Cassandra Cain: Slight Upgrade

[LordTracer]

Sometime ago I made this thread: Cassandra Cain Tiering Justificatio, and got Cass some better reasonings for her AP and speed. Looking back at it, and some other things, I realize Cass' AP and maybe speed should have been upgraded due to a few things.

1. She's scaled to Deathstroke. Deathstroke is tiered at 'At least 9-A', ranking above DC's typical 9-A+ street tiers, and Cass was able to overwhelm him in the two fights shown on her profile.

2. She is portrayed as superior to 9-A+ characters. As shown on her profile, Batman is noted as her inferior and she's consistently fought with Lady Shiva, who is also superior to Batman. A hindered Cass was even able to one-shot Shiva.

3. She always holds back. As stated here and here. The majority of her feats were performed while holding back, and as shown here, when she doesn't hold back, she can move so fast that Batman doesn't even register her movements.

My Proposal

Cass' AP is upgraded from 9-A+ to At least 9―A via overwhelming Deathstroke twice, one-shorting Shiva with a broken arm and being consistently portrayed as far above 9-A+ characters like Batman, possibly/likely 8-C or possibly/likely far higher via her performing these feats while holding back.

Cass' speed is upgraded from Massively Hypersonic to At least Massively Hypersonic, due to again, her always holding back, plus the feat above of being too fast for Batman to register when she doesn't hold back and maybe this feat, where she's able to dodge heat vision and a blitz from a weakened Supergirl. I can understand if that feat isn't accepted though.

Basically, At least 9-A, possibly/likely far higher (or 8-C) AP, and At least Massively Hypersonic Cass Cain.

 

[Antvasima]

She isn't supposed to be physically superior to Batman or Deathstroke. She is supposed to be sufficiently superior in skill to them to more than even out their advantages. Comics do not work at all "realistically" in this regard.

 

[LordTracer]

She's pretty consistently shown to be superior to at least Batman, or superior to others superior to him. And all while holding back. Lady Shiva was able to essentially stomp Batman, as shown by the feat on her profile, and a weakened Cass one-shot Shiva. Deathstroke might be iffy, but Cass harmed, traded blows with and defeated him twice, again while holding back. Even if she's not considered to be Deathstroke's superior in AP (though it really seems like she is), she should be At least 9-A for beating him twice while holding back.

 

[Antvasima]

Superhero comicbook characters often do not scale linearly based on physical power and speed in a logical manner. Quite extreme differences can be overcome with skill alone. Cassandra is not supposed to be physically stronger than Batman or especially Deathstroke. She is just a considerably more skilled fighter, and able to harm them in that manner.

 

[LordTracer]

Okay... she's still portrayed as if she is though, and she's portrayed as physically superior to Shiva, who is at least comparable to Batman physically. Karate Kid has a 2-C ranking because he's fought Kryptonians and done so via sheer skill. Why is that any different from Cass?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that you have a point. Officially she is supposed to be physically weaker, but swifter and more skilled though, but I suppose that intention translates poorly to our system.

 

[LordTracer]

So, At least 9-A, possibly/likely 8-C (or At least 9-A, possibly/likely higher) could work then. Perhaps a note could be added that's something along the lines of; "While she is portrayed to be physically weaker than the likes of Batman and Deathstroke, her skill allows her to overwhelm people of that caliber with ease."

 

[UsernameMan12]

Yeah this is where tier systems fail at. In DC, skill > physical stats if the person is skilled enough. Like Karate Kid for instance.

 

[Antvasima]

Something like this in that case:

"Although she is portrayed to be physically weaker than the likes of Batman and Deathstroke, her skill allows her to defeat characters of that caliber."

"Overwhelm with ease" is an exaggeration.

 

[LordTracer]

I mean, Cass is superior in skill to Shiva, who's stomped Batman and other people on his level like Katana. Deathstroke also said Batman couldn't take Cass down on his best day, and Cass was overwhelming Slade pretty easily in the second fight shown on her profile. But alright.

Would the upgrade be fine then? Her new AP description would be something along the lines of; At least Small Building level (Fought and outmatched Deathstroke twice. More skilled tha Batma), likely Building level (Always holds back. Has stalemated and defeated Lady Shiva, who did this to Killer Croc. Once even one-shot Shiva with a broken arm)

I think Lady Shiva should also have a similar rating, due to stalemating Cass once and holding her own pretty well the second time they fought. The likely building level part for her would come from when she was able to beat Killer Croc (who had a broken arm) while only using one arm to make it fair. If you're fine with that, her rating would be: At least Small Building level (Stalemated Cassandra Cai in their first fight and held her own in their second fight, although she was defeated), likely Building level (Defeated Killer Croc, who had a broken arm, while only using one of her own arms)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems fine, in lack of better options.

 

[LordTracer]

Both Cass and Shiva's profiles have been updated, do they look alright?

 

[Antvasima]

So-so. I tried to fix them:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Batgirl_(Cassandra_Cain)&diff=5020805&oldid=5020676

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Lady_Shiva&diff=5020816&oldid=5020218

 

[LordTracer]

Well, if you think the profiles are fine now, this thread can be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.