

There're likely a lot more but these examples show how trigger happy the saiyans are with their forms. And simply saying lul they scale to Base Gookoo is a no no, especially given the context. We need confirmation that Goku is actually giving it his all. The only time Goku went all out was against Jiren and Kefla.

And remember outliers / anti-feats are a thing.

Anyway I'm going to bed.

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, Shosa landed one blow on an off-guard 18 and that vid you sent doesn't even show Majora fighting 18. Also 18's profile literally says Krillin is only comparable to her when she's suppressed. And we do know she did training, sparring is training.

And as for your points that supposedly contradict Caulifla and Cabba scaling to Goku and Vegeta:

- Katopesla literally says his attacks get 300x stronger again, he does not say he only gets faster.

- You just gonna completely overlook the fact that Vegeta has Grade 4 SSJ and Cabba only has Grade 1?

- And he one-shot Ribrianne, so what's your point?

- Zamasu is not a regular Kai, he is a Kaioshin in training and was stated numerous times to be a prodigy.

It at most shows Goku is trigger happy with Blue, and him transforming against Krillin at all is clearly an outlier. Cabba still scales to base Vegeta, who doesn't play around nearly as much as Goku, and the statement comes from Vegeta himself. Plus a fatigued SSJ2 Cabba > Base Freeza, who undeniably scales to full power base Goku. And Caulifla wasn't fighting base Goku, she was fighting SSJ2 Goku, and before you try to say Goku was just playing around, Caulifla was just as casual as Goku throughout that fight. So where are you even getting that the U6 Saiyans scale to base Goku from?

Also I'd like to see the evidence that supports the idea Goku was suppressed against literally everyone but Kefla and Jiren. When was he stated to be suppressed against Dyspo? Or Aniraza?

Yes, Caulifla struggling with Napapa is the outlier here as has been said more than once now.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Frieza transforming in his Golden Form against Cabba insn't the same thing of Goku when he transformed into Super Saiyan Blue against Trio De Dangers?

 

[LordTracer]

Freeza doesn't use Golden unless he absolutely needs to and we've never seen him use it unnecessarily, so...

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Wait hold up. When did Android 18 train?

 

[LordTracer]

She has been showing sparring with Krillin... sparring is training...

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

She has been showing sparring with Krillin... sparring is training...

So a quick sparring match with Krillin automatically makes her 3-A?

 

[LordTracer]

There any reason to assume that's literally the only time they've ever sparred?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

There any reason to assume that's literally the only time they've ever sparred?

That's not the point. How does training with a character weaker than you make you go from high 4-C to 3-A?

 

[LordTracer]

Ask Android 17.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ask Android 17.

Less than 10 years of unknown self training regimens > sparring with a high 4-C for less than two days.

 

[LordTracer]

Again, any reason to assume that's like the only time 18 and Krillin have sparred? As far as we know, all 17 did on that island was beat the crap out of poachers that should be 9-C at best.

 

[AwkguyDB]

So I have been against 3-A characters who scale to suppressed Goku and Vegeta for the longest. There is absolutely no logical explanation for Android 18 to be 3-A and thus most of the Pride Troopers nor should Caulifa and Kale. Base Vegeta was essentially dicking around with Ribrianne and nearly one shotted Monna in Base form who was beating the crap out of SSJ Cabba.

Goku has an extreme niche of holding back from his competitors so he can enjoy the thrill of any and every fight.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Also are we to forget that stamina drained Goku was beating down SSJ2 Caulifa?

 

[Peter1129]

Stamina drained Post-UIS Base Goku. The very same Goku that trashed LSS2 Kale as a SSG when previously LSS1 Kale trashed Pre-UIS SSB Goku and was literally the only non fusion/ultra instinct character whose power made Jiren budge or move in his meditation. Not even Base Toppo and SSB Vegeta's battle made Jiren budge and Kale did it by transforming. So yeah that fight doesn't really prove Caulifla is not 3-A.

 

[LordTracer]

Base Vegeta was very clearly annoyed with Ribrianne, he was not "dicking around." And all Vegeta did was send Monna flying when she wasn't expecting it.

We also gonna overlook that Goku was holding on primarily via skill and Caulifla was shown to be his superior in power? And she adapted like a minute later to match SSJ2 Goku?

Also Post-UIO1 Goku didn't even trash LSSJ2 Kale, she was able to briefly swap hands with him on her own.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Oh yeah forgot how Amped Goku gets after UIO

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Again, any reason to assume that's like the only time 18 and Krillin have sparred? As far as we know, all 17 did on that island was beat the crap out of poachers that should be 9-C at best.

As far as anyone knows Krillin an 18 only sparred when they knew about the tournament, sparring with someone weaker than you possibly more than one time in less than two days doesn't make you go from high 4-C to 3-A, especially when you're sparring partner power doesn't change.

And about the 17 thing. His scenario is completely different. He had 10 years to himself and he was able to train, not spar.

 

[LordTracer]

Train with who other than a bunch of 9-Cs at most?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Train with who other than a bunch of 9-Cs at most?

You really think he got that strong for one shotting a bunch of poachers? You do know you DB characters exercise by themselves and get stronger right?

 

[LordTracer]

When has anyone ever gone from beneath Imperfect Cell to '''Super Saiyan Blue''' tier through training by themselves?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

When has anyone ever gone from beneath Imperfect Cell to Super Saiyan Blue tier through training by themselves?

Piccolo trains in the ROSAT and becomes stronger than Semi Perfect Cell. Trunks trains in the ROSAT, regrowing his hair and getting stronger. Vegeta trains by himself in the ROSAT thrice. Once in Z, after he gets wrecked by Cell, and twice in Super.

Getting stronger when training by yourself to get stronger is definitely possible.

 

[LordTracer]

Did I say it wasn't? No, I didn't. I asked when has someone gone from beneath Imperfect Cell to on the level of Super Saiyan Blue Goku by Training by themselves. And 17 has no RoSaT, so...

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Did I say it wasn't? No, I didn't. I asked when has someone gone from beneath Imperfect Cell to on the level of Super Saiyan Blue Goku by Training by themselves. And 17 has no RoSaT, so...

The answer is no one except 17, but why does the gap suddenly matter now? Piccolo trained for like a day and went from being fodder to 4-Bs to 3-A. Yeah he trained with Gohan during that time but how is training by yourself so much less effect than training with a partner.

Even then, you don't know what methods 17 did over those ten years. So whatever methods you think he did is head canon. So please stop comparing 17 to 18.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Android 17 was a key character, so he became stronger after years and years of training and there are a lot of feats and statements about that. About Android 18? No one said something about her, she was important during the ToP for his relationship with Krilin. Android 18 didn't become 3-A, there are no solid proofs or stataments about that and she wasn't as important as his brother.

 

[LordTracer]

You're the one that brought up the gap in the first place, mate, so you tell me why it matters. And it's been shown that training with others yields better results? I only compare her to 17 because you asked the question of how training with someone weaker than you makes you 3-A. Honestly the discussion had moved quite a bit past 18 so I dunno why you brought that up again.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The point is that 18 did nothing major to go from high 4-C to 3-A.

 

[LordTracer]

Sigh... and again, as far as we know, neither did 17.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Sigh... and again, as far as we know, neither did 17.

17's scenario is much different and an Occam's Razor so stop bringing it up.

 

[LordTracer]

I would have, and then you brought up the entire reason I brought up 17 in the first place. Again. And Occam's Razor favors me on this.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Freeza doesn't use Golden unless he absolutely needs to and we've never seen him use it unnecessarily, so...

Frieza called Cabba trash and noted that it was a waste to expend excess stamina on him.

 

[LordTracer]

And...? That doesn't mean Freeza didn't need to transform to be stronger than his SSJ2. And the True Golden Form doesn't even majorly drain stamina so...

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask some staff members listed in the Knowledgeable Members List and the Dragon Ball verse page to comment here.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

You should ask some staff members listed in the Knowledgeable Members List and the Dragon Ball verse page to comment here.

Did It, thank you.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

TBH I think scaling Base Goku to be equal to his Super Saiyan God form when he can still transform into it is dumb.

However, the gap is definitely not as big as 4-B to 3-A, either.

I think Base Goku is 3-B personally.