Carrier VS Imperial-Class Star Destroyer

[Not_Icarus]

Speed equalized.

Carrier:

Imperial-Class Star Destroyer:

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Doesn't the Carrier stomp? they're a High 6-C all the way through minus the mass interceptors, where as the Destroyer's High 6-C rating is exclusive to one of its weapons. Furthermore, the Carrier does have the Low 5-B Purifier which is pretty OP here.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Maybe you're right actually lol, though they don't really use the Purifer Beam for space combat but there's not really anything implying that they can't. Also I don't get why the Carriers themselves get listed here to be equiped with its' own weaponry when they're clearly shown to have no guns themselves. They're called Carriers for a reason, the Interceptors should have their keys removed tbh since it's their main way of attacking and they can surely harm Battlecruisers and other similar ships. Also they have hangar bays carrying other aircraft like Scouts, Phoenixes, Arbithers, and other ships that can fit inside the Carrier.

 

[Not_Icarus]

I wonder how many Interceptors they actually carry lore-wise. since there's no way a single Carrier which is a kilometer sized ship in size only carries 8 of them.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We don't really scale from game mechanics and Interceptors don't really have much firepower, but Carriers do carry massive swarms of interceptors in canon yes. High 6-C might refer to a Carrier's ramming capability or something; been a while since I played StarCraft though, so I might be misremembering if carriers have another weapon not used in game. Purifiers can still be used in space, but needs to be used from a distance.

 

[Not_Icarus]

There's nothing implying in the lore that they don't harm Battlecruisers though.

 

[Not_Icarus]

and oh yeah, the Star Destroyer has 6-B deflector shields but idk how they work.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The thing is, the durability of ships and vehicles aren't really the same as the durability of a character is treated; Battlecruisers and Carriers are much larger and more powerful in canon then they are in gameplay. And large sized objects in general are kind of more susceptible to chip damage than smaller objects of the same tier are. Chip damaging a wall on a planet sized space station doesn't make you Planet level. I don't think a single Interceptor has ever been shown to do massive damage to a Battlecruiser and they're individually more comparable to Wraiths iirc.

The High 6-C ratings come from the KE of Leviathan's tentacles and rough estimate on the nukes; which around 1000 of those nukes can basically perform Boros' feat. There was a calc on Narutoforums somewhere that puts Apocalypse nukes at 6-A, but we have to find it and check the work first. Interceptors are probably much stronger in fleets, but something tells me a single interceptor isn't like Nuclear level.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Perhaps High 6-C with multiple Interceptor works? I believe that Terran aircraft like Vikings have High 6-C AP due to the fact that they're designed to counter enemy capital ships with their anti-matter missiles and we even have an entire mission dedicated to fighting large Protoss vessels like Carriers and a Purifier Mothership with Vikings.

Also I'm confused with the High 6-C terran nukes tbh. Since they're stated to be much weaker tactical nukes due to the outcry on banning Apocalypse class nukes because of the nuking of Korhal IV with 1000 Apocalypse-class nukes. I'm ok with them staying this way tbh since they still harm capital ships and they are scaled with the Leviathan AP strength.

Also why did we remove the Baneling and Nydus Worm 8-B feats anyways? I don't see a solid reason for them to go down ngl.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Vikings don't yet have profiles and it might be best to ask AssaultWaffle about that; but I'm pretty sure those are still well below Thors which are around the same level as Battlecruisers. I also need to make note that there's quite a bit of PIS when playing as Terrans. Also, Apocalypse nukes are 6-A, but the ones used by Ghosts and Spectres still have their own Tier 6 stuff; the Apocalypse one of course nearly wiped out a panetery population in one blast though.

Also, in 2501 and beyond, it was actually stated that there are nukes similar in power to Apocalypse class nukes being in possession and used by Battlecruisers as well as against them. And they still made use of ghosts to channel them.

 

[Not_Icarus]

They're obviously below them but they are still considered to be a threat to High 6-C ships even in the field manual. Despite the loads of plot holes and PIS moments in the franchise they're fairly consistent in that regard.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pretty sure Vikings are considered around the same tier as Siege Tanks; Siege tanks are pretty OP in gameplay, but the opening cutscene of Heart of the Swarm portrayed Ultralisks as taking 0 damage from Siege Tanks and curb stomping multiple tanks and vikings. What I meant by PIS is that Terrans are generally on par with Zerg and Protoss in gameplay, but far below either one of them in canon. Also, it probably took like tens of thousands of Vikings just to take out one Mothership and a few Carriers in that protect the colony mission with the vikings looking for weak points and all that.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Siege tanks killed Ultralisks in the latest Soldiers comics though it took multiple shots, and they've damaged Battlecruisers in the novels though I can't exactly remember which one. I think it's Liberty's Crusade since I vaguely remember the story involving Duke and Arcturus.

Yeah the Terrans are the weakest race in the game, they lack the overall power needed to truly compete with the full might of the Zerg and Protoss. Practically all of the fights with the Protoss are typically small battles, random encounters, and etc though the Dominion recently managed to beat the Tal Darim when they tried to incinerate everyone in the planet where the Defenders of Man hideout was iirc (though I have no idea why they didn't just end the fight immidiately by burning the planet while in orbit). Fights with the Zerg tends to leave them heavily scarred.

I'm pretty skeptical with scaling the units in the game with the dream cinematic ngl, since it's literally a dream and Siege Tanks are capable of killing Ultralisks given enough numbers and time to shoot it down.

Someday if I can do this properly. I wanna upgrade the speed ratings of the ingame units since there's like a text story version of StarCraft 1 and the part where Kerrigan and Tassadar fight, Jim Raynor's suit can't track their punches even though the suit can track a Marine's hypersonic bullets. and there's something like in Queen of Blades or something where Kerrigan telekinetically stops a bullet close to her iirc. Also Zealot running and combat speeds. I remember a calc out there in Reddit or something where a Zealot runs across an entire moon. Also charge turns them into pure energy for a few microseconds letting them charge at enemies seemingly out of range

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pretty sure we still treat that as the Siege Tanks being on par with Ultralisks as PIS because there are still far too many inconsistencies, and it's still absurd for the conventional tanks to be on par with the nukes and other weapons of mass destruction.

Ultralisk once took a direct hit from a Nuke and absorbed and improved upon it. And I've got plans for some major StarCraft revisions eventually; and yeah, the speed ratings are currently downplayed at the moment. Kerrigan should scale from the Leviathan's tentacle speed which in turn scales to Protoss heroes. Jim Raynor and various Ghosts having bullet timing feats also sounds like keys for upgrades.

And actually, Kerrigan never fought Tassadar directly, that was a hologram meant to distract Kerrigan while he paralysis the Overmind.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Funny how this mostly turned out into a StarCraft Revision thread lol. I don't think it's necessary atm to move to an actual Revision thread since there's so much stuff hidden around in the lore. Also the ghost comics has Nova and the other guys dodging "lasers" in a training test. Idk how we can calc them, Nova's psionic blast feat could use a calc or can be considered High 6-C via scaling.

I'm skeptical about the psi-blades and other such reasoning on how they can't cut through unshielded material, it was never mentioned before and they're consistently described to be cutting through anything via negating durability (That one time where Alarak blew up a giant door and other giant doors was PIS since they could have just sliced open holes to fit inside them).

Kerrigan's sniper rifle range should have a range of 5km already since one of the old StarCraft threads had it showed. I'm still curious to why the 8-B Nydus and Baneling feats are gone though.

I have a proposal for the vehicles and characters like the Siege Tank and Viking ngl. How about we rate them as At Least 8-C Likely/Possibly High 6-C?(you could go for High 6-A if you wanna debate about it but it's really a stretch imo)and for the current High 6-C guys listed here, can we rate them as At Least High 6-C, Likely/Possibly High 6-A? Since I doubt that an entire capital ship can't harm a single hero unit.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Also the Leviathan linked in Kerrigan's profile is the wrong Leviathan btw lol.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I looked at the link and Kerrigan's profile and it does give me this one, so not sure what you're talking about.

 

[Not_Icarus]

The Primal Queen of Blades tabber has the wrong Leviathan on it. It has the Mass Effect Leviathan on it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ah crap, just noticed that. I'll ask a Content Mod or maybe AssaltWaffle to fix it since Kerrigan's page is locked.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Also about the Kerrigan and Tassadar fight, sure it was an illusion but his suit still couldn't track at least one of them fighting because they were fighting too fast.

Zealots are potentially in the hypersonic to massively hypersonic ranges with their running and combat speeds since charge let's them close the distance practically instantaneously againts foes and DTs in the comics have spun their blades around to block Hydralisk spines.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, the High 6-C hero units should be Massively Hypersonic in combat speed with Marines being well below that, Hypersonic seems legit for their combat speed. Zealots are also quite fast yes.

 

[Not_Icarus]

I need to find and read more comics and novels which has Zealot feats since they're surprisingly tough and fast and a Marine can barely scale to them. The only advantage a Marine has over a Zealot is range which is at best a kilometer I think, though there was a time where a Marine killed a zergling around 40 kilometers away I think but I don't know the source and it's likely impractical ranges and he probably got lucky despite Marine armor having auto-aim in them.

Speed of Darkness from what I've heard had like 2-3 Zealots fight at least 14 marines, two Goliaths, and six firebats from what I've heard.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Marines and and Zerglings shouldn't really scale from Zealots or High Templar; which is another thing to bring up is that the High Templar's feat is actually going to be back to High 8-C. It turns out Psionic Storm is atomization. Although, Marines and Zerglings should be well below that.

 

[Not_Icarus]

So 8-B is never coming back? Charge should still get a speed calc ngl, and the other Zealot speed feats like that one time one of them ran across an entire moon by himself but Idk what story it came from.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It might, I know the Nydus Worm calc still exists and Nydus Worms don't really fight and are considered significantly weaker than Ultralisks. Banelings also has a 8-B calc somewhere iirc, though unsure about it given the human vaporization standards revision we had a while back. If Nydus Worms are considered Mid Tier, then Mid Tiers might be 8-B scaling from them.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Zealots could be Hypersonic+ since they regularly fight and are outnumbered by the likes of Marines and Zerglings, and it's not exactly impossible for Zealots to block Marine fire since a Zealot in the Carrier short story blocked Hydralisk spines with her blades inside a Carrier though Hydralisk spines are slower than Marine bullets. Oh yeah an old SC1 era Siega Tank killed a Colossus in the Short Story Momentum (Vikings are also shown to be capable of killing them in the story)

Also I've found some story feats from according to the guy I copy pasted on Reddit, these are from an old brood war based novel which is probably Uprising, the Cold Symmetry short story, and also Queen of Blades novel.

https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/3ycu9h/40k_space_marine_vs_starcraft_protoss/

Actual comment I've found is in there if you wanna see it yourself

"Tenzaal leapt off the carcass at him. Propelled by her power suit and buoyed by her psionic skill, she traveled close to the speed of thought."

This ones a little vague of course.

"Saalok, is stated to be almost 3500km in diameter. That's the same size as our moon (3474.) "The scarred zealot crouched and, with his finger, marked three dots in the sand. The three arms of the protoss fleet, waiting for signals from his fallen aexilium—signals that would never come. Under those three dots, he traced one long line, and then another. Two lines: one Saalok day and one night remaining until the fleet would launch its inevitably failed attack. A rotation on Saalok was short; the moon was not tidally locked to Aiur, and its full revolution took place in roughly half the duration of a day on Teredal's homeworld. There was not much time." The "homeworld" is Aiur, which is basically the same as Earth. 500km bigger in diameter only, .98 g gravity, climate average 86 Fahrenheit, it's axial tilt is 18 degrees compared to Earth's 23, it's very similar. We can assume that by "half a day," it something close to 12 hours. … "He would place the beacons along the path of a perfect circle, using the navigation tools in his armor to map them at calculated distances. As each crystal screamed into the sky, its psychic paean would draw zerg to the epicenter. This was expected. The executor waiting in the fleet above would observe this, would assume all was going to plan." … "The sun had almost cleared the horizon. Time was running out. Crouching, Teredal wiped his markings clear from the sand and then placed the first beacon. He touched the arming groove, where hidden sensors tasted his cells and acquiesced. Red light began to shine from the beacon, soft pulses that indicated a signal would fire after one hundred and one flashes. Teredal stood and prepared to run. A sound came from the rocks to his side. He spun and ignited his blade. Nothing there but the fallen bodies of his comrades entwined with dead zerg. Had one of the monsters survived? He almost went to investigate—" … "Teredal ran. The distance to the next beacon's arming location was a shorter chord of his overall run, but he wanted to be far enough away from the first beacon when it went off. It was going to be heard by every zerg on the moon, and Teredal knew that the surprise signal from an enemy presumed dead would bring the monsters coming from all directions. Luckily, this leg of the journey would take him through a narrow canyon, and he wouldn't have to spend too much time dodging curious zerg. He hoped. The sand hissed beneath his swiftly moving feet, and Teredal let the rhythmic pace carry him across the white face of Saalok. Aiur began to rise on the eastern horizon, and it was more beautiful than he could have expected. From here, the vibrant greens and browns and blues that marked out the continents and oceans of his homeworld seemed pristine, untouched. Broad strokes of whiskered clouds swept across the poles, and Teredal felt a yearning for Aiur that was undiminished by time. Then the beacon went off. A scream, a roar, a terrible hurricane of psionic noise that raged across the Khala. The dark templar had prepared him for this, had warned him about the shockwave that would follow the release of each beacon. -pg. 4 Cold Symmetry http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/lore/s ... symmetry/1 He ran around the moon in 12 hours. The circumference of our moon is 6,784 miles. That divided by 12 is 565.3 mph (which by the way, this isn't even combat speed, he's just running.) But this would assume he ran a straight line around the moon. He didn't. He ran around fighting, placing beacons. He ends up running more than the total circumference of the moon, so the lowest end possible would be 565.3 mph, and the high end would be supersonic for this feat."

This one has been contested in the past, Some people interpret it has him running a perfect circle around the moon, others suggest he ran a perfect circle on the moon face, which would still suggest 100+MPH

"As the words left his lips Tassadar did the last thing Raynor would have expected—he ran. The Executor turned on his heel and did a graceful sideways leap, spinning down the hill in a smooth cartwheel motion and landing erect a good hundred feet from the base of the hill. The other protoss had apparently responded to some silent command because during the exchange they had crept silently down the hill as well, and now they were all grouped around their High Templar leader. Without another word Tassadar turned and led his Zealots at a full run around the hill and into the higher mountains that loomed beyond. The protoss moved so quickly that Raynor barely had time to register their departure before they had vanished from view."

This one clocks them in (Depending on your definition of barely registering movement) At 200+ MPH, on the low end.

And here is a second post showing some Combat speeds for you as well.

"No!" Tassadar stepped back again, then straightened. "I will not listen to this! You shall not corrupt me!" And he struck at Zeratul. The blow was so fast Raynor couldn't see it fully— he saw the protoss leader's arm slam forward in a blur, fist leveled at the Dark Templar's chest, but even his armor's targeting system couldn't clarify the image properly. It was simply too quick, too sudden. He thought he felt a rush of air from the punch, even here on his ridge, and knew that the impact would crush the Praetor's chest like an eggshell. But by the time the punch landed, the Praetor was no longer there. If Tassadar's move had been lightning-fast, Zeratul's response was as quick as thought. There was no blur, no sense of motion—the Praetor was simply two feet to the left of his former position. It had happened in less than a blink, and Raynor's eyes twitched trying to adjust even as his brain registered the Dark Templar's change in position. It hadn't been an illusion, either, like the one Tassadar himself had used against Kerrigan. Raynor was sure of that, though he couldn't say why. He just knew that the Praetor had been facing Tassadar an instant ago, and now he was off to one side. "You strike with force but no focus," Zeratul warned Tassadar, and something in his voice told Raynor that if the protoss had lips and a mouth they would be curved into a smile right now. "Do not waste yourself on such useless expenditures. Do not throw away your energy on uncertainties. Wait until the moment is truly right, then marshal your strength for the attack." "Do not lecture me!" Tassadar roared, his words an uncanny echo of Kerrigan's retort to Zeratul during their battle, shaking his head to clear it. He attacked again, his moves even faster this time, his strikes more furious. Not once but three times his fists moved, so fast they seemed to punch all at once, in a neat row to the left, to the right, and dead center on the Praetor's chest. Raynor understood the logic behind it. The Executor was hoping to box his opponent in, hitting to either side to keep him from ducking out of the way again. He was counting on at least one punch landing. But none of them did. Zeratul moved again, sliding to the left before Tassadar's first blow landed—a move that somehow did not involve his legs or feet, simply his body's suddenly appearing two feet from its previous location. Then he was back in his former position, as the Executor's other two strikes passed harmlessly alongside him. "Still you attack without concentration," Zeratul said, shaking his head slightly. "You use your body with full force, but not your mind. Why, when it is your mightiest weapon? Do not lash out with fists first," he cautioned, his own hand snaking out and latching onto Tassadar's wrist before the Executor could draw his hand back from his failed attack. "Target your foe with your mind first," the Dark Templar instructed, shadows welling up beneath his fingertips and wrapping dark bands around Tassadar's forearm. "When your mind is locked upon your opponent your fists may follow, and then they cannot fail to strike." The darkness was rising now, sheathing Tassadar's arm up to the elbow, and Raynor could almost feel the Executor's attempt to jerk away. A spurt of swirling emotion burst forth from Tassadar, half pain and half fear, perhaps the first fear the mighty protoss had ever felt. And then that fear gave way to another emotion—rage. "Enough of your confusions!" he roared, the thunder crackling beneath his words propelling Zeratul away from him with an almost palpable force. Tassadar flexed, blue arcs of energy flaring from his wrists, and the shadows fell away, shredded by the brilliant light. "You speak in riddles to distract me," he accused the Praetor, taking a step back and raising both arms, high over his head, the lightning arcing between them. "But I will not be swayed!" As Tassadar lowered his arms, the lightning settled around his wrists, sweeping forward to form blades like those his warriors wielded, but longer, brighter, and filled with a crackling hum that made Raynor's hairs stand on end. These blades were not contained—or created—by bracers, he knew. They were a part of Tassadar himself, an expression of his own power. "Now we will see an end to your lies," Tassadar warned, taking one slow step toward his counterpart. "Once and for all." The other protoss had left off their own duels, watching their leaders battle, and Raynor's eyes were locked on the conflict as well. He knew somehow that this was a match of epic proportions, one that would become part of protoss history. Assuming any of the witnesses survived to tell of it. As he shifted to get a better view, Raynor caught a speck of movement from the corner of his eye. He twisted slightly to get a better look, and froze. "Aw, hell," he whispered as he registered what he was seeing. His helmet automatically tracked and magnified the image, making it impossible to ignore. It was the zerg. Lots of them, probably the entire brood. And they were heading this way. Raynor glanced back at the plateau, where Tassadar was still stalking toward Zeratul, energy blades extended. The protoss were all fixated upon them, too much so to notice the approaching Swarm. They'd be slaughtered. "Well, this ain't gonna be good," Raynor muttered to himself. He levered himself up from his crouch and leaped forward, the suit's servos causing him to sail across the gap between the ridge and the plateau. He unslung the canister rifle on his back as he moved, swinging it around and into his hands as he landed, bending his knees to absorb the impact and taking a single step forward to keep his balance. He found himself facing several dozen energy blades, wielded by several dozen angry protoss. "Hold on!" Raynor shouted, raising the rifle over his head with both hands. "I ain't your enemy! They are!" He pointed, and many of the protoss turned to gaze past the plateau— —just as the first of the mutalisks, guardians, and devourers swept down upon them. "To arms!" Tassadar shouted, his feud with Zeratul instantly shunted to the background. "Regroup, my Zealots, and we will teach these zerg what it means to confront the protoss!" His right arm swept up almost lazily, the energy blade extending even farther as it arced above his head and sliced the leading devourer in two, its halves falling to the rock on either side of him."

Heres Tassadar outdoing a Terran tracking device,(which can track hypersonic rounds) and Zeratul outdoing that by even a larger margin.

 

[Not_Icarus]

and I think that's about enough for now since this isn't really about the Carrier VS Star Destroyer debate I've started lol. Anymore large revision related comments should probably be for an actual CRT.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Sounds like regular movement speed would be Subsonic to Subsonic+ for Zealots; seems legit.

 

[Not_Icarus]

We still have the charge ability to potentially calc though. They're described to be "lightning fast" for turning into pure energy for a few seconds and for closing the distance againts far away enemies.