Can 3-D characters have 1-A physicals?

[Ultima_Reality]

So, as we all know, the Tiering System is divided into two directions of power: Quantitative and qualitative. When we say the difference between X and Y is "quantitative," we mean exactly what's on the tin: It has to do with quantity. Some numerical determination keeping them apart. So the difference between 3 joules and 100 megatons is quantitative. So is the difference between 3 m³ and 10 km³. So is the difference between 2 universes and aleph-2 universes.

All quantitative differences are also continuous with each other, meaning you can add up a lot of small things to get a big thing. Put together a lot of 3 m³ cubes and you'll eventually cover a volume of 10 km³. Put together an aleph-2 amount of universes, and you'll have a High 1-B+ collection, even if the individual universes making up that collection are Low 2-C or somesuch. Same applies to higher-dimensional things; even if a physical square isn't a bunch of line segments "glued" together, it still has 1-dimensional sub-regions, and mathematically it is still a line segment multiplied by itself (Which is an uncountably infinite add-up).

"Qualitative" differences are another story. X is "qualitatively superior" to Y when the superiority it has over Y is not expressible by quantities of any kind, nor can be "divided down" into Y (The way you could, for example, divide up the aforementioned High 1-B+ collection into its Low 2-C constituents). Conversely, this means you can't "add up" to it, either. It's a total discrete jump from what's below it, there is no additive bridge between one and the other. So in effect they are superior because of the very nature of their existence. At minimum, these differences are 1-A.

As a result, we're a little stringent regarding anti-feats for those. Quoting the FAQ:

The potential disqualifiers largely revolve around the aforementioned aspect of inaccessibility: A qualitative superiority is completely irreducible to anything lesser than itself, and conversely, it cannot be reached by any additive process whatsoever.

The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers. Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context.

Secondly, a 1-A level cannot be attained by a process in which the lower level quantitatively "adds up" to itself to break through into the higher one, due to the total lack of structural continuity between the two; the higher level cannot be attained, nor expressed by, any expansions of the lower one, and therefore things from the latter cannot interfere with the former by means of their own lower existences. Put simply: A non-1-A cannot reach the level of 1-A by appealing to another non-1-A

In sum: No dispersal of higher into lower. No addition of lower into higher. We do also provide loopholes though:

However, there are ways to bypass this barrier. For example, a non-1-A can be empowered by a higher entity into being able to influence things on a qualitatively superior level. This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics). In neither case is the capability to reach into the higher level something emergent from the structure of the lower level, and therefore they are acceptable ways to get around the above hurdles.

Earlier, a question between me and @Agnaa came up, though: Can a character be physically lower-dimensional (Or, really, dimensional at all) and yet have 1-A physicals? Agnaa thinks that should be impossible due to the criteria quoted above. That is, a character cannot have (lower-)dimensional nature and have 1-A physicals, even if their power is sourced from a 1-A thing. Specifically:

Spoiler

1. A qualitatively superior force doesn't occupy space, and nor can be encompassed by space (Or anything made up of smaller constituent parts). If a lower reality character has 1-A physicals, this force would be encompassed by space (By being located in their bodies), and therefore wouldn't be qualitatively superior after all.

2. If a lower reality character has 1-A physicals, then this entails that they can, e.g. punch with 1-A force, but the force of physical attacks like this is inherently quantitative and so it is impossible for a qualitatively greater power to be outputted through them.

3. If a lower reality character has 1-A physicals, then this entails that their atoms have the innate durability to withstand qualitatively superior attacks. But ontop of similar considerations as 2, if other lower reality beings can, for instance, move them (e.g. Wield them as a weapon), this would be a contradiction to their power being qualitatively greater as well.

As he argues, the only way for a lower reality character to wield 1-A powers would be: a) The power just uses them as a point of reference, but isn't actually coming from them. b) The character acts as a sort of portal to a 1-A source, so that it receives damage in its stead whenever it's attacked. c) The power is sourced from a 1-A thing but doesn't have anything to do with their physicals (The most obvious and intersects with a).

As for me: Yeah, I don't see a problem with a character having ontologically greater power but not the physiology to match. In fact, I inserted this into the FAQ, which was supervised in the Tiering System presentation thread:

However, there are ways to bypass this barrier. For example, a non-1-A can be empowered by a higher entity into being able to influence things on a qualitatively superior level. This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics). In neither case is the capability to reach into the higher level something emergent from the structure of the lower level, and therefore they are acceptable ways to get around the above hurdles.

Which I thought was clear enough on the matter, but apparently was interpreted as talking about characters who are 1-A through powers unrelated to their physicals, or somesuch.

As for the points against the idea, there's a bit to say about them:

Spoiler

Point 1 presupposes that the "power," to be truly present in that character and belong to them, has to be circumscribed by spatial location. "True presence" = "Spatial location" is an unjustified assumption. Everywhere, not just in fiction but even in popular philosophy, you see examples of non-spatial things being affirmed as really present in material things, without this presence meaning they're contained by space, for example if you believe in immaterial minds/souls (i.e. non-spatial but still belonging to the people whose minds/souls they are). I'm fine with us being mysterians as to how exactly that presence works.

It also seems to assume that the power by which the character is 1-A would be some sort of mana pool or energy that's inside the character's body, for which "location" makes sense as an attribute (Or, does it? Is something like ki contained spatially inside you?). Another baseless assoomption by my lights.

Point 2 also has similar issues: Why would we take the character's attacks to deal damage in the same way the attacks of a normal person would? Especially if we are granting that they're being empowered by a 1-A thing (Remember, the argument is that 1-A physicals are impossible even through help from a 1-A source). Same goes for something like durability; why would we assume that the "toughness" which their physical body takes on in this empowerment necessarily is like regular toughness?

Point 3 is unironically the most interesting of the bunch. My instinct is really just to say "You could apply this exact same logic to a character or weapon that is 3-D yet has, say, 1-C physicals. We wouldn't say a a sword with 1-C AP being wielded by a 10-B would be an anti-feat." I don't think the quantitative vs qualitative difference (Before someone tries to use that as a gotcha) really makes the two cases fundamentally different when the logic of "This infinite/more-than-infinite power being expressed through a physical body means it shouldn't be able to be meddled with by things that aren't on the same scope" is the same for both.

EDIT: I realized the above logic is most likely inadequate, since we think it's fine for non-1-A Tier 1 things to be affected by, say, hax from lower beings, while thinking it's not fine for 1-A things to be affected in that way. So you could trace out a link between that and the point Agnaa is making. Will think further on this, but for good faith's sake I'll leave this scratched out portion here.

Nevertheless, the same logic as #2 up there goes here: Why would we assume the strength they gain from this 1-A empowerment is anything like ordinary material toughness at all, so that this logic applies to it? If they're enduring forces described as qualitatively greater and contending with them, and doing so specifically due to an empowerment from similar forces, then clearly it isn't.

So, yeah. Would appreciate thoughts on the matter.

 

[Antvasima]

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What do you think about this?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Being physically anything implies that the thing is part of you, which in case of 1-A power can not be. You can't have a real power contained in literal fiction.
If your power isn't part of you (e.g. is a real thing, while you are in fiction), then you do not physically have the stats it gives, you have passive "forcefields" powered by a higher "thing" external to you. See the blessing of a higher entity case, just that it's not a literal entity this time.
Incidentally, I'm in favor that the latter would actually need to be explicitly explained, not assumed just because some dimensional dude has some supposedly 1-A stuff, to not further sidestep all antifeats which are essential to the evaluation of these things.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Being physically anything implies that the thing is part of you, which in case of 1-A power can not be. You can't have a real power contained in literal fiction.
If your power isn't part of you (e.g. is a real thing, while you are in fiction), then you do not physically have the stats it gives, you have passive "forcefields" powered by a higher "thing" external to you. See the blessing of a higher entity case, just that it's not a literal entity this time.

Yeah, I've had similar thoughts before, myself. Granted I've also frequently thought of some edge cases where "1-A physicals" might make sense after all?

Specifically this is rooted in the fact that Low 1-A has no quantitative endpoint; there is no quantity or quantity analogue that you can come up with and say "You get any stronger than this, and you're 1-A." You try to do that, and you're just left with Russell's Paradox (Something like "The set-like collection of all set-like collections"). It's just like how 3-A has no finite endpoint you can point to and say "You get any stronger than that, and you're High 3-A." The only thing after that is a leap to infinity. Meanwhile between Low 1-A and 1-A there's only a leap between quantity and quality.

So, a baseline 1-A entity could in principle create structures of whatever quantitative size it'd want. It could create proper class-many universes, or conglomerate-many universes, and so on, but it couldn't ever create an actual collection of all possible Low 1-A levels, because there's just no such thing. So it basically reduces to "Has power over arbitrarily large material composites/collections, but isn't reducible to any of them." Put like that, being able to affect Low 1-A things of arbitrary size just is 1-A, since "Arbitrarily into Low 1-A" doesn't make much sense (What would that even mean?)

Seems to me that a lower reality character who has a 1-A thing (A metaphysical organ, a blessing from a 1-A being, whatever) that grants them "1-A physicals" would effectively be a case where, if you put any structure of a level below 1-A in front of them, they'd be able to destroy it, without their power expanding or anything of that like. Basically "They can punch things of any material size, but their power isn't exhausted by any particular size you can point to in this infinite row." Looks at least conceivable.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, I've had similar thoughts before, myself. Granted I've also frequently thought of some edge cases where "1-A physicals" might make sense after all?

Specifically this is rooted in the fact that Low 1-A has no quantitative endpoint; there is no quantity or quantity analogue that you can come up with and say "You get any stronger than this, and you're 1-A." You try to do that, and you're just left with Russell's Paradox (Something like "The set-like collection of all set-like collections"). It's just like how 3-A has no finite endpoint you can point to and say "You get any stronger than that, and you're High 3-A." The only thing after that is a leap to infinity. Meanwhile between Low 1-A and 1-A there's only a leap between quantity and quality.

So, a baseline 1-A entity could in principle create structures of whatever quantitative size it'd want. It could create proper class-many universes, or conglomerate-many universes, and so on, but it couldn't ever create an actual collection of all possible Low 1-A levels, because there's just no such thing. So it basically reduces to "Has power over arbitrarily large material composites/collections, but isn't reducible to any of them." Put like that, being able to affect Low 1-A things of arbitrary size just is 1-A, since "Arbitrarily into Low 1-A" doesn't make much sense (What would that even mean?)

Seems to me that a lower reality character who has a 1-A thing (A metaphysical organ, a blessing from a 1-A being, whatever) that grants them "1-A physicals" would effectively be a case where, if you put any structure of a level below 1-A in front of them, they'd be able to destroy it, without their power expanding or anything of that like. Basically "They can punch things of any material size, but their power isn't exhausted by any particular size you can point to in this infinite row." Looks at least conceivable.

Tbh though, thinking about it a bit more, it'd seem like this would just lead directly into "But the point is that a lower reality can't be in a state where their physicals can just punch arbitrarily big Low 1-A things, since that'd result in their power being qualitative, and the point is precisely that qualitatively greater power can't be a part of a lower reality thing."

I'll count myself as neutral on this debate for now. Will think this stuff through and come back later (probably).

 

[SamanPatou]

I'd say yes, because it's fiction and everything can be, sometimes it may be nonsensical, but that's just what things are.
It often occurs in verses with lots of tier 1 characters, where maybe for a reason or another a 3D character kills or defeats a higher dimensional being through mere 3D interactions simply because they can.

 

[Agnaa]

I agree with DT; I don't find the reasons for the power being outside of them convincing in the case of them having that power physically. If it applies to their physical blows and resilience to it, and doesn't satisfy any loopholes, then it has to reside within that space.

Yeah, I've had similar thoughts before, myself. Granted I've also frequently thought of some edge cases where "1-A physicals" might make sense after all?

Specifically this is rooted in the fact that Low 1-A has no quantitative endpoint; there is no quantity or quantity analogue that you can come up with and say "You get any stronger than this, and you're 1-A." You try to do that, and you're just left with Russell's Paradox (Something like "The set-like collection of all set-like collections"). It's just like how 3-A has no finite endpoint you can point to and say "You get any stronger than that, and you're High 3-A." The only thing after that is a leap to infinity. Meanwhile between Low 1-A and 1-A there's only a leap between quantity and quality.

So, a baseline 1-A entity could in principle create structures of whatever quantitative size it'd want. It could create proper class-many universes, or conglomerate-many universes, and so on, but it couldn't ever create an actual collection of all possible Low 1-A levels, because there's just no such thing. So it basically reduces to "Has power over arbitrarily large material composites/collections, but isn't reducible to any of them." Put like that, being able to affect Low 1-A things of arbitrary size just is 1-A, since "Arbitrarily into Low 1-A" doesn't make much sense (What would that even mean?)

I think this is an easy distinction to draw. It's the same one we draw between 3-A and High 3-A, 1-B and High 1-B, 1-A and High 1-A, and the two different types of High 1-A+. The contents are not the container. You should not let any portion of 1-A be considered equivalent to something which has constituent parts like that.

But I also think it doesn't matter too much, since....

Seems to me that a lower reality character who has a 1-A thing (A metaphysical organ, a blessing from a 1-A being, whatever) that grants them "1-A physicals" would effectively be a case where, if you put any structure of a level below 1-A in front of them, they'd be able to destroy it, without their power expanding or anything of that like. Basically "They can punch things of any material size, but their power isn't exhausted by any particular size you can point to in this infinite row." Looks at least conceivable.

This idea only lets you express baseline 1-A, it does not let a character who is any amount above baseline 1-A, yet has that power treated as distinct from baseline 1-A, operate. It'd still be limiting things a fair amount.

Tbh though, thinking about it a bit more, it'd seem like this would just lead directly into "But the point is that a lower reality can't be in a state where their physicals can just punch arbitrarily big Low 1-A things, since that'd result in their power being qualitative, and the point is precisely that qualitatively greater power can't be a part of a lower reality thing."

I'll count myself as neutral on this debate for now. Will think this stuff through and come back later (probably).

Good point! I'll pretend I thought of that, too.

I'd say yes, because it's fiction and everything can be, sometimes it may be nonsensical, but that's just what things are.
It often occurs in verses with lots of tier 1 characters, where maybe for a reason or another a 3D character kills or defeats a higher dimensional being through mere 3D interactions simply because they can.

I think this is a bad point. We've already crossed this point of treating 1-A and tiers below it differently by establishing these careful anti-feat requirements. We do not allow any nonsensical things to fly in 1-A/High 1-A/0, we're actually quite careful to make sure they meet our standards. And I do not think we should toss reason out the window on this one point.