Bringing Back Irrelevant Speed

[BleedingPeach]

Bump

 

[SomebodyData]

Transcedent speed is pretty on the nose but with how complicated tier 1 is already, I think that may be for the best. Count me in.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Antvasima we have 3 Admins agreeing with the CRT and DT hasn't responded in like 10 months. Do you want us to wait or give a response deadline and move on of there's no follow up?

 

[Antvasima]

I will try again to get the attention of @DontTalkDT and @Ultima_Reality via private messages first.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

I will try again to get the attention of @DontTalkDT and @Ultima_Reality via private messages first.

I don't think either are going to respond. It's been agreed upon and I don't see a reason to hold it up anymore.

 

[Mythic381]

I don't think either are going to respond. It's been agreed upon and I don't see a reason to hold it up anymore.

Ultima responded a couple hours ago to a different staff thread regarding 1-A and immeasurable speed.

 

[Phoenks]

Updated OP with staff votes; however, I don't think I actually have more than 2 admins unless I missed one. DDM seems to not have a strong opinion one way or the other.

Ultima recently commented that he thinks 1-As should at the least be automatically Immeasurable in speed, btw.

I'm fairly sure this a remnant from back when all of Tier 1, including 1-A and above, corresponded to extraordinarily big dimensional spaces (e.g. High 1-A was a space with an inaccessible cardinal worth of dimensions, or a set of things of such cardinality, and such). Nowadays since 1-A is by default transcendent over (in the sense of "superior to") distance and spacetime, auto-Immeasurable should be fine, unless someone's got separate objections to this?

In this comment he also brings up what I said in the OP, being that the previous tiering system, everything was based on some arbitrary amount/quantity of space. Including High 1-A, which was like inaccessible cardinal dimensional space or whatever.

That is the only reason Irrelevant did not work in the previous tiering system. As again, you could never be superior to spacetime in that system. 'Immeasurable' thus acted like a catch-all for any entity that bypassed linear time. And there could never really be anything beyond that, cause you'd always be tied to some higher temporal layer.

Now that we accepted that 1-As can and are in fact be beyond spatiotemporal space, there's simply no reason for those with BDE Type 3 to not also by extension be superior to our current speed tiers.

I don't really understand why he hasn't commented here, tbh. It seems pretty clear he has the same idea.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Mr. Bambu @Just a Random Butler @Agnaa @Celestial_Pegasus @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @GrathOfLux @Dereck03 @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist

Your help would be very appreciated here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

This logic doesn't work under the current tiering system, since it allows meta-spaces to exist.

You can effectively have a plane of existence whose size is qualitatively superior to material realms, and thus, crossing such a plane would both naturally and necessarily make your exhibited "speed" superior to any movement within said material realms.

I also don't get that last sentence. Being "faster" than a spatiotemporal character is really no different than being "stronger" than one, which we already accept. Thus, I don't see why that logic applies whatsoever. You can transcend the limitations of spatiotemporal entities in terms of potency in the same way you can for movement.

The "relationship" implied is one that, is in of itself, a system that operates on a higher-level than the systems of distance and time below it. So there's nothing about that which suddenly disproves this speed from existing.

Edit: What I mean to say is that 1-A meta-realms can have there own concepts/relationships between space, time, and causality which are ontologically superior and more real than ours. Their laws are relative to their plane of reality.

You are arguing by invoking non-speed-like relationships.
A character's incapability to move through a 1- realm is inconsequential to the matter of speed. Speed isn't a subject of where you can move, but of how fast you can move.
And of course there is a difference between being faster and being stronger. Speed and strength are entirely different things.
1-A meta realms can have their own spacetime-like things, but that doesn't matter to the question, as these don't allow for general superior comparability either.
You can't just invoke being "ontologically superior" for speed like you can for strength at all. You have to justify in which way these characters accomplish being faster and what being faster even means.
As I said in the other thread, a conception of a speed-like relationship means you have to be able to act "first". The character in question would be required to have the ability to see any kind of immeasurable character take an action and then do their own action prior. That requires a definition of what prior means, and hence a a time-like concept.

Not all 1-A characters can necessarily do that. If one were to draw a new line and say that Immeasurable stops at regular time dimensions (which currently isn't actually established - Immeasurable is perfectly happy to operate on any notion of ordered events as it stands) then you could say 1-A have a higher level due to being time dimensions +1. The notable thing here is, however, that you ultimately focus on having a time-like relationship once again which, ironically, would disqualify 1-As with truly no spatiotemporal features from having the ranking. Ultimately, it's merely separating the existing notion of Immeasurable in two parts.
Which one could do, but it would neither be about ontological relationships nor all that different from Immeasurable with a higher number attached.

It's not a lack of a speed value, though—since characters who operate beyond space-time can blatantly be observed to "move" in ways that are similarly superior to space and time.

If they actually have no spatial notion they don't move.

This is no different from how a 1-A character can project an avatar with more limited physical properties into the material world. Or simply not display those properties while existing within them. I don't see the argument there.

The point is that any speed-like action falls under spatiotemporal-concept-like behaviour.
You would less get a truly new speed rating, rather than just separate Immeasurable in two pieces. And ironically, the upper part is primarily reserved to those 1-As which least embody the essence of 1-A, namely those who still abide notions of time. Meanwhile, those 1-A who have no notion of spacetime, being truly beyond it not just being in a higher extension, would not get a rating.




TL;DR You can take the idea of Immeasurable speed to 1-A level and call it something else, but it won't be something significantly different. It will not be based in qualitative superiority. It will also not be something all 1-A have.
Meanwhile, the reasoning as OP provides, which views the key of "Irrelevant" speed in not abiding any notions of space and time fails to be a speed rating. The key is neither in the characters lacking a conception of distance nor in them lacking a conception of time. The only way it would work is to assume that 1-A conception of an order of events substitutes for the concept of time, so that at a 1-A level you can still accomplish things before other things, the same way an Immeasurable character does to lesser realities.


Edit: Basically, if you want to do "1-A can add more time dimensions on top of 'all time dimensions' and hence can have higher level Immeasurable speed that we should call something different" then I am fine with that. If you want to do "1-A characters are beyond absolutely any conception of time and that should be a speed tier" then I am not, as that's not a speed due to lacking the ability to act first.

 

[Phoenks]

Basically, if you want to do "1-A can add more time dimensions on top of 'all time dimensions' and hence can have higher level Immeasurable speed that we should call something different" then I am fine with that. If you want to do "1-A characters are beyond absolutely any conception of time and that should be a speed tier" then I am not, as that's not a speed due to lacking the ability to act first.

That is essentially what the "meta-space" I mentioned is. "Space/time" that is beyond space/time by virtue of possessing BDE Type 3.

I mean, you can compare to to time dimensions, yes, but the difference is simply that the gaps here are qualitative rather than quantitative. Thus the difference in how 'fast' the characters are is also separated by qualitative gaps, rather than quantitative ones like what we currently have with Immeasurable speed.

I even alluded to this idea in my OP, where I brought up how we already accept higher temporal dimensions as allowing characters to scale progressively higher into Immeasurable speed.

And in following that logic, it is only natural that 1-As would end up being superior to any level of immeasurable speed. Only that the gap would be qualitative in this case.

Speed isn't a subject of where you can move, but of how fast you can move.

You need both distance and time for speed.

"Where you can move" [distance] is literally half of the equation. So I'm not sure why you think characters below 1-A being incapable of travelling any amount of distance relative to a 1-A object, while a 1-A can, is inconsequential.

Not that it particularly matters, since BDE Type 3 is not only qualitatively superior to spatial axes, but temporal ones as well.

As I said in the other thread, a conception of a speed-like relationship means you have to be able to act "first". The character in question would be required to have the ability to see any kind of immeasurable character take an action and then do their own action prior. That requires a definition of what prior means, and hence a a time-like concept.

Again, immeasurable speed characters/non 1-As quite literally can't move anywhere relative to a 1-A. The distance they are capable of moving is quantifiably inferior to where a 1-A exists in retrospect. To a 1-A, they might as well be confined to a single nonexistent point on a number line. No matter how fast they go, how many temporal axes they can bypass or move across, they are incapable of travelling anywhere relative to a 1-A.

This applies both spatially and temporally.

It would literally be an anti feat if they could, since no amount of quantifiable space or time should be able to amount to anything on a 1-A level of existence, just going by our current guidelines.

So idk why you say they can't act "first." They absolutely can. An action from a 1-A can completely bypass the spatiotemporal existence that confines every tier below.

If you want to do "1-A characters are beyond absolutely any conception of time and that should be a speed tier" then I am not, as that's not a speed due to lacking the ability to act first.

Btw, I don't believe that I suggested it was beyond "any conception of time." But in case I did... no, I don't believe that. What I am suggesting is, in the the most simple description, Immeasurable speed but the gaps are qualitative, rather than quantitative. So yes, it's beyond quantifiable spacetime, but not beyond all concepts that could arise from the idea of spacetime.




As for if ALL 1-As qualify or not... well, based on what Ultima said, I'm inclined to say that they all are. But maybe there are some edge cases where it would be inapplicable.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, you can compare to to time dimensions, yes, but the difference is simply that the gaps here are qualitative rather than quantitative. Thus the difference in how 'fast' the characters are is also separated by qualitative gaps, rather than quantitative ones like what we currently have with Immeasurable speed.

It's really just all prior time notions +1. As far as you can call either notion quantitative or qualitative, they are of the same notion.
The qualitative existence property doesn't really factor into the result here, all that matters as that you can act "before" in one more "time axis".

And in following that logic, it is only natural that 1-As would end up being superior to any level of immeasurable speed.

Only if you draw an upper line on Immeasurable speed first. As it stands, this notion is just included under Immeasurable. You will need to modify the definition of Immeasurable to say that it only goes up to "all dimensional spaces"-many time dimensions before 1-As would end up higher.
And then not all 1-As. As said in the other thread, such a notion of speed isn't something that applies universally. Some 1-As may not have a nature where they can act prior to all events below-1-A space or just don't interact with time-like notions at all.

You need both distance and time for speed.

"Where you can move" [distance] is literally half of the equation. So I'm not sure why you think characters below 1-A being incapable of travelling any amount of distance relative to a 1-A object, while a 1-A can, is inconsequential.

Not that it particularly matters, since BDE Type 3 is not only qualitatively superior to spatial axes, but temporal ones as well.

Three things.

First, where you can move doesn't matter. Take higher dimensions. The fact that you can't move into higher dimensions doesn't mean beings that can by default are faster than you. This is the same. That a character can't move in a 1-A realm, doesn't mean a 1-A character is faster. That is a restriction of where it goes.
You're mixing where you can go with distance, which is already wrong. Your reasoning is that because you can't move a place, that must mean that those that can move there travel a greater distance. That is not the case. The reason you can not go a certain place can be something entirely different, than it being too far from you. And in this case, it definitely is no issue of it being too far away from the character; it's entirely an issue of it being qualitatively inaccessible to the character.

Second, distance is half the equation and the equation being inapplicable to you doesn't grant you anything. Look at our current speed rules on Immeasurable. The speed equation not applying to you is not enough, you need to fulfill very specific criteria. Criteria, which show that you would win in speed-related aspects of combat.

Third, you invoke a superiority which is not relevant to the debate. Being superior to Usain Bolt in Chess, doesn't make you superior to him in speed. Having qualitative superiority over spatial and temporal axis, is a superiority in quality, not in speed. It doesn't automatically justify being faster, you would need to justify how that generally lets them act first in matters of speed.

So idk why you say they can't act "first." They absolutely can. An action from a 1-A can completely bypass the spatiotemporal existence that confines every tier below.

If you have a dream, can you retractively change something you already dreamed? No. You can dream the world different at the time you see something happening, but not retroactively change what you already dreamed.
There are also author characters, who can write some lesser reality as a story, but not retroactively change what they already wrote.

How many 1-A smurfs do you think there are who slayed god-like beings due to those beings just watching the lower reality unfold in linear order? If you want to downgrade any verse where a 1-A character gets affected by smurfery they should have infinite time to react to from 1-A, then be my guest.

And a character without any notion of time, beyond the concepts of before and after, can't act before anything or else in in conflict with their own kind of BDE.


Fewer buzzwords of beyond this, superior that. We need a clear sense of "before" here, which includes defining in which sense in a 1-A realm something happens "before" or "after" an event in a non-1-A realm:
From a R>F 1-A perspective, lower reality has a plot progression. Actions can take place before or after some plot is written or some page is turned to. A 1-A character needs feats or nature statements of acting (and reacting) in reverse order of plot progression to get the speed level. Many will have that, but it's not a universal property.
And for non-R>F 1-As the question becomes entirely dependend of how their qualitative existence even works and could easily be of the "we have no sense of "before" and "after" at all and hence can't compete in speed comparisons"-type.