Brainiac (DC) Split and Rework

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Brainiac's page is a half-baked composite. It's missing most of his stuff, and has unneeded ones in its place.

Because of this, I have spent the past month working on splitting it. The files I made can be viewed below:

1. Brainiac (Pre-Crisis)
2. Brainiac (Post-Crisis)
3. Brainiac (Post-Flashpoint)

Of note, changes made include

• Brainiac 1,000,000 key removed. He shows up for like, 2 issues, barely does anything but gloat, and dies. He didn't even do the 2-C feat, it was a prep feat that was (presumably) done over tme by regular Brainiac, and isn't even 2-C, but High 3-A, since it's only portions of timelines.
• Removed the Telos and Brainiac 13 keys. They're different people who should get their own pages.
• Much more expanded P&A for all Brainiacs, to much to get into here.

Please let me know any errors you spot, improvements you think of, or concern you may have, but please be civil and have proper backing for your points.

 

[Confluctor]

Shouldn't the H3A feat actually be 2C?

Other than, seems agreeable at a glance. Good work

 

[Armorchompy]

this seems like a great improvement

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Shouldn't the H3A feat actually be 2C?

Other than, seems agreeable at a glance. Good work

Post-Crisis or Post-Flashpoint?
I put the Post-Crisis one at H3A because it was goiing to destroy the timeline as a result of hitting it with several H3A attacks (more or less) and I put the Post-Flashpoint one at H3A because it's only bottling their futures, not their pasts.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

One thing I iforgot - High-Mid Regen for New Brainiac, I think.

 

[Confluctor]

Post-Crisis or Post-Flashpoint

Kinda both, but mainly post flashpoint

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I don't have a strong feeling on whether or not the H3A feats are Low 2-C personally. Does anyone else have opinions on that?

 

[LordTracer]

I don’t see where the 4-B is coming from on Pre-Crisis Brainiac’s profile, and the “Imbued Superman with the power to revive a dead sun” in the justification for his Mental Powers tier needs a scan. Also I don’t see why him overpowering Luthor would make him Wall level.

There doesn’t really seem to be a reason for his Relativistic+ rating, and he seemed to be keeping up with Superman just fine, so I would just put him at MFTL+.

His Self-Destruction seems less like a power and more like a weakness to me. For his equipment, the Attack Reflection looks more like force fields imo, but I could see it being either one. Also, you listed Magnetism Manipulation twice.

Everything else for the Pre-Crisis profile is good to go. I’ll go over the Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint pages sometime later.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I don’t see where the 4-B is coming from on Pre-Crisis Brainiac’s profile, and the “Imbued Superman with the power to revive a dead sun” in the justification for his Mental Powers tier needs a scan. Also I don’t see why him overpowering Luthor would make him Wall level.

There doesn’t really seem to be a reason for his Relativistic+ rating, and he seemed to be keeping up with Superman just fine, so I would just put him at MFTL+.

His Self-Destruction seems less like a power and more like a weakness to me. For his equipment, the Attack Reflection looks more like force fields imo, but I could see it being either one. Also, you listed Magnetism Manipulation twice.

Everything else for the Pre-Crisis profile is good to go. I’ll go over the Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint pages sometime later.

I can make a quick calc, but mass energy-converting stars is 4-B

Relavistic+ iis because his reaction speeds were directly compared to attackks which were described as light-speed, albeit slightly slower. The llikely is there because Superman doesnt always go at MFTL+ speeds, but i felt that ti was wrth nothing.

It's still wort indexing, even f it is a flaw. We do the sasme for characters with canonically bad luck.

Edit: Thanks for pointing out the lack of a scan for the imbue sun thing. ill get on that when im free..

Edit 2: Luthor has 9-B feats, like smashing up a work desk in a single striike but i forgot to index it and i really dont have the energy to look for it so im fine with downgrading him to 9-C for now.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems fine to apply to me. Great job.

I noticed and fixed some typos in the draft pages though.

 

[LordTracer]

I can make a quick calc, but mass energy-converting stars is 4-B

Ah, okay.

Relavistic+ iis because his reaction speeds were directly compared to attackks which were described as light-speed, albeit slightly slower. The llikely is there because Superman doesnt always go at MFTL+ speeds, but i felt that ti was wrth nothing.

Based on Brainiac’s statement, it seems like he was slightly slower because his energy drain was weakening him. Plus he says that he can make movements “just as instantaneously” as the light speed rays. The likely MFTL+ makes sense if Supes isn’t always going that fast, so maybe Speed of Light, possibly Massively FTL+?

It's still wort indexing, even f it is a flaw. We do the sasme for characters with canonically bad luck.

Okay, seems fine then.

Luthor has 9-B feats, like smashing up a work desk in a single striike but i forgot to index it and i really dont have the energy to look for it so im fine with downgrading him to 9-C for now.

Mkay.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Agree as well

 

[Antvasima]

So should this be applied, or should I ask for further input?

 

[LordTracer]

Looking at the Post-Crisis page now

• I think you accidentally put 9-C in the tier section instead of 9-B. Also the “Can ignore durability in a number of ways“ typically goes in the AP section, not the tier section.
• I would just put his last key as straight up Multiverse level+, since he scales above Parallax.

The High 3-A tier seems weird to me, but I don’t have that much of a problem with it.

As for the Post-Flashpoint page, my only input is that his 3-A feat seems more like Low 2-C since he’s rewriting the history of the universe as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[LuciferDC099]

I think High 3-A feats in Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint profiles should be Low 2-C. The rest seems good.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Teezar]

Your post flashpoint link on possible futures ain't working

 

[Swerzye29038]

There doesn’t really seem to be a reason for his Relativistic+ rating, and he seemed to be keeping up with Superman just fine, so I would just put him at MFTL+.

Although the changes have already been applied, I just want to quickly note here that the idea of Superman moving at MFTL+ speeds on a normal basis is (especially in combat) a pretty ridiculous notion

As for the Post-Flashpoint page, my only input is that his 3-A feat seems more like Low 2-C since he’s rewriting the history of the universe as well.

If it's only the history, does it count as a full universe+ feat? The universe only existed for a finite period of time in the past

 

[Swerzye29038]

Also while we're here, are none of the links working for anyone else?

 

[Teezar]

Although the changes have already been applied, I just want to quickly note here that the idea of Superman moving at MFTL+ speeds on a normal basis is (especially in combat) a pretty ridiculous notion



If it's only the history, does it count as a full universe+ feat? The universe only existed for a finite period of time in the past

Affecting time grants low 2-C

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I don't have a strong feeling on whether or not the H3A feats are Low 2-C personally. Does anyone else have opinions on that?

In regards to this. Technically if it affects only portions of timelines, and not its entirety, I will think it will warrant High 3A in the sense of time not being completely destroyed.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Affecting time grants low 2-C

Wouldn't it have to be a full timeline though?

 

[Teezar]

What I know od destruction of universes with mention of time grants low 2C if it's just space then 3A or H3A

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the summarised conclusions here so far?

 

[Kerfuffles2]

Is it too late to comment on this?

 

[Confluctor]

No, it's fine. Go ahead

 

[Kerfuffles2]

First thing is the history sections are slightly inaccurate. For Pre-Crisis, he doesn't come from the distant future, but rather from the "present" (i.e. the 20th century). For Post-Crisis, it's worded somewhat ambiguously by giving two separate origins; this is actually due to Infinite Crisis retconning Post-Crisis Brainiac's origins and overwriting the previous version to be invalid, which isn't well-reflected by the text.

Another thing is that Milton Fine is technically different from the 90s Brainiac shown under the "Milton Fine" section of the Post-Crisis file. Brainiac mind-controlled LexCorp scientists into reworking Fine's body through genetic engineering into a duplicate of his biological Coluan body. However, the stats shouldn't really be that different so this is potentially irrelevant. I think, but am not certain, that 90s "Ming the Merciless" Brainiac had technopathic powers that the Milton Fine version didn't.

Back to Pre-Crisis, since that's my forte: I'm not sure about "Water Manipulation" and "Pain Manipulation." In the scan for the former it's Brainiac's wall of psychokinetic force that's pushing the wave against Superman, not to imply a specific power to control water. And in the latter scan, it's that Brainiac's blast was powerful enough to harm Superman, not that the blast itself was designed to affect Superman's sensory perception. I'm not sure if "Self-Destruction" should be added either as if it were a power of the character, since that was explicitly that the device Luthor put in Brainiac's headcase would detonate if it were tampered with. Although he's rightfully listed as an intangibility user, Intangibility isn't listed as one of his powers as either Old or New Brainiac, even though there are feats for both (World's Finest #164 and Action Comics #417 for Old; New Teen Titans Annual (vol. 2) #1 for New). Old Brainiac also has Telepathy and Mind Manipulation even without any weapons or equipment, as he telepathically communicates with Superman in the void of space in Action Comics #528 and mind-controls the owner of an electronics store in Jimmy Olsen #130 (in addition to psychically compelling Jimmy, in the same issue, to reconstruct his central processing unit with a mental picture of the blueprint).

About the calculations for Pre-Crisis, I wouldn't assume that the mushroom-cloud explosion really had the force of an A-bomb (forget that it's a mushroom cloud), or that it should go towards Brainiac's durability, since Amalak was also in there and also survived. And Amalak doesn't have any special durability, at least on that scale. He was once knocked unconscious by electrocution and ultimately committed suicide with a garden-variety laser beam. I would favor the interpretation that Superman just yoinked Brainiac and Amalak out of the blast radius "just in time."

I would also recommend adding Brainiac 2.5 and Nanobot Brainiac to Post-Crisis and maybe considering the addition of Pulsar Stargrave for Pre-Crisis

 

[Antvasima]

@Kerfuffles2

Thank you. That seems fine to me.

So would you be willing to apply the required changes that you mentioned to the three draft pages in the first post of this thread please? Or would you be willing to handle it, @Confluctor, @Armorchompy. @LordTracer, or @Qawsedf234 ?

Also, do we have sufficient consensus here to apply the drafts to three new Brainiac pages afterwards?

@Amelia_Lonelyheart

Your input would also be appreciated here, given that you started the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

@LuciferDC099

Your help is also appreciated here of course.

 

[Firestorm808]

Seems okay.

 

[Confluctor]

i am a bit busy with other stuff, so can't do it rn

 

[LordTracer]

Unfortunately, I’m busy as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What about you then Firestorm808?

 

[Kerfuffles2]

@Kerfuffles2

Thank you. That seems fine to me.

So would you be willing to apply the required changes that you mentioned to the three draft pages in the first post of this thread please? Or would you be willing to handle it, @Confluctor, @Armorchompy. @LordTracer, or @Qawsedf234 ?

Also, do we have sufficient consensus here to apply the drafts to three new Brainiac pages afterwards?

@Amelia_Lonelyheart

Your input would also be appreciated here, given that you started the thread.

I don't know about my editing perms, but I'll give it a go.

I haven't done much on the VSBattles Wiki, so tweaking a couple draft pages would probably be a decent start.

At the same time, I think I should hear from @Amelia_Lonelyheart before doing anything since they're her drafts.

 

[Armorchompy]

Let's please wait for Amelia yes.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

First thing is the history sections are slightly inaccurate. For Pre-Crisis, he doesn't come from the distant future, but rather from the "present" (i.e. the 20th century). For Post-Crisis, it's worded somewhat ambiguously by giving two separate origins; this is actually due to Infinite Crisis retconning Post-Crisis Brainiac's origins and overwriting the previous version to be invalid, which isn't well-reflected by the text.

Another thing is that Milton Fine is technically different from the 90s Brainiac shown under the "Milton Fine" section of the Post-Crisis file. Brainiac mind-controlled LexCorp scientists into reworking Fine's body through genetic engineering into a duplicate of his biological Coluan body. However, the stats shouldn't really be that different so this is potentially irrelevant. I think, but am not certain, that 90s "Ming the Merciless" Brainiac had technopathic powers that the Milton Fine version didn't.

Back to Pre-Crisis, since that's my forte: I'm not sure about "Water Manipulation" and "Pain Manipulation." In the scan for the former it's Brainiac's wall of psychokinetic force that's pushing the wave against Superman, not to imply a specific power to control water. And in the latter scan, it's that Brainiac's blast was powerful enough to harm Superman, not that the blast itself was designed to affect Superman's sensory perception. I'm not sure if "Self-Destruction" should be added either as if it were a power of the character, since that was explicitly that the device Luthor put in Brainiac's headcase would detonate if it were tampered with. Although he's rightfully listed as an intangibility user, Intangibility isn't listed as one of his powers as either Old or New Brainiac, even though there are feats for both (World's Finest #164 and Action Comics #417 for Old; New Teen Titans Annual (vol. 2) #1 for New). Old Brainiac also has Telepathy and Mind Manipulation even without any weapons or equipment, as he telepathically communicates with Superman in the void of space in Action Comics #528 and mind-controls the owner of an electronics store in Jimmy Olsen #130 (in addition to psychically compelling Jimmy, in the same issue, to reconstruct his central processing unit with a mental picture of the blueprint).

About the calculations for Pre-Crisis, I wouldn't assume that the mushroom-cloud explosion really had the force of an A-bomb (forget that it's a mushroom cloud), or that it should go towards Brainiac's durability, since Amalak was also in there and also survived. And Amalak doesn't have any special durability, at least on that scale. He was once knocked unconscious by electrocution and ultimately committed suicide with a garden-variety laser beam. I would favor the interpretation that Superman just yoinked Brainiac and Amalak out of the blast radius "just in time."

I would also recommend adding Brainiac 2.5 and Nanobot Brainiac to Post-Crisis and maybe considering the addition of Pulsar Stargrave for Pre-Crisis

Brainiac's Pre-Crisis history is an utter mess that gets retconned a few times. I genuinely have no idea what the accepted history of him his, but I'm pretty sure what I wrote was elaborated in at least one story. Admittily I tended to read Brainiac's stuff before bed so I may've read it wrong.

I'm okay with removing water and pain manipulation. I put self-destruction on his main P&A since it's something that was on his person but I'll also be fine with removing it.

The Milton Fine stuff was kind of a mess. His Colulan body is defiantly stronger, but he doesn't stay in his regular human form long enough to warrant another key I feel.

We're supposedly getting new standards for weaker explosions because yeah...our current formula assumes every boom is capable of destroying everything in its area.

Brainiac 2.5 and Nanobot Brainiac are kind of to minor by our standards, I think I just listed their powers under Brainiac's regular P&A, so maybe we can word them as being apart of thsoe forms. Stargrave can be added but I've never read an issue of Legion, nor was I really sure how to handle them since their continuity weirdness so I decided to skip him.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the replies. It seems like we have reached some conclusions here then.

Would somebody here be willing to properly update the draft pages? Also, when their contents are applied in practice, somebody preferably needs to go through all of the relevant wiki links to the old Brainiac page, and redirect each of them to the right new pages.

 

[Kerfuffles2]

Brainiac's Pre-Crisis history is an utter mess that gets retconned a few times. I genuinely have no idea what the accepted history of him his, but I'm pretty sure what I wrote was elaborated in at least one story. Admittily I tended to read Brainiac's stuff before bed so I may've read it wrong.

I'm okay with removing water and pain manipulation. I put self-destruction on his main P&A since it's something that was on his person but I'll also be fine with removing it.

The Milton Fine stuff was kind of a mess. His Colulan body is defiantly stronger, but he doesn't stay in his regular human form long enough to warrant another key I feel.

We're supposedly getting new standards for weaker explosions because yeah...our current formula assumes every boom is capable of destroying everything in its area.

Brainiac 2.5 and Nanobot Brainiac are kind of to minor by our standards, I think I just listed their powers under Brainiac's regular P&A, so maybe we can word them as being apart of thsoe forms. Stargrave can be added but I've never read an issue of Legion, nor was I really sure how to handle them since their continuity weirdness so I decided to skip him.

Eh, Pre-Crisis Brainiac's history isn't that bad compared to the insane retcon olympics of the Pre-Flashpoint era, or whatever has been going on since Rebirth that I can't make heads or tails out of.

I understand folding "Ming the Merciless" Brainiac and Milton Fine's possession into one folder, since they're very functionally similar and narratively related forms, but the deal with Brainiac 2.5, Nanobot Brainiac, or the other robot Post-Crisis versions is that I don't think any of the 3 Post-Crisis keys categorizes them at present. From the image, I assume that "Vril Dox" is meant for the "real" Brainiac of Post-Infinite Crisis continuity -- the musclebound version that could fight Superman to a standstill from a purely physical perspective, and who was stated never to have actually met Superman or vice versa prior to Action Comics #868, on account of hibernating hundreds of years in a cyber-cocoon in outer space getting data feeds directly to his brain. In that continuity framework, all the previous Post-Crisis Brainiac appearances from before then were android proxies or nanotechnology or something else, which probably deserves their own incarnation for their separate feats.

The question whether you want to add Pulsar Stargrave as a key for Pre-Crisis Brainiac depends on whether you believe Stargrave actually is Brainiac. All of Stargrave's appearances in the Legion titles corroborate that he is. But then the "New Brainiac" from Action Comics #544 and onwards throws a monkey-wrench in Stargrave's timeline, and the Who's Who entry just embraces the contradiction by making a mystery out of it. At very least, the fact that Telos in Convergence could assume Stargrave's form along with the other multi-continuity versions of Brainiac indicates that Stargrave is Brainiac in some way. If you do decide to add him though, I can only imagine that Stargrave's stats will boost Pre-Crisis Brainiac's tier ranking substantially.

Anyway, another question here is whether you're willing to authorize letting anyone else edit the draft pages, so I'm not doing anything until you give your approval.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Kerfuffles.