- 4,419
- 1,862
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Caped Baldy vs Man with a sword
- Thread starter SatellaTheWoE
- Start date
- Status
- 4,419
- 1,862
- Thread starter
- #2
Bump
- 4,806
- 2,680
Just why?
- 7,342
- 8,112
Reinhard swings Reid and Saitama becomes atoms. Saitama isn't likely to open with huge shockwaves and with speed equal Reinhard heavily outskills. Not to mention even if Saitama destroys him his immortality lets him revive, so the only wincon against him would be BFRing him to space. Wich wouldn't happen in character unless he's bloodlusted after last chapter's additions.
- 4,419
- 1,862
- Thread starter
- #5
Reinhard stomps Saitama and then goes on a lovely date with him, debate over
- 33
- 3
OBJECTION!
~Not in character battle~
1) PLANET BUSTING: Saitama destroy the world with a single sneeze, kick on the ground or punch (since it is stated that his opponent immortality activate only as long as the world holds the voice of someone seeking help)
The distance between the ground and Saitama should be less than the distance between Reinhard and Saitama so at equal speed, Saitama should be hit the planet faster than Reinhard can hit saitama.
Even if this wasn't the case, the second event can still occur and can make Reinhard too busy to attack Saitama
2)REVERSAL CAUSALITY:
Saitama can use a punch that result in a "reversal causality" event.
A stronger version of saitama (no limits on how strong this Saitama can be) one shot the opponent before saitama get one shotted (in this case while moving by farting, since the two individuals are now in space).
Since this is Reversal Causality, the events that lead to a stronger version of saitama to one punch his enemy don't need to occur in this timeline (in fact the events that led Saitama to Time Travel in canon never happen in the current timeline and there is no explaination, reason or CAUSALITY for this to occur, but a stronger saitama that was able to one shot garou manage to appear anyway: from their prospective this happened totally randomly).
Such punch is unavoidable (as stated).
Something unavoidable is not necessary the direct product of infinite speed (in fact the Saitama in the Future may not have infinite speed), therefore the SBA condition is still maintened.
Saitama would win the battle in Zero Landed Punches (from his timeline prospective)
~In character Version~
Saitama Litterally does nothing. Reinhard is about to attack but a random Saitama (stronger, bloodlusted or overpowered) from another timeline appear with an unavoidable move and send Reinhard to space.
This yet again is Reversal Causality. This can still happen because, like explained before, this timeline does not need to have the reason, explaination or causality for which a stronger Saitama randomly appear...meaning it can still occur while the current Saitama Remain in character.
Since Reinhard is in space, Saitama is under win condition.
Last edited:
- 4,419
- 1,862
- Thread starter
- #7
That wouldnt work under normal conditions at all since the reason the future Saitama could appear was due to Garous help and i doubt he can actually do so again as he is just too dumb to even think about it, also he didnt do a reverse causality punch he instead sent his anti matter back in time. Plus that reaction even if he understood how to do so would not happen becuz he would have already been killed, remember that the reason he could go back in time was becuz he was alive he cannot do so if he got one shotted by garou and died instantly. So no your arguement is invalid
- 4,419
- 1,862
- Thread starter
- #8
Also Reinhard will be immortal even if the entire world turned against him and your claim of someone seeking help is false, his immortality is gifted to him by the od laguna which is like the soul of the world and Saitama does not have prior knowledge so even in out of character he would not just straight up destroy the planet they are standing on that is just bullshit
- 9,222
- 3,365
spite
- 33
- 3
"your claim of someone seeking help is false"
Lol. I just quoted word by word a part of the wiki of Versus Battle on Reinhard. That's it.
<<Can't die as long as the world holds the voice of someone seeking help>>
"Saitama does not have prior knowledge so even in out of character he would not just straight up destroy the planet they are standing on that is just bullshit"
True, that was a nice observation, then it will be a Saitama from the future to do that, and i will explain better why, because i think you may didn't have understood before
"due to Garous help and i doubt he can actually do so again as he is just too dumb to even think about it"
Here we go again. Classic argument that is often brought up.
I knew that this statement gonna came out.
There are 2 things that i can contest with that:
1)In the Timeline where Garou was defeated, Saitama never knew how to time travel, but from their prospective a random Saitama appeared anyway without any reason, even if in that Timeline there was no causality (since garou was defeated before Saitama learned to time travel) to explain how an alternative Saitama went back in time.
Follow carefully the logic here.
Imagine to read up to Chapter 166 and then skip immediatly to the point where a Saitama from another Timeline appear in 168.
From that timeline prospective this happened completely randomly and the causality that led to Saitama to know how to Time Travel never happened in that timeline, but a random stronger Saitama from another Timeframe appeared anyway even if the Saitama of such Timeline didn't technically knew how to Time Travel.
I dunno if you have understood how broken it is and how it work.
Reverse causality (like already explained) means that X and Y are associated, but not in the way you would expect. Instead of X causing a change in Y, it is really the other way around: Y is causing changes in X.
With Reversal Causality there is no need that the current Saitama know how to Time Travel because a Future and stronger Saitama from any other potential not occured Timeline can appear anyway without having necessary the cause or explaination that permitted him to do that in the present timeframe.
At any given moment there is a probability not equal to 0 that this can happen
2)Plus, yet again, even if we follow your logic your assumption do not substain also because your are going against a remarkable principle of power scaling, which is to compare 2 character at their peak, not their less stronger version (beyond the stated SBA condition, which in this case was only equal speed)
The strongest Version (in term of both abilities and power) of Saitama so far is exactly the one that just beat Garou and learned to time travel
If, for any reason, Saitama or Reinhard for any event in the Manga lose all of their powers or forget how to fight (even just for a arc), would you still Compare them while using the weaker current Reinhard or Saitama (at their lowest) or would you indeed take to reference their previous stronger versions?
Anyway, this is not even the biggest problem if you are making an argument in favor of Reinhard...
~Author's Statement~
Tappei said this:
It was also Stated that, after the drama that happened exactly around such Statement, the author didn't change his mind (remember the whole Overlord vs Re:Zero debate?).
Taking into account the statement from the creator, and noticing that Saitama is at bare minimum Planetary Level, you have to give it to Saitama or at the very least conced No contest (Stalemate) if you are taking into account the statement from the Author .
Hey, At least they can finally go to that date now.
Proof:
Last edited:
- 4,419
- 1,862
- Thread starter
- #11
As it turns out i am actually aware of the entire situation with Reinhard and the end conclusion was that the author was referring to him SAVING the city, he himself would not be harmed but the people in the city would. Its also pointed out that the debate wasnt ever about power level to begin with so your entire arguement over that falls flat instantly.
I donr believe that Saitamas scaling has been updated yet becuz that is a no limit fallacy, you cannot just go "well he did kill him anyway becuz a future version of him appears".
my original point was that since the Saitama would die against Reinhard instantly there will be no future Saitama to take over unless your point is that a random stronger saitama that knows everything about reinhard comes from another timeline to save him which is once again false since forget travelling into other parallel universes, Saitama does not even have a different version of him aside from the one from the same timeline.
My other point was that Garou taught him how to time travel and he himself has forgotten it unless you can prove it to me that he could relearn it atter being killed by Reinhard i am not budging. And since he IS pretty dumb i doubt he will be able to do so himself
- 4,419
- 1,862
- Thread starter
- #12
And btw the power level was never the original debate at all Reinhard outhaxes him hard
- 33
- 3
"him SAVING the city, he himself would not be harmed but the people in the city would. Its also pointed out that the debate wasnt ever about power level to begin with so your entire arguement over that falls flat instantly."
Source? Not that i don't think it cannot be true, just for intellectual fairness.
"I donr believe that Saitamas scaling has been updated yet becuz that is a no limit fallacy, you cannot just go "well he did kill him anyway becuz a future version of him appears"."
Give me the definition of a no limit fallacy.
As far as i know a no limit fallacy is <<when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).>>
I didn't claim that Saitama have no limits in strenght because he have not demostrated any limits, i stated that Saitama have not limits in strenght because it is litterally stated that he have no limits and he grow everyday to the point that his version of today can one shot his version of yesterday.
"My original point was that since the Saitama would die against Reinhard instantly there will be no future Saitama to take over"
Yep, you still don't understand how reversal of causality works because the entire previous explaination directly address your point.
In fact because of reversal of Causality i can make the same argument: Reinhard would not kill Saitama instantly because a Saitama from the future will stop him, therefore the event of him killing Saitama never happened.
Remember, that reverse of Causality means that Y lead to changes to X rather than the contrary (in fact Saitama from the future caused changes in that timeline even if the events that led Saitama to do that have been essentially deleted and never happened...i don't know if you got this important point) while X in this case cannot understand the cause of Y (Reversal of Causality).
"Saitama to take over unless your point is that a random stronger saitama that knows everything about reinhard comes from another timeline to save him which is once again false since forget travelling into other parallel universes, Saitama does not even have a different version of him aside from the one from the same timeline [...] Saitama does not even have a different version of him aside from the one from the same timeline."
I never talked about parellel universes. This can happen also on the same plane of reality but in different Timelines...which is the exact reason why there were 2 Saitama for a while and only after they became 1.
"My other point was that Garou taught him how to time travel and he himself has forgotten it unless you can prove it to me that he could relearn it"
And indeed i already replied to that point.
First you need to compare the charecters at their peak of their abilities unless it is not specified by SBA (like i said, the One punch Man manga may even finish with Saitama losing all his powers or the author of Reinhard may decide to make him less powerfull for an arc; in such cases it is more likely that you will compare the stronger version of them rather than the weaker one, because there will be no point otherwise; as far as we know the strongest version of Saitama -also by Hax- was also the Saitama that just beat Garou and learned how to time travel).
Second the fact that he have forgotten is irrelevant if there is a probability not equal to 0 that this can indeed happen.
Did the Saitama of that Timeline know how to Time travel?
(Correct Answer: No)
Did Garou ever teached Saitama in that Timeline travel?
(Correct Answer: No)
Did the same event that will lead Saitama to know how to Time Travel ever occured in that Timeline?
(Correct Answer:No)
Despite that, if you read the manga until chapter 166 and you skip directly at the end of 168 (where Saitama win in 0 punches), from your prospective it would seem that future Saitama appear for no reason or explaination (causality) because current Saitama doesn't know how to time travel and the hypothetical events that lead him to know to do that never happened. Despite that, a stronger future version of Saitama from a non existing Timeline managed to appear anyway without an existing causality.
With Reversal of Causality there is no need that the current Saitama know how to Time Travel because a Future and stronger Saitama from any other potential not occured (never happened) Timeline can appear anyway without having necessary the cause or explaination that permitted him to do that in the present timeframe.
At any given moment there is a probability not equal to 0 that this can in fact happen.
"You can prove it to me that he could relearn it"
Garou litteraly stated that Saitama was the only one that could Master the power of God without God's help, meaning that there is always a probability not equal to 0 that Saitama can re-Master Time Travel again.
And if there is always a probability not equal to 0 that he could Master Time Travel again in the future, then there is also a probability greater than 0 that a Saitama from the future can intervene or end the fight in 0 punches (you have to analyze this feat from a more broad standpoint; this also assuming that you are not take the Saitama at the peak of his Hax)
"And since he IS pretty dumb i doubt he will be able to do so himself"
Which is irrelevant, because even if someone else teach him, it means that he learned that technique again, therefore now there is a probability greater than 0 that this can happen due to the potential existence of a not occured (which mean it is never actually happened, which is important for our debate) potential future Timeline.
God have the ability to mess with Time and Space (since that technique is an ability of God, like Stated by Garou).
Why Garou said that Saitama can Master the power of God without God help?
Will God teach Saitama how to do that (which would be self contradictory)?
If not, does it mean that there is a probability not equal to 0 that he can Master (again) the power of God?
If so, check previous implications.
- 4,419
- 1,862
- Thread starter
- #14
I do get your point of reversal of casualty but since that hasn't been added to his profile with added clarifications i will refrain from taking it as a proper arguement since this power can have multiple possibilities, for eg as i just said the fact that Saitama would be dead here means that there will be no future and if there was then you did need to show me him performing that kind of feat which he hasn't and unless its clarrified otherwise this arguement i will be taking as null.
Also Ice himself said that there was a mistranslation and the original debate wasnt even about powerscaling after writing that post. i will try to look for it but my twitter has been acting funky lately.
Garou meant that Saitama had the potential to learn it and the NLF here is the fact that you argue him being able to do everything possible regardless of his present situation becuz of RoC
Vietthai96
He/Him- 9,232
- 12,280
Wtf guys, The "current" Saitama still is not on the profile, you guy practically debate with a character that still not exist yet
- 4,419
- 1,862
- Thread starter
- #16
Thats what i was saying
- 33
- 3
"I do get your point of reversal of casualty [...] as i just said the fact that Saitama would be dead here means that there will be no future and if there was then you did need to show me him performing that kind of feat which he hasn't"
The fact that you did this argument exposed that you didn't get the point of reversal causality, because the Event in which Saitama Save himself can happen before Reinhard kill Saitama, meaning that there will be a future where Saitama can potentially go back in Time and Save itself.
There is no need to show you him performing that kind of feat because it litteraly did it in the previous chapter.
Papers on what it is Reverse Causality:
Retrocausality - Wikipedia
"Since that hasn't been added to his profile"
Ah, ok, so you were basing the battle on the feats before 168, not the present ones, fair enough. In that case Reinhard win.
"Garou meant that Saitama had the potential to learn it"
Which is the point of the argument since:
1)He de facto learned it, so you should technically usually compare the characters at the peak of their abilities under the limits of specified SBA conditions
2)The fact he can learn it means that there is a probability not equal to 0 that this can happen
"NLF here is the fact that you argue him being able to do everything possible regardless of his present situation becuz of RoC"
Never said or argued that.
I said that his strenght constantly grow (feat stated in the manga) to the point his version of Today can 1 shot his version of the previous day (feat shown in the manga).
If you compare the character at their top of their Hax, then Saitama can Time travel because it is a feat that he have demostrated he can do (unless if the manga ends with Saitama losing all of his power - or viceversa for Reinhard - then you will only consider that version of the character). If he can Time Travel then you have the consequences described above.
It doesn't mean it can do anything possible.
If you take a less stronger version of Saitama (that doesn't know how to Time Travel), there can be always a probability not equal to 0 that a Saitama from the Future can appear and end the battle, because this is litterally what happened to the Saitama of the Present Timeline.
It doesn't mean that this probability is 100%, but it doesn't mean it is 0 either (as causality is reversed) so you need to account also that.
Also to Send Reinhard into Space he can just Sneeze. This again can still happen, unless you would argue that he have an absolute control over an involontary reflex.
Again, i dunno if you are accounting the Saitama from chapter 168 or the not yet updated one of the wiki vsbattle.
- 33
- 3
Indeed, i'm new to the site so i didn't know if he was arguing in reference of the Saitama from chapter 168 or the previous one.
I saw in other threads (like the one related to Saitama vs Goku) that many people already took in consideration the feat of the present chapter and they discuss around them.
Before chapter 168 i think Reinhard would win, after that chapter is slightly more debatable.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 9,232
- 12,280
This situation is just another Goku vs Reinhard, where Goku has AP to nuke but can't do anything to Reinhard, and Reinhard just one shot via matter hax, Saitama is worse version of Goku
- 14,643
- 20,253
Reinhard stomps
- Status
Similar threads
