Breaking Bad Isn't 9-C

[BigSmoke4269]

Human durability varies

the reference used a dead 52 year old woman's bone, which took between 375 and 9920 joules to break. not exactly a peak human. walter's bones should be at least as strong, since he's around the same age and isn't dead (well, not at the time of the scene).

and not only did they not actually do it (simply imagined it might break his hand, which is a reasonable concern as a crew)

trivia video says that it was incredibly hard, and would have broken his hand. they seemed pretty certain.

but a hand is far easier to injure than any other part of the body.

bone breaking calc doesn't specify what bone is being broken, so i'm not sure it matters.

First, very temporarily holding up another person is absolutely within the territory of average human strength. I could do that, and I am not athletic at all.

anecdotal evidence. walt can lift up 70 kg with each arm. so he can lift 140 kg in total. if you can do that despite being a vs battles wiki user, maybe we should revise our lifting strength ratings. but as it is, he has athletic human lifting strength.

Second, the towel dispenser easily could've just been, in-universe, one made out of a weaker material or rather old.

i think it's safe to assume that, in-universe, the towel dispenser is the same material as it is irl. there is nothing to prove otherwise.

We don't know, and even if we assume the high end, it would really only be 10-A at best

bone breaking is not 10-A

(and, if I recall correctly, his hands were a bit messed up afterwards anyways - I'd need to check).

his knuckes were red afterwards, that's about it

Third off, being tortured doesn't translate to combat stamina. I could be tortured for weeks, that doesn't mean my physical stamina is higher just because my captors don't kill me. That's not how humans work.

how about walt staying up for 24 hours chasing a fly around while sustaining various injuries until jesse drugs him? or him briefly surviving after getting shot by an m60 machine gun, which had instantly killed like 7 other people? or the various beatings jesse has taken, both in and out of captivity?

All of the "mastery" arguments are obviously wrong on virtue of not understanding what actually earns these abilities.

so you didn't actually respond. great!

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

That towel dispenser was said to be pretty hard and would've broken his hand though

I swear I have already crushed a metal cup using my ******* hand even though I am an average human

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

I swear I have already crushed a metal cup using my ******* hand even though I am an average human

Shut up street tier

 

[Damage3245]

So we don't actually have a calc for the hand-drier punching... we're just assuming it was a certain level of strength because that would be what is required to hypothetically break Bryan Cranston's hand; even though said injury never actually occured...

This is the weakest justication for a verse I've ever seen.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Breaking (Bad) bones should be 10-B btw. I don't even know how the **** that is accepted as 9-C

Especially in the position that the leg was in, with two guys making it immobile. Breaking (Bad) bones is not so hard depending on the position and others *****, just look at an average Jiu Jitsu fighter

Now, if a guy completely fragmented a bone, then 9-C is fair, but it's something that didn't happen

 

[BigSmoke4269]

So we don't actually have a calc for the hand-drier punching... we're just assuming it was a certain level of strength because that would be what is required to hypothetically break Bryan Cranston's hand; even though said injury never actually occured...

This is the weakest justication for a verse I've ever seen.

well, it didn't occur because they took measures to prevent it, and there's also tuco. regardless, how would we calc him denting the towel dispenser?

 

[BigSmoke4269]

I swear I have already crushed a metal cup using my ******* hand even though I am an average human

tinfoil is also metal, the type of metal matters

 

[Jibz]

The 375 joules came from a Scientific American Journal where its considered the minimum joule count, increasing to 9900+ joules depending on the angle of the force. The experiment was also done on an a deceased 52 yr old woman which puts her in the same age range as Walter White. I say this so we can have as much context as possible.

Two things to note are:

Prior to the test, a machine cut the bone into fragments of identical shape and size

Walter has lung cancer, which can cause Osteoporosis. However ive never watched this series so 0 clue if he has it / if the cancer had spread to the bones at that point.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

actually, he punched the towel dispenser because he learned that he was in remission. he was angry because he knew that death would no longer be there to save him from the consequences of his actions.

 

[Swerzye29038]

 

[BigSmoke4269]

kid named fkid named fikid named fkid named finkid named fkid named finkid named fkid named fkid named fikid named f

 

[Qawsedf234]

Walter has lung cancer, which can cause Osteoporosis. However ive never watched this series so 0 clue if he has it / if the cancer had spread to the bones at that point.

When the feat happens the cancer is only limited to his lungs. He was going to have an operation to try and remove tumor material from his lungs which wouldn't really be possible if it got to the bones afaik.

 

[KLOL506]

When the feat happens the cancer is only limited to his lungs. He was going to have an operation to try and remove tumor material from his lungs which wouldn't really be possible if it got to the bones afaik.

He went back into remission once early in the series IIRC

I'm still at S2 of the show so I can't remember when it is. Possibly in the middle half I believe.

 

[Qawsedf234]

He went back into remission once early in the series IIRC

He went into remission because it shrunk by 80% and the scene happens after that. The operation was also about removing lung tissue rather than removing bone tissue afaik.

 

[SamanPatou]

anecdotal evidence. walt can lift up 70 kg with each arm. so he can lift 140 kg in total. if you can do that despite being a vs battles wiki user, maybe we should revise our lifting strength ratings. but as it is, he has athletic human lifting strength.

Where would this feat be in that clip?
Walter uses two arms to shove Jesse around and off the car, something that fits perfectly in the average human's capability.
If you refer to Walt taking him off the toilet, that's not lifting at all, he pulled his leg and made him fall down, something that doesn't require being able to lift 70 kg with a single arm, if you also consider Jesse's odd positioning that made him slip.

And using a second arm doesn't double your LS, such notion is mathematically incorrect and not even accepted by human standards.

how about walt staying up for 24 hours chasing a fly around while sustaining various injuries until jesse drugs him? or him briefly surviving after getting shot by an m60 machine gun, which had instantly killed like 7 other people? or the various beatings jesse has taken, both in and out of captivity?

I don't remember the first feat, but considering that humans can stay up more than 24 while doing several activities, it doesn't sound Superhuman, especially because we don't see all the 24 hours on screen.

I'd credit the second feat more to the injury not being instantanously lethal, and the nazis were pretty much riddled to death.

Jesse has always suffered and took damage from beatings and torture, surviving those and capitivity isn't Superhuman, otherwise you could give it to every single victim of a concentration camp.

 

[Moritzva]

Also, I can stay up for 24 hours myself. It’s not hard to do every once in a while, you’ll just get very tired and will pass out.

Which Walt did. He passed out.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

I don't remember the first feat

it’s from the episode dedicated entirely to them catching a fly

but considering that humans can stay up more than 24 while doing several activities, it doesn't sound Superhuman, especially because we don't see all the 24 hours on screen.

I'd credit the second feat more to the injury not being instantanously lethal, and the nazis were pretty much riddled to death.

Jesse has always suffered and took damage from beatings and torture, surviving those and capitivity isn't Superhuman, otherwise you could give it to every single victim of a concentration camp.

i am not trying to say walter is superhuman lol i’m trying to say his stamina should be higher than average

Also, I can stay up for 24 hours myself.

you mentioned that you aren’t athletic whatsoever, so i imagine that those 24 hours weren’t really spent doing anything

It’s not hard to do every once in a while, you’ll just get very tired and will pass out.

Which Walt did. He passed out.

he was drugged

 

[Joaco0902]

Bump, bitch

So from my understanding the AP feats for Walt and Jesse are these:

Walt punching the towel dispenser (flimsy at best, apparently)
Walt overpowering that tall guy with one foot*
Walt kicking open a locked door**
Jesse doing the same + destroying part of the frame***

All other justifications for them are via powerscaling which I guess is fine, but it's kinda weird when they're compared to characters who are clearly superior physically like Mike, Tuco and Hank. Them scaling to Saul is fine though.

*
** (beggining of the video)
*** (ending of the video)

 

[RiloKileyFan]

agreed with downgrades

 

[BigSmoke4269]

it's kinda weird when they're compared to characters who are clearly superior physically like Mike, Tuco and Hank.

fun fact: downscaling is a thing that does, in fact, exist

mike stomps walt by getting the jump on him twice. walt was going to get up within a few seconds of the first attack until mike kicked him in the stomach twice, which would hurt like hell whether mike was stronger than him or not.

tuco was able to hospitalize jesse by repeatedly hitting him with a bag of money, which is like if one character one-shotted another character with a baseball bat and we acted like that scaled to the first character’s physicals. when tuco actually starts physically beating jesse, jesse is fine afterwards, and he couldn’t have fought back because tuco had a machine gun and would have shot him to death.

hank is the only one of these characters who is clearly much stronger than walt and jesse, as seen when he beat jesse to near death. although i suppose you could make the argument that it was a pretty extensive beating, and jesse was caught off-guard and unable to fight back.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

i don’t see how breaking bones is any lower than 9-C when we literally have a calc on the reference page which puts it at that level

Breaking (Bad) bones should be 10-B btw. I don't even know how the **** that is accepted as 9-C

Especially in the position that the leg was in, with two guys making it immobile. Breaking (Bad) bones is not so hard depending on the position and others *****, just look at an average Jiu Jitsu fighter

Now, if a guy completely fragmented a bone, then 9-C is fair, but it's something that didn't happen

wrong bone breaking feat

 

[Joaco0902]

wasn't that the bone breaking feat that was listed on the profiles though

 

[BigSmoke4269]

no

 

[BigSmoke4269]

even if it was, it wouldn’t really matter. tuco breaks each of their legs with a single kick, so that means he’s consistently breaking bones. king said that tuco’s men holding the twins down helped him break the bones, but it really wouldn’t have, as the bone fragments in the study were also held in place. king also said that tuco would have had to shatter their bones in order for it to be 9-C, but that clearly isn’t true, as it takes at least 375 joules to merely crack bones. even 375 joules is a lowball, since we’re assuming that the stars ******* aligned so that their legs happened to be at the exact angle required to easily break them.

 

[Moritzva]

Stop ignoring basic physics for the sake of wanking, please. It is absolutely possible for a human person to break bones with strikes if they are extremely well-placed and the opponent is intentionally held down in a position to optimally break their bones, which is exactly what happened. You can break your bones via falling badly, that's not a 9-C feat, that's just physics.

Applying versus battles colloquialisms to basic, real life logic is a terrible idea. Just because we apply an oversimplification for more fantastical circumstances doesn't mean we will ignore observable, objective facts in favor of it.

Given the overwhelming support in favor of the OP, I think this is fine to apply.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

It is absolutely possible for a human person to break bones with strikes if they are extremely well-placed

tuco’s strikes were not “extremely well-placed”. he is an insane meth addict, not a martial artist. the dude doesn’t even know what cpr is called, i highly doubt he’s done research on how to optimally break a bone.

and the opponent is intentionally held down in a position to optimally break their bones, which is exactly what happened.

only for the second twin, when tuco told his men to do so. when tuco broke the first twin’s leg, his men were just holding him down to prevent him from flailing. for the second twin, tuco told them to hold the leg in place for a cleaner break. even then, i find it pretty unlikely that any of tuco’s goons know how to optimally break a bone. they don’t really seem like the type of people who would research physics.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

tuco is 9-C anyways, so i don’t see the point in arguing about whether or not he can break bones. it’s mostly a matter of whether or not walter and jesse scale to him, which i don’t think you’ve addressed since the op.

 

[Moritzva]

tuco’s strikes were not “extremely well-placed”. he is an insane meth addict, not a martial artist. the dude doesn’t even know what cpr is called, i highly doubt he’s done research on how to optimally break a bone.

only for the second twin, when tuco told his men to do so. when tuco broke the first twin’s leg, his men were just holding him down to prevent him from flailing. for the second twin, tuco told them to hold the leg in place for a cleaner break. even then, i find it pretty unlikely that any of tuco’s goons know how to optimally break a bone. they don’t really seem like the type of people who would research physics.

But... but they were. Holding someone down is exactly what you would do if you want to make it easier for a bone to break.

Also, I... I did address Tuco scaling. Tuco physically bodies Jesse and Walt, and Jesse can only barely hold his own. Given they are obviously seen as physically inferior, scaling is ridiculous.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

But... but they were. Holding someone down is exactly what you would do if you want to make it easier for a bone to break.

tuco explicitly tells them to put the leg in an optimal position the second time around. this implies that the first twin’s leg was not being held in that position, and they were just holding him down to prevent him from struggling.

Also, I... I did address Tuco scaling. Tuco physically bodies Jesse and Walt, and Jesse can only barely hold his own. Given they are obviously seen as physically inferior, scaling is ridiculous.

tuco only stomped jesse when jesse was unable to fight back (caught off-guard the first time and held at gunpoint the second time) and tuco was using weapons (a heavy bag of money to beat him down the first time, and a machine gun to prevent him from fighting back the second time). jesse being fine after an extensive one-sided beating from tuco should be enough to warrant downscaling. i should probably also note that the exact same attacks gave aaron paul an irl concussion and sent him to the hospital, while jesse was completely fine.

 

[Moritzva]

No, Tuco does not explicitly say that at all. He says "I'm gonna do this one real clean!" before breaking the man's leg. The first guy also had both ends of his body held down. Either you are lying or blatantly misremembering the scene.

Furthermore, no. Jesse and Walt clearly identify Tuco as an overwhelming physical threat that they could not hope to beat, and Jesse only got away fine because Tuco was literally shot with a gun. Had the fight gone on, Jesse would've been obliterated again. Given how human characters exhibit a large degree of variance and can contend with or be hurt by forces and people stronger than weaker depending on circumstances, that isn't at all notable. Common sense dictates this.

If your only argument is "Tuco got shot before he could destroy Jesse again", then this CRT has enough evidence to be applied.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

No, Tuco does not explicitly say that at all. He says "I'm gonna do this one real clean!" before breaking the man's leg. The first guy also had both ends of his body held down. Either you are lying or blatantly misremembering the scene.

he says “take it out! i’m gonna do this one real clean!”, instructing his men to hold the guy’s leg out. unless you can think of any other meaning for “take it out” in this context.
also why do you want me to be spreading misinformation so badly lol you keep saying that

Furthermore, no. Jesse and Walt clearly identify Tuco as an overwhelming physical threat that they could not hope to beat

they identify tuco as a drug lord who might want to murder them. i don’t recall them talking about tuco’s physique at any point. in fact, looking back at the scene where they plan to kill tuco, they consider gonzo to be a bigger physical threat, as they agree that he would take more shots to kill than tuco would. just because they’re terrified of him doesn’t mean he has an overwhelming strength advantage. it means he’s much more brutal than either of them and could decide to kill them at any moment.

Jesse only got away fine because Tuco was literally shot with a gun. Had the fight gone on, Jesse would've been obliterated again.

in better call saul, mike, a 9-C character, was put into a similar situation (beaten by tuco without being able to fight back, before eventually being saved). let’s compare him to jesse. tuco was beating mike for about 43 seconds, leaving him knocked out and covered in bruises. jesse was beaten for about 49 seconds (if we cut out the part where walter tells tuco about the ricin) and took no visible damage. shortly afterwards, he was running and jumping around to hide from hank. on mike’s profile, his beating from tuco is used as justification for his street level durability. why can’t it be counted for a character who took a similar beating and recovered almost instantly?

Given how human characters exhibit a large degree of variance and can contend with or be hurt by forces and people stronger than weaker depending on circumstances, that isn't at all notable. Common sense dictates this.

how does one account for this? to me it seems like this would just mean that any 9-C feat is actually 10-A or 10-B if it’s performed by a human.

 

[Moritzva]

I'm not going to keep repeating arguments, especially when your own arguments contradict themselves. Jesse was incapacitated by Tuco in only a few hits in their first encounter. Mike was able to fully endure direct hits from Tuco over and over while holding him in place for as long as he needed for the cops to come. The show itself directly and explicitly counters your argument.

The fact that you refuse to recognize these things and keep trying to represent it at anything but is just further proof that all the upgrades are forfeit.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

I'm not going to keep repeating arguments, especially when your own arguments contradict themselves. Jesse was incapacitated by Tuco in only a few hits in their first encounter.

i’ll repeat my argument!

tuco was able to hospitalize jesse by repeatedly hitting him with a bag of money, which is like if one character one-shotted another character with a baseball bat and we acted like that scaled to the first character’s physicals.

Mike was able to fully endure direct hits from Tuco over and over while holding him in place for as long as he needed for the cops to come. The show itself directly and explicitly counters your argument.

fully endure? he was ko’d lol

 

[Shadyboi0]

repeatedly hitting him with a bag of money, which is like if one character one-shotted another character with a baseball bat

idk

 

[BigSmoke4269]

true

 

[Moritzva]

Your argument is comparing a loose bag of money to a baseball bat.

Yeah, I'm not buying it.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

i'm not saying the bag was as strong as a baseball bat. i'm saying that tuco was using a weapon, so we can't use that to determine his attack potency.

 

[Galvino]

Tuco and Mike definitely > Jessie and Walter

 

[BigSmoke4269]

yeah, but not enough to warrant a difference in tiers.

 

[Moritzva]

I believe we have enough support to apply this.