Bloodborne if it came out in 2007: Optimus Prime vs Ludwig the Holy Blade

[Naito-desu]

Spoiler: Prologue

"To think man would reach such depths... This city has remained nothing but a grim reminder of what happens when we play with powers beyond our control." The Prime said as he wandered the accursed Hunter's Nightmare, squashing all manners of beasts that looked human yet were mutated beyond saving. The folly of man saddened him as he continued his trek before finding a door that seeped blood.

Being too large to fit through the tunnel, the Autobot simply crashed through it as he could sense a presence here unlike others. Clumsily weaseling his way through the tunnel, he sees a room with some manner of beast at the other end, hearing the whispers of a dry, dying corpse.

"Ahh, ahh, please... help us... Ah... An unsightly beast... A great terror looms! Ahh... Ludwig the Accursed is coming. Have mercy... Have mercy upon us..."

Prime readied his swords as this Ludwig creature lunged at him like the mad beast it was.

• Both are 8-A, Optimus Prime is at Base
• Optimus Prime has his 2007 movie equipment and is equipped with his flightpack/jetpack
• Ludwig has the Moonlight Greatsword but starts out as Ludwig the Accursed
• Speed is equalized
• Battle takes place in Ludwig's Arena

"WHAT I'VE DONEEEE": 1

"Ah, you were at my side, all along...":

 

[Dinamic8000]

Would Optimus chainsaw and the energon weapons be considered like the saws and fire enchantments of Bloodborne?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Would Optimus chainsaw and the energon weapons be considered like the saws and fire enchantments of Bloodborne?

When did he use a chainsaw? And are energon weapons superheated or something?

 

[Naito-desu]

Would Optimus chainsaw and the energon weapons be considered like the saws and fire enchantments of Bloodborne?

He doesn't have his DoTM gear, he only has his 2007 equipment

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

When did he use a chainsaw? And are energon weapons superheated or something?

It varies. His chainsaw isn't heated, but his blades are, and his blades are hot enough to cut through other transformers, who can tank re entry heat with no damage.

Also is this is his 2007 gear, it means an ion blaster and heat arm mounted blades only

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Apparently he doesnt hav those here?

 

[Dinamic8000]

When did he use a chainsaw? And are energon weapons superheated or something?

He doesn't have his DoTM gear, he only has his 2007 equipment

I saw now we are considering only the equipment of he first movie, sorry

Doing a little research it seems the blades are superheated, but even if they don't i think Optimus takes this one

First off, i really think the flightpack/jetpack should be restricted, with that Optimus could just stay on the top of the arena and rely on firearms, where the beast could only reach by the occasional energy attacks of the Moonlight Sword

Ludwing have more AP, but besides that his skills are affected by the old blood, like all big bosses in Soulsborne it is not difficult to land an hit on him. On other hand Optimus have acrobatics and lots of experience on fighting enemies of his size

The only plausible situation where Ludwing could win is if he grapes Optimus and overcomes his forcefields and high-Low regeneration, which is also unlikely since both have similar LF

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Apparently he doesnt hav those here?

It's in his 2007/ROTF equipment section

Stuff like the chainsaw come from the games, which we treat as canon, but that doesn't really matter since this is strictly with his 2007/ROTF gear.

Also Jetpack can't be used because that's part of the DOTM gear

 

[Naito-desu]

since both have similar LF

Optimus prime actually has the LS advantage, 400,000 tons versus the 40-50k tons of Bloodborne

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Optimus prime actually has the LS advantage, 400,000 tons versus the 40-50k tons of Bloodborne

Where are you getting 400,000 tons scaling to Optimus? He never lifted the Driller so he has no reason to have that be the basis of his lifting strength

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Where are you getting 400,000 tons scaling to Optimus? He never lifted the Driller so he has no reason to have that be the basis of his lifting strength

Optimus can physically push back the driller pushing at him.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Optimus can physically push back the driller pushing at him.

Thats not the same as lifting the entire Driller all at once though

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

IDK, I wasn't the one who put the justification there. He also has another Class M feat scaling to Megatron

Class M (Effortlessly pushed a USS Topeka submarine out of the water with one arm. The USS Topeka can displace 6229 tonnes when full)

 

[WeeklyBattles]

IDK, I wasn't the one who put the justification there. He also has another Class M feat from Megatron

That one is fine but the Driller feat isnt

 

[WeeklyBattles]

IDK, I wasn't the one who put the justification there.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/possible-slight-bayverse-transformers-downgrade.142191/

 

[Naito-desu]

I saw now we are considering only the equipment of he first movie, sorry

Doing a little research it seems the blades are superheated, but even if they don't i think Optimus takes this one

First off, i really think the flightpack/jetpack should be restricted, with that Optimus could just stay on the top of the arena and rely on firearms, where the beast could only reach by the occasional energy attacks of the Moonlight Sword

Ludwing have more AP, but besides that his skills are affected by the old blood, like all big bosses in Soulsborne it is not difficult to land an hit on him. On other hand Optimus have acrobatics and lots of experience on fighting enemies of his size

The only plausible situation where Ludwing could win is if he grapes Optimus and overcomes his forcefields and high-Low regeneration, which is also unlikely since both have similar LF

Is that a vote for Prime?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Doing a little research it seems the blades are superheated

That would work against his Accursed state, but not his Holy Blade state. When he switches from Accursed to Holy Blade he loses the weakness to serrated weapons and fire and actually gains a resistance to fire and heat on the level of resisting the heat of active lava.

Ludwing have more AP, but besides that his skills are affected by the old blood, like all big bosses in Soulsborne it is not difficult to land an hit on him. On other hand Optimus have acrobatics and lots of experience on fighting enemies of his size

Again, that would only apply at the start while Ludwig is in Accursed state. Once he is in his Holy Blade state his skill and mental clarity as a Hunter return to him and he regains his skill as one of the most skilled fighters in the verse. Acrobatics will only help so much against the Moonlight Greatsword considering it has pretty huge AoE with its magic attacks, and fighting enemies his size actually wont come into play here, Ludwig is a good amount shorter than Optimus (6.5m vs 8.5m) which actually plays into Ludwig's favor as Hunters are exceedingly experienced at fighting larger opponents.

The only plausible situation where Ludwing could win is if he grapes Optimus and overcomes his forcefields and high-Low regeneration, which is also unlikely since both have similar LF

If the downgrade happens, Ludwig will have a sizable LS advantage. High-Low isnt exactly a game changing level of regen, and it wont save him from getting impaled with a giant sword.

 

[Naito-desu]

Optimus Prime won't just stand there and take it though, IMO he's more skilled than Ludwig and more mobile than Ludwig. Besides if Ludwig's arena proves to be too restricting, it's not like Optimus hasn't gone through buildings before in the movies.

 

[Naito-desu]

Once he is in his Holy Blade state his skill and mental clarity as a Hunter return to him and he regains his skill as one of the most skilled fighters in the verse.

No shade to Ludwig but he only just gets his humanity back in the middle of the fight, and irregardless of any experience and skill that he might have accumulated as a Hunter. Where's the proof that he comes back at his full potential and mental capacity during his fight with us?

And moreover, is his skill even comparable to that of Optimus who actually has a tried record of fighting similarly sized opponents as a military leader and literal veteran of the Cybertrnian war, to a barely conscious Ludwig who spent likely a majority of his time as a brainless horse mutant which would likely be hard to apply his human skill to?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Optimus Prime won't just stand there and take it though, IMO he's more skilled than Ludwig and more mobile than Ludwig. Besides if Ludwig's arena proves to be too restricting, it's not like Optimus hasn't gone through buildings before in the movies.

Implying Ludwig will...?

What feats does he have that puts him above Ludwig in skill?

No shade to Ludwig but he only just gets his humanity back in the middle of the fight, and irregardless of any experience and skill that he might have accumulated as a Hunter.

That would genuinely work in Ludwig's favor tbh, Optimus will more than likely be caught off guard when the berserk monster he was fighting suddenly stands upright and actually starts fighting like a skilled warrior.

Where's the proof that he comes back at his full potential and mental capacity during his fight with us?

Easy, its the fact that he drops the Guidance rune when killed, the rune that was inscribed in his mind as a Hunter that was lost when he became a Beast, only to return when he goes Holy Blade, as well as the fact that he loses the weaknesses to both serrated and fire damage as Holy Blade, meaning he is no longer a Beast.

And moreover, is his skill even comparable to that of Optimus who actually has a tried record of fighting similarly sized opponents as a military leader and literal veteran of the Cybertrnian war, to a barely conscious Ludwig who spent likely a majority of his time as a brainless horse mutant which would likely be hard to apply his human skill to?

Thats rather vague my guy, what specific feats of skill does he have?

 

[Dinamic8000]

Even if Ludwing regains all his knowledge as a hunter he still remains anatomically a beast, for which the hunter weapons weren't made for. It is odd to think what he would be 100% like his past self in that state

A small detail that seems to indicate that is due to his boss battle having a lot of similarities with Artorias one, both legendary warriors corrupted and driven to madness in another plane/era. And canonically Artorias is way past his prime during the fight due to the broken arm

Nonetheless, if we follow mechanically the game Ludwing would only pull out the Moonlight Sword after half of his HP is gone, giving Optimus a big advantage

Is that a vote for Prime?

Yes

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Thats rather vague my guy, what specific feats of skill does he have?

Fought evenly against Megatron, Starscream, and Grindor, each of which are generally comparable to him, and started to pretty much stomp them until he got distracted and stabbed in the back.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Fought evenly against Megatron, Starscream, and Grindor, each of which are generally comparable to him, and started to pretty much stomp them until he got distracted and stabbed in the back.

I see

Ludwig has been fighting and killing Hunters for so long and so numerously that a constantly flowing river of blood formed from the remains of their corpses, and he is considered one of the most skilled Hunters in the verse, only behind Maria and Gehrman in skill, with him personally training the majority of Hunters in the various fighting styles and with the various weapons they use, with even fodder hunters being able to casually dual wield weapons considered too unruly for humans as well as fight completely blind

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Even if Ludwing regains all his knowledge as a hunter he still remains anatomically a beast, for which the hunter weapons weren't made for. It is odd to think what he would be 100% like his past self in that state

I'm not sure what you mean? He is very blatantly shown to be able to wield the Holy Moonlight Sword just fine. It's not like he has no arms or something, hes not wielding it with his mouth lie Sif, he is effectively just a mutated centaur.

A small detail that seems to indicate that is due to his boss battle having a lot of similarities with Artorias one, both legendary warriors corrupted and driven to madness in another plane/era. And canonically Artorias is way past his prime during the fight due to the broken arm

That's a false equivalency my guy, it's not even the same game.

Nonetheless, if we follow mechanically the game Ludwing would only pull out the Moonlight Sword after half of his HP is gone, giving Optimus a big advantage

Not as big as youd think actually, even Optimus' flight isnt gonna be super useful due to them being in an enclosed space and Ludwig even in his Accursed state being able to jump dozens of meters in the air as well as having his own gross projectile magic attacks

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

What's the AP Difference here again?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

What's the AP Difference here again?

Optimus upscales from 305 tons, Ludwig upscales from 673 tons

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Optimus upscales from 305 tons, Ludwig upscales from 673 tons

OOF. That's gonna be rough to deal with but not impossible. I think Optimus' Heat Blades are gonna be really useful here considering they bypass Cybertronians' Heat Resistance which can No-Sell Reentry heat which is hotter than lava btw (Reentry is 3,000 Degrees Fahrenheit while Lava is 2,200 Degrees Fahrenheit). Also his infinite ammunition is gonna make short work of Ludwig while he's charging up that big ass AOE attack which Optimus would never let him charge in the first place.

 

[Naito-desu]

Optimus will more than likely be caught off guard when the berserk monster he was fighting suddenly stands upright and actually starts fighting like a skilled warrior.

Optimus rarely underestimates opponents, he's not going to be caught off-guard by that given he's always a competent fighter regardless of the forms his enemies take given he presumptively could fight insecticons and other decepticons that switch between animal and humanoid forms.

Easy, its the fact that he drops the Guidance rune when killed, the rune that was inscribed in his mind as a Hunter that was lost when he became a Beast, only to return when he goes Holy Blade, as well as the fact that he loses the weaknesses to both serrated and fire damage as Holy Blade, meaning he is no longer a Beast.

Yes but I don't really think that his human experience is so easily applicable in his horse form is what I'm thinking. I'm not really seeing "gains his full human potential" levels of skill rather than just temporarily regaining his sanity and becoming mentally a human. Additionally, his skill feats are mostly just implied, so I feel like this is overmeasuring his skill a little given his current limitations, and it effectively relies on implied feats being interpreted with a high degree of assumptions as well as the assumption that these carry on simply because of the implication that he "became human" throughout his fight in Bloodborne.

Additionally, the Intelligence page is lacking but Optimus Prime has consistently fought multiple opponents with varied arsenals and lasted long against an opponent equal to him while still outnumbered. For example, in Revenge of the Fallen, shortly before his death.

He takes an insane amount of punishment while also holding off many opponents, who themselves are no slouches being able to fodder generic transformers. If anything, it's Optimus who should have the advantage of having the experience to fight giant opponents such as him.

I'm really not sold on your argument regarding size difference and skill. 2 meters isn't a silver bullet for Ludwig nor have I seen any demonstration of how a giant 6-meter horseman is going to be able to use the experience that he had as a relatively normal sized human being against Optimus Prime, a large opponent who is unlike most of the prey he's ever hunted, being made of metal, armed to the teeth with superheated equipment, and superior range with his ion blasters.

Again, strong feeling that the arguments for Ludwig's side are simply just interpretations of arbitrary traits about them made heavily in their favor. There's simply no detail of Ludwig that explicitly helps him the way you just described. Also, where do you get the idea that he's 6.5 meters?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

OOF. That's gonna be rough to deal with but not impossible. I think Optimus' Heat Blades are gonna be really useful here considering they bypass Cybertronians' Heat Resistance which can No-Sell Reentry heat which is hotter than lava btw (Reentry is 3,000 Degrees Fahrenheit while Lava is 2,200 Degrees Fahrenheit). Also his infinite ammunition is gonna make short work of Ludwig while he's charging up that big ass AOE attack which Optimus would never let him charge in the first place.

Not all of Ludwig's AoE attacks have a charge time though, only his strongest one. Fair enough on the heat portion though, but he will still have to deal with the first half of the fight being Ludwig constantly bullrushing him and brute forcing him with his AP advantage as he is starting out in his Accursed state

 

[KLOL506]

For example, in Revenge of the Fallen, shortly before his death.

Use the IMAX version of the fight, that's the real version, Optimus lays down the hate on the Decepticons even harder there, so much so that even 3 Decepticons vs One Prime isn't enough to make up for the difference, Optimus stomps them all to the ground.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Not all of Ludwig's AoE attacks have a charge time though, only his strongest one. Fair enough on the heat portion though, but he will still have to deal with the first half of the fight being Ludwig constantly bullrushing him and brute forcing him with his AP advantage as he is starting out in his Accursed state

Ludwig doesn't Bullrush 24/7 but he does do it a lot so Optimus is gonna have issues with that. That being said Optimus can just dodge, he could literally 3v1 people who were attacking him from three separate directions while finessing them so hard that he used their own attacks against each other and even used their broken off body parts to attack them like when he cut Grindor's arm off, causing it to fly into Megatron and redirect his cannon away from him without even looking at him and then karate chopped Starscream's arm off and beat him with it before tearing Grindor's head in half. Reminder that these guys had more brain power than Accursed Ludwig and were also bullrushing him for half the fight from 3 different directions.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes but I don't really think that his human experience is so easily applicable in his horse form is what I'm thinking. I'm not really seeing "gains his full human potential" levels of skill rather than just temporarily regaining his sanity and becoming mentally a human. Additionally, his skill feats are mostly just implied, so I feel like this is overmeasuring his skill a little given his current limitations, and it effectively relies on implied feats being interpreted with a high degree of assumptions as well as the assumption that these carry on simply because of the implication that he "became human" throughout his fight in Bloodborne.

Additionally, the Intelligence page is lacking but Optimus Prime has consistently fought multiple opponents with varied arsenals and lasted long against an opponent equal to him while still outnumbered. For example, in Revenge of the Fallen, shortly before his death.

He takes an insane amount of punishment while also holding off many opponents, who themselves are no slouches being able to fodder generic transformers. If anything, it's Optimus who should have the advantage of having the experience to fight giant opponents such as him.

I'm really not sold on your argument regarding size difference and skill. 2 meters isn't a silver bullet for Ludwig nor have I seen any demonstration of how a giant 6-meter horseman is going to be able to use the experience that he had as a relatively normal sized human being against Optimus Prime, a large opponent who is unlike most of the prey he's ever hunted, being made of metal, armed to the teeth with superheated equipment, and superior range with his ion blasters.

Again, strong feeling that the arguments for Ludwig's side are simply just interpretations of arbitrary traits about them made heavily in their favor. There's simply no detail of Ludwig that explicitly helps him the way you just described. Also, where do you get the idea that he's 6.5 meters?

I can grab the scan from the guidebook when I get home but its stated in that that in his Holy Blade state he regains full cognitive ability like the Afflicted Beggar. How are Ludwig's skill feats in any way implied though?

Taking insane amounts of punishment is something that literally every Bloodborne character can do, to the point of being able to shrug off having their organs ripped out and being impaled in the skull, with Ludwig being resilient to the point of being capable of surviving as nothing but a disembodied head. And again, Ludwig is smaller than Optimus.

Again, Hunters literally canonically designed their weapons to combat opponents significantly larger than themselves, as well as Ludwig having healing with a combination of his sword and rune.

Basically you're just disregarding the entirety of Ludwig's lore and all of his actual feats because...reasons? You havent given any reason why any of Ludwig's stuff isnt legit beyond disbelief. And 6.5 meters comes from the calc for his lifting strength, where his height was determined via scaling his height compared to Lady Maria.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ludwig doesn't Bullrush 24/7 but he does do it a lot so Optimus is gonna have issues with that. That being said Optimus can just dodge, he could literally 3v1 people who were attacking him from three separate directions while finessing them so hard that he used their own attacks against each other and even used their broken off body parts to attack them like when he cut Grindor's arm off, causing it to fly into Megatron and redirect his cannon away from him without even looking at him and then karate chopped Starscream's arm off and beat him with it before tearing Grindor's head in half. Reminder that these guys had more brain power than Accursed Ludwig and were also bullrushing him for half the fight from 3 different directions.

Accursed sure, but once he shifts into his Holy Blade state Optimus will be fighting an opponent who now is not only significantly stronger, but is cogniscient, comparably skilled, can heal from damage, is trained to fight larger opponents, and can match his ranged attacks

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

but is cogniscient, comparably skilled,

So was Megatron in the previous movie, then Optimus shit on him once he stopped holding back in RotF.

can heal from damage,

So can Starscream and Optimus still shit on him. Optimus also has better regen than Ludwig since he has High-Low compared to Ludwig's Mid-Low

is trained to fight larger opponents, and can match his ranged attacks

Optimus has also fought opponents larger than himself, that being Demolisher, Grindor, Megatron, the Fallen, the Driller, Shockwave, Grimlock and Infernocus, as well as opponents smaller than himself that are around Ludwig's size like Bumblebee so the Size Difference doesn't really matter too much. Also no, he literally can't match his Ranged Attacks. Optimus' Ion Blaster is fully automatic from what I remember and shoots faster than Ludwig can swing his sword. Sure Ludwig's little Beams, which are slower than his Accursed State's bullrush btw, are stronger but if Optimus really thinks he can't win up close then he's not afraid to get out of his range and start sniping him from hundreds of meters away since his guns have a range of 1.2 Miles. He can easily make that distance by transforming and driving away. I'm not sure if we're allowing this since he doesn't get his other DotM Equipment either but Optimus also has Stealth Force mode which has stronger weapons and armor than his robot mode so he has a stat buff he can use that is also a range attack.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Optimus upscales from 305 tons, Ludwig upscales from 673 tons

Optimus scales to casually 433 tons of TNT while weakened

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Optimus scales to casually 433 tons of TNT while weakened

Ah, apologies, though Ludwig still has the advantage

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So can Starscream and Optimus still shit on him. Optimus also has better regen than Ludwig since he has High-Low compared to Ludwig's Mid-Low

I wish this match would have waited until Ludwig's page was cleaned up, his healing is Low-Mid

Optimus has also fought opponents larger than himself, that being Demolisher, Grindor, Megatron, the Fallen, the Driller, Shockwave, Grimlock and Infernocus, as well as opponents smaller than himself that are around Ludwig's size like Bumblebee so the Size Difference doesn't really matter too much. Also no, he literally can't match his Ranged Attacks. Optimus' Ion Blaster is fully automatic from what I remember and shoots faster than Ludwig can swing his sword. Sure Ludwig's little Beams, which are slower than his Accursed State's bullrush btw, are stronger but if Optimus really thinks he can't win up close then he's not afraid to get out of his range and start sniping him from hundreds of meters away since his guns have a range of 1.2 Miles. He can easily make that distance by transforming and driving away. I'm not sure if we're allowing this since he doesn't get his other DotM Equipment either but Optimus also has Stealth Force mode which has stronger weapons and armor than his robot mode so he has a stat buff he can use that is also a range attack.

The battlefield is an enclosed space. His blaster is only full auto in the later movies, not the version used here. Those 'little beams' are twice the size of Ludwig and spammable. And no, Stealth Force is not used here, only his 07 stuff.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I wish this match would have waited until Ludwig's page was cleaned up, his healing is Low-Mid

Well it's not on his Profile so Optimus has better healing.

The battlefield is an enclosed space. His blaster is only full auto in the later movies, not the version used here.

Full Auto thing is fair but Optimus can literally just smash the building they're in since they're not limited by the game mechanics of Bloodborne so he can make plenty of room.

Those 'little beams' are twice the size of Ludwig and spammable.

They're still slower than Ludwig outright charging at him so I doubt Optimus will habe too much difficulty dodging it and it still has less range than Optimus' guns

And no, Stealth Force is not used here, only his 07 stuff.

That's fair.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Well it's not on his Profile so Optimus has better healing.

It will be in a few minutes, im applying the revisions to the boss profiles as we speak

They're still slower than Ludwig outright charging at him so I doubt Optimus will habe too much difficulty dodging it and it still has less range than Optimus' guns

Speed is equalized