Boros - Speed Suggestion

[Nehz_XZX]

I think this thread needs either feats, statements or a compelling explanation based on the context in order to really get anywhere.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Well as far as I know the most tangible evidence I can think of is mhs+ characters not leaving afterimages with their punches, unlike Boros

 

[Kachon123]

Well as far as I know the most tangible evidence I can think of is mhs+ characters not leaving afterimages with their punches, unlike Boros

?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

?

this is a single character, this is not every instance of a mhs+ character, this is a single page from the manga
it seems you misread my message maybe?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Even Hypersonic characters can create afterimages in OPM. They mean nothing for speed scaling.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with option 2

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Even Hypersonic characters can create afterimages in OPM. They mean nothing for speed scaling.

Well, then that's fine
I'm still in support of the confidence scaling though, everybody says it's flimsy but I don't see why, considering he should know the capabilities of his minions, as well as himself, and of course there's the fact that he's stronger in literally every other way, so it would also be unrealistic for him to not be faster to begin with when he's in "better shape" than his crew
also, man was literally standing right there, completely unfazed by geryuganshoop being outsped.
It just wouldn't make sense any other way, especially in the absence of anti feats I feel like this is the most probable justification

 

[Therefir]

Deleting the Threat level scaling was a mistake.

 

[LordTracer]

Deleting the Threat level scaling was a mistake.

Ngl, I agree.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I mean let’s be honest, in our minds I’m pretty sure none of us have any doubt that boros is at least mhs
are we really gonna sit here and nitpick about confidence scaling and narrative arguments when they’re pretty clearly true? I say we just cooperate to find a way to phrase it best, and put it in the profile one way or another

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I mean let’s be honest, in our minds I’m pretty sure none of us have any doubt that boros is at least mhs
are we really gonna sit here and nitpick about confidence scaling and narrative arguments when they’re pretty clearly true? I say we just cooperate to find a way to phrase it best, and put it in the profile one way or another

I wouldn't necessarily dislike that. We would have to gather all of the reasons why we think that though and phrase them as a valid justification that can be accepted:

• There is Boros being the strongest enemy Saitama faced at that time. In terms of speed and power Boros' third key is good enough for that and Boros' second key already fits the statement in terms of power with that possibly being the case for his first key as well. The statement could be considered to be already the case for his second key since Saitama already called him strong in that form and he faced a dilemma similar to Saitama's, so he probably didn't need to use Meteoric Burst for a long time. The problem is that outside of Boros' crew we don't have any alien lifeform that we could use for scaling and strength doesn't necessarily refer to speed even if it can be interpreted like that and that interpretation is pretty common for something like this.
• Boros was confident to face Saitama in his first key after seeing him defeat Geryuganshoop. The problem is that his first key already has far superior power compared to his crew along with multiple abilities that could have given him an advantage based on the impression of Saitama he had at the time and we don't have a confirmation of how well he perceived the details of that fight between Geryuganshoop and Saitama and if he could tell that Saitama performed an FTL feat though I personally doubt that he is entirely ignorant about what Saitama did since nothing really obscured Saitama movements outside of some dust, smoke and possibly the angle from which he observed everything. He should also be familiar with Geryuganshoop and the speed of Geryuganshoop's projectiles.
• There is the outdated statement of Boros and Awakened Garou being equal and it used to be applicable for the webcomic and the manga which makes it pretty clear that Boros is supposed to be much faster than Saitama's previous opponents since he wouldn't be equal to Awakened Garou otherwise and it's unlikely that ONE and Murata now view him as slower than they used to purely because they decided to make Garou stronger. The problem here is though that it wasn't specified which key of Boros would be equal to the Awakened Garou they had in mind back then, so his third key's ratings on their own are still enough to account for this.
• Melzalgald didn't seem to view the S-Class heroes he was fighting as impossibly fast and believed that he could finish them faster with Geryuganshoop's help which could indicate that he encountered or heard of something with that level of speed before which could indicate Boros scaling to the S-Class heroes Melzalgald fought. The problem with this is that he generally seemed to underestimate them and probably didn't think much other than that Atomic Samurai was fast when he got hit by an Atomic Slash. Geryuganshoop also took Melzalgald struggling as a sign of the people of Earth being really formidable, so if it wasn't for that and Melzalgald not assessing the S-Class heroes more accurately we might actually have had concrete evidence here.
• Melzalgald's feat against the Sky King who is roughly equivalent to the Deep Sea King would be good for at least upgrading Boros' first key if it wasn't done from behind as a surprise attack. One might want to argue here that if the Sky King was significantly faster than Melzalgald, he would have been able to react to being hit and able to attack back but given the nature of surprise attacks and their general portrayal in fiction it is far from anything concrete even if it is presumably to establish Melzalgald's superiority. You would probably have more of an argument with the Skyfolk monsters telling their ruler to get away since that kind of gives the message that they don't believe that he could successfully fight back but it's unlikely that they managed to find out much about Melzalgald due to all of this happening rather quickly. The idea of a random monster that Melzalgald happened to kill being significantly faster than him and the suppressed form of his boss which is still far superior to Melzalgald is kinda ironic though.

Is there anything else that someone can think of?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Deleting the Threat level scaling was a mistake.

No it was the best thing ever wdym.

How else am I suppose to laugh at Royal Ripper blitzing Melzalgald

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I wouldn't necessarily dislike that. We would have to gather all of the reasons why we think that though and phrase them as a valid justification that can be accepted:

• There is Boros being the strongest enemy Saitama faced at that time. In terms of speed and power Boros' third key is good enough for that and Boros' second key already fits the statement in terms of power with that possibly being the case for his first key as well. The statement could be considered to be already the case for his second key since Saitama already called him strong in that form and he faced a dilemma similar to Saitama's, so he probably didn't need to use Meteoric Burst for a long time. The problem is that outside of Boros' crew we don't have any alien lifeform that we could use for scaling and strength doesn't necessarily refer to speed even if it can be interpreted like that and that interpretation is pretty common for something like this.
• Boros was confident to face Saitama in his first key after seeing him defeat Geryuganshoop. The problem is that his first key already has far superior power compared to his crew along with multiple abilities that could have given him an advantage based on the impression of Saitama he had at the time and we don't have a confirmation of how well he perceived the details of that fight between Geryuganshoop and Saitama and if he could tell that Saitama performed an FTL feat though I personally doubt that he is entirely ignorant about what Saitama did since nothing really obscured Saitama movements outside of some dust, smoke and possibly the angle from which he observed everything. He should also be familiar with Geryuganshoop and the speed of Geryuganshoop's projectiles.
• There is the outdated statement of Boros and Awakened Garou being equal and it used to be applicable for the webcomic and the manga which makes it pretty clear that Boros is supposed to be much faster than Saitama's previous opponents since he wouldn't be equal to Awakened Garou otherwise and it's unlikely that ONE and Murata now view him as slower than they used to purely because they decided to make Garou stronger. The problem here is though that it wasn't specified which key of Boros would be equal to the Awakened Garou they had in mind back then, so his third key's ratings on their own are still enough to account for this.
• Melzalgald didn't seem to view the S-Class heroes he was fighting as impossibly fast and believed that he could finish them faster with Geryuganshoop's help which could indicate that he encountered or heard of something with that level of speed before which could indicate Boros scaling to the S-Class heroes Melzalgald fought. The problem with this is that he generally seemed to underestimate them and probably didn't think much other than that Atomic Samurai was fast when he got hit by an Atomic Slash. Geryuganshoop also took Melzalgald struggling as a sign of the people of Earth being really formidable, so if it wasn't for that and Melzalgald not assessing the S-Class heroes more accurately we might actually have had concrete evidence here.
• Melzalgald's feat against the Sky King who is roughly equivalent to the Deep Sea King would be good for at least upgrading Boros' first key if it wasn't done from behind as a surprise attack. One might want to argue here that if the Sky King was significantly faster than Melzalgald, he would have been ble to react to being hit and able to attack back but given the nature of surprise attacks and their general portrayal in fiction it is far from anything concrete even if it is presumably to establish Melzalgald's superiority. You would probably have more of an argument with the Skyfolk monsters telling their ruler to get away since that kind of gives the message that they don't believe that he could successfully fight back but it's unlikely that they managed to find out much about Melzalgald due to all of this happening rather quickly. The idea of a random monster that Melzalgald happened to kill being significantly faster than him and the suppressed form of his boss which is still far superior to Melzalgald is kinda ironic though.

Is there anything else that someone can think of?

Can’t really think of anything else so seems good to me

 

[LordTracer]

There is the outdated statement of Boros and Awakened Garou being equal and it used to be applicable for the webcomic and the manga which makes it pretty clear that Boros is supposed to be much faster than Saitama's previous opponents since he wouldn't be equal to Awakened Garou otherwise and it's unlikely that ONE and Murata now view him as slower than they used to purely because they decided to make Garou stronger. The problem here is though that it wasn't specified which key of Boros would be equal to the Awakened Garou they had in mind back then, so his third key's ratings on their own are still enough to account for this.

We are most definitely not going to use that statement in any way, shape or form. It’s webcomic-only.

 

[Recon1511]

Released Boros getting downgraded to Hypersonic and probably Supersonic+ and this thread still hasn't been resolved

 

[Recon1511]

Is there really any solid argument here against confidence scaling Boros's speed? He literally stood there seeing how his minion, who can throw objects at near light speed, got humiliated and blitzed and still confidently approached Saitama thinking he could take him on

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/released-boros-speed-downgrade.145914/#post-5289373

1. Boros is able to follow and keep up with Saitama's "test punches", which blitz other MHS+ monsters. (I know we don't scale people to his punches, but this punch is specifically named through WOG to be the punch he uses against most opponents, so its qualities should be consistent.)
2. Boros was happy that his minions were nothing to Saitama, including Geryuganshoop, who can throw rocks at 75% sol. Sure, there's an argument to be made that he didn't see the 4 x Sol feat, but he definitely knows what his generals can do, and they clearly are nothing to him, even in his armored form.
3. Saitama says Boros is strong, really strong, yet views 75% Sol attacks as an absolute joke. Boros wouldn't be taken seriously if he was moving as fast as a bad joke.

These are just some of the more solid ways he upscales.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/released-boros-speed-downgrade.145914/#post-5289373

Boros having vastly higher AP than his minions and being called “strong” isn’t concrete evidence for a speed upgrade, but if the mentioned WoG statement can be provided than I can see MHS+ scaling upscaling from the previous opponents that got blitzed

I know we don't scale people to his punches, but this punch is specifically named through WOG to be the punch he uses against most opponents, so its qualities should be consistent.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Boros having vastly higher AP than his minions

He's vastly superior to his minions overall

and being called “strong”

Hmmmmmmm

but if the mentioned WoG statement can be provided than I can see MHS+ scaling upscaling from the previous opponents that got blitzed

Someone made a thread about it, but there wasn't any conclusion

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

Boros is able to follow and keep up with Saitama's "test punches", which blitz other MHS+ monsters. (I know we don't scale people to his punches, but this punch is specifically named through WOG to be the punch he uses against most opponents, so its qualities should be consistent.)

Wouldn't this just inflate ratings since, even though Saitama 1 shots his opponents, most can still react to it?

Boros was happy that his minions were nothing to Saitama, including Geryuganshoop, who can throw rocks at 75% sol. Sure, there's an argument to be made that he didn't see the 4 x Sol feat, but he definitely knows what his generals can do, and they clearly are nothing to him, even in his armored form.

Yeah but it's mostly that he saw them do nothing, so could be confident his strength would be enough to damage Saitama, not necessarily keep up. He can still be confident while being slower than someone's attack speed. don't know if Gerygansnolp even scales to his throwing pitches tbh lol
Especially since he had his trump card which also kicked Saitama to the moon near light speed.

Saitama says Boros is strong, really strong, yet views 75% Sol attacks as an absolute joke. Boros wouldn't be taken seriously if he was moving as fast as a bad joke.

AP =/= speed. Being strong doesn't mean you're fast. Can Saitama even actually sense how strong someone is? And Saitama only took him seriously in a sense that he allowed him to go all out. Even after everything Boros could possibly do, he knew Saitama didn't try at all anyway.

That's my limited take on this. I'm mostly in different as long as his last key isn't anything above Rel+ since it would inflate results compared to feats and statements. So yeah.also hypersonic boros just sounds better anyway

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

He's vastly superior to his minions overall

That’s not really explicitly stated to my knowledge.

Hmmmmmmm

That seems like baseless speculation. Saitama calling Boros “strong” refers to his strength, not his overall fighting style.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

most can still react to it

Most are unable to react to it, what.

could be confident his strength would be enough to damage Saitama, not necessarily keep up.

Boros was confident in being able to fight Saitama. It's not only about his strength. It's about being able to fight with a foe that took out his generals and reacted to one's near lightspeed attacks

Being strong doesn't mean you're fast

baseless speculation

Boros when first going Released, we see him charging up up his energy in a similar fashion as to how when he went Meteoric Burst.

When Boros went MB, he lunged towards Saitama using his speed to try to get an advantage on Saitama. We could assume that that is the way that Boros fights. It could very well be the same for when Saitama fought Released Boros.

When we get to see Released Boros vs Saitama, it's clear that Boros' fighting style revolves around using his speed and power to overwhelm his opponent. It's not just power, or just speed. It's a combination of both.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

You just reposted the quote I responded to without refuting my actual argument.

Saitama calling Boros “strong” refers to his strength, not his overall fighting style.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

Most are unable to react to it, what.

Wasn't Genos able to see Saitama punch a giant hole in the mountain? Or later Garou in his human form after angering Saitama he was still able to see him move and feel pain? I think it's just better to see the actual author statement in that case. also maybe mhs+ calcs need to be checked upon too if FTE Released Boros is passed off as super fast in the series

Boros was confident in being able to fight Saitama. It's not only about his strength. It's about being able to fight with a foe that took out his generals and reacted to one's near lightspeed attacks

Why not only about strength? There are fighters in fiction who think they just need raw power to beat someone. Why is Boros confidence even taken as proof for his power and speed instead of overconfidence? Just because Saitama could beat Geryuganshoop after he survived his attacks doesn't mean much IMO. You could still beat someone even if they have a faster attack speed. Example of this would be humans without guns outmanuvering and overpowering others with guns without being faster than the bullets.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Pretty sure Saitama said "strong" is referring to his strength, not to his speed.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Wasn't Genos able to see Saitama punch a giant hole in the mountain?

Genos is a human cyborg hero whom Saitaam has taken as his disciple. Not a monster that Saitama has no problem killing

Or later Garou in his human form after angering Saitama he was still able to see him move and feel pain?

Saitama thought that Garou was a robber disturbing his shopping. Again, not a monster

also maybe mhs+ calcs need to be checked upon too if FTE Released Boros is passed off as super fast in the series

Even smol child Tareo can perceive MHS+ 10-second mode Genos fr fr

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Saitama calling Boros “strong” refers to his strength, not his overall fighting style.

Saitama called Boros strong after they had a fight that resulted in the loss of Boros' arm and marks on Saitama. The way that Boros fights is described above

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Saitama called Boros strong after they had a fight that resulted in the loss of Boros' arm and marks on Saitama. The way that Boros fights is described above

And? Why does this mean “strong” refers to speed?

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

Genos is a human cyborg hero whom Saitaam has taken as his disciple. Not a monster that Saitama has no problem killing

He still asked Saitama to take him serious, and so he did for a moment, which Genos saw.

Saitama thought that Garou was a robber disturbing his shopping. Again, not a monster

Don't think that works when Garou was slammed into concrete IIRC lmao
Definitely pissed off enough to be a "test punch"

Even smol child Tareo can perceive MHS+ 10-second mode Genos fr fr

Yeah it's extremely sus. Downgrade away.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

When we get to see Released Boros vs Saitama, it's clear that Boros' fighting style revolves around using his speed and power to overwhelm his opponent. It's not just power, or just speed. It's a combination of both.

Hypersonic is still fast and would do the job. It even emphasizes average humans can't react.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

snip

But that’s just your interpretation. Nothing dictates Saitama’s “you’re strong” remark was referring to Boros’ overall fighting style or overall stats.

It just means he’s physically strong.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer Why would Saitama compliment about his speed? This makes no sense. Also, let's go deeper, since when is speed “strong”? The only explanation I can find is his physical strength being strong grammatically.

 

[Recon1511]

I mean Hypersonic for this verse is slow as **** lol, he is barely above the low tiers and some featless mid tiers.

 

[Recon1511]

Hell even the old Iaian bullet cutting feat calc is over 4 times higher than Released Boros speed, and he is just one of the top mid tiers.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I mean Hypersonic for this verse is slow as **** lol, he is barely above the low tiers and some featless mid tiers.

Hell even the old Iaian bullet cutting feat calc is over 4 times higher than Released Boros speed, and he is just one of the top mid tiers.

It really make no sense for Released Boros to be this slow when he's narratively one of the most formidable opponents that Saitama ever fights

 

[Recon1511]

Hell the calc is barely above Dry Deep Sea King's and Pre-Training Sonic speed (and both of them upscale from said value)

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I mean we don’t have a Verse mechanic like Dragon Ball where having higher AP automatically means having higher speed so these examples don’t add much.

 

[Cryo123]

Boros having vastly higher AP than his minions and being called “strong” isn’t concrete evidence for a speed upgrade,

I mean if one of Boros' minions was able to throw thing millions of times faster than he could move/react, then they wouldn't be nothing to him, even if they couldn't hurt him.

For example, Sonic is way faster than DSK, but couldn't hurt him at all, yet he wasn't considered "nothing" to DSK.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I mean if one of Boros' minions was able to throw thing millions of times faster than he could move/react, then they wouldn't be nothing to him, even if they couldn't hurt him.

For example, Sonic is way faster than DSK, but couldn't hurt him at all, yet he wasn't considered "nothing" to DSK.

Geryu’s Relativistic+ attack speed is specific to his hax ability to negate the friction of the objects he throws, his own movement and reaction speed is Supersonic+. Geryu would still be “nothing” to Boros in a fight due to his vastly lower physical speed.

Also 6-C attacks would be like raindrops to a dude with High 6-A durability.

 

[Cryo123]

Geryu’s Relativistic+ attack speed is specific to his hax ability to negate the friction of the objects he throws, his own movement and reaction speed is Supersonic+. Geryu would still be “nothing” to Boros in a fight due to his vastly lower physical speed.

He could just toss Boros around. Or launch himself away. Even still, it's a pretty strong hax ability.