Bleach Speed

[Davy0]

I'm a bit confused, are we on the same page? I'm not arguing that lieutenants are above High hypersonic,
Im arguing about Pre-Time Skip Aizen, and people comparable to him right now.

Base Aizen is only RatedHigh hypersonic. For example, Ulquiorra is only High hypersonic despite Blitzing a Hollowed mask version of Ichigo,who is also high hypersonic, who could Match a Fullpower Grimmjow who is also high hypersonic Who Kicked Soulsociety Ichigo'sass (a high hypersonic) without his resurrection, and that is also rated high hypersonic. (they are all rated mach 29.)

Now im saying That pre timeskip Base Aizen is equal to Timeskip Shunsui who he speedblitz'd before the timeskip, who has no mention of doing training during that time and should be about the same level as then.

You could just place Aizen in "At least" territory, man. But his Fragor self was MHS, we had already established this earlier.

Because that's what he is, he got stronger now because he'd been training his spiritual pressure, using his control and refining it in the period he'd been locked away, which makes total sense.

You'll just have to follow the same reasoning as One Piece and Naruto, how about you go check the top tiers who should be well above other characters and see what you find, Pre-TS Aizen was nothing more than High-End Hypersonic.

You mean, the characters who already fought in battles, and were exhausted versus Aizen? There's no way to quantify that. At least it is, wow this was a short situation.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I'm a bit confused, are we on the same page? I'm not arguing that lieutenants are above High hypersonic,
Im arguing about Pre-Time Skip Aizen, and people comparable to him right now.

Base Aizen is only RatedHigh hypersonic. For example, Ulquiorra is only High hypersonic despite Blitzing a Hollowed mask version of Ichigo,who is also high hypersonic, who could Match a Fullpower Grimmjow who is also high hypersonic Who Kicked Soulsociety Ichigo'sass (a high hypersonic) without his resurrection, and that is also rated high hypersonic. (they are all rated mach 29.)

Now im saying That pre timeskip Base Aizen is equal to Timeskip Shunsui who he speedblitz'd before the timeskip, who has no mention of doing training during that time and should be about the same level as then.

You could just place Aizen in "At least" territory, man. But his Fragor self was MHS, we had already established this earlier.
Because that's what he is, he got stronger now because he'd been training his spiritual pressure, using his control and refining it in the period he'd been locked away, which makes total sense.

You'll just have to follow the same reasoning as One Piece and Naruto, how about you go check the top tiers who should be well above other characters and see what you find, Pre-TS Aizen was nothing more than High-End Hypersonic.

You mean, the characters who already fought in battles, and were exhausted versus Aizen? There's no way to quantify that. At least it is, wow this was a short situation.

Base Aizen Lolblitz's Shunsui and 3 other captains, all at once, base Aizen is definitely faster they didn't even react to him. Aizen should still be faster than Shunsui Post timeskip.

Starrk was also able to match Shunsui and Ukitake both at once, who were both fresh, and when Shunsui got distracted for a moment Starrk was able to blitz him. base Aizen is, for obvious reasons, above Starrk.

but since there is no way to quantify that with preTS feats, i want to scale to the post timeskip shunsui who should be the same strength,and speed who has the feats required.

 

[Davy0]

OK. And they were exhausted from earlier battles with Coyote Starrk, oh so you're going after the principle that stamina doesn't lag perception or decrease reactionary levels then? My logic must hate such a notion.

And Starrk was the closest character to Aizen's level in the Espada, Aizen didn't kill Starrk either. Kyokaru killed Starrk after taking negligibly large amounts of damage from his attacks. So what's your point?

 

[LordAizenSama]

Aizen>Starrk=Shunsui. Simple.

 

[Davy0]

Good for him, can you quantify what level the Emo-spada (Ulquiorra) was on? Because from what I'm seeing, he was one of the more powerful Espada in his Secondary Form, if only it was because of an advanced healing factor and greater fire power.

Just like any other character in any other anime or manga, we're gonna get this same ideal. Aizen in his base before the skip isn't MHS. He's certainly close, but there's a difference between being close, and being. You'd have to prove why, with feats, word of god, whatever. But he beat exhausted characters, and Ichigo was crap-tier compared to them.

You could say that because he beat Flash Boobies Dark-chan he's faster, too bad this happened though.

Though maybe that's just him having fun. We do know that at the time, Boobies Dark-chan was the fastest character in the series, though.

 

[LordAizenSama]

admittedly don't know how to Gauge Ulquiorra right now, he could be Starrk level due to Aizens not knowing about it, so I purposely left that alone, for now.

You see the thing is, If he is Scaleable to Shunsui who shouldn't be any stronger/faster post the timeskip, he infact is MHS. they just don't have feats to suggest that until then.

He seemed quite unconcerned about the whole ordeal and didn't seem to take any of it seriously, unless you're trying to tell me,Yoruichi who is roughly Byakuya level at this time,Who SoulSociety Bankai ichigo later speedblitzes , can match Aizen. that would be hilarious. Considering how badly he fails when Aizen Makes him look like a statue later on

 

[Davy0]

No, Shunsui should be High Hypersonic unless you have feats to back that up. Beating up a bunch of Hypersonic characters doesn't make yourself High Hypersonic, same for everyone else in every other fiction.

When the hell is Aizen ever concerned about anything, even while he's getting royally screwed over. Even on commenting about Yama-jii he wasn't "worried", even though he was still more powerful than him even after taking his Zanpaktou away.

I'm guessing Byakuya was never "worried" about anything either considering all he does is flash his eyes when "surprised". Considering he has more feats that Aizen, Byakuya is the secret boss of Bleach.

 

[Saladina]

I think Pre timeskip Aizen is Scaleable to Post Timeskip Shunsui, he has shown he should be superior,just with a lack of Feats.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I'm all for Ichigo being MHS+ due to his showings with Yhwach, but the smaller tiers such as Omaeda shouldn't be High Hypersonic unless they have more consistent showings. I agree with Shunsui and Sniper-guy being MHS, possibly MHS+.

You literally Said, you agree with him being MHS possibly MHS+

incase you're still missing what the point of any of this is, It's Scaleing to Post timeskip Shunsui, Who is MHS and has had no training or Power increase to even hint at, Who Base Aizen is Definitely Superior to, Given that he has Lolblitz'd him +Company before, and Shunsui found a equal in starrk who are both below Aizens Level

 

[Davy0]

First off, Shunsui's abilities relied more on his hax. He wasn't necessarily superior to Sniper-guy in physical abilities, his techniques in his shikai and bankai made him an effective nuisance, his abilities are based upon trickiness.

Yes, but Shunsui could have trained, you can't say that Shunsui was lesser than Aizen to that degree just because he had trouble with Starrk. Starrk also hadn't fought against Aizen, who is to say that Starrk couldn't have placed more of a fight, considering he was superior to Spooky Skeleton-man who had the hax of time disintegration and whatnot.

And that's what you're missing right there. He's not scaleable to post skip Shunsui because we barely knew Shunsui's powers before the battle. We got a good taste of Aizen's powers, and Shunsui was exhausted after fighting Starrk, Cheshire grin or not, he was wounded in several places, and his stamina was down.

By the way, I would stay away from inconsistencies. They make your argument less effective, so good luck in that minefield.

 

[LordAizenSama]

First point doesn't matter? you've already said Shunsui would be MHS. you're right, His Shikai/Bankai doesn't give him DC powerups, but it would all be for naught if his base speed was garbage in the first place. his Hax replaces his need for DC, not his speed

err, you can.Yes he could of trained, but it was never shown or mentioned,and that's an important point, otherwise we're assuming they all got massively stronger other than the only people who we see training are hitsugaya, whos training seemingly got him nowhere, and Renji mentions it once in passing.

as a example, look at the 100 year gap between Aizen making the hogyoku from Souls to current day. Imagine how powerful They should of alI been if they kept up training for 100 years. but it's more than likely their power stayed more or less the same. for 100 years. As for Barragan being lower then starrk, I always felt that was simply Aizen spiteing the King of Hueco Mundo to not be the top guy. But i do think starrk is faster.

It's upto Kubo to decide what degree His injuries affect him , for example he is still able to match starrk in speed despite the wounds he suffered, Shinji Got blitzd all the same as Shunsui despite and only being lightly injured.

And there is no reason why he is not scaleable to Shunsui timeskip, No onscreen training, or even a mention of it, periods in bleach where characters are the same level for 100 years, and no hints of gaining any new ability.

so we are back here. Shunsui is definitely equal/comparable to Starrk in speed, Who Aizen is definitely Above. as for the injuries he suffered when he got blitz'd, it's clear kubo was portraying Aizen on another level to all of them there. which was supported by Gins Claim that they neverstood a chance anyway and that Aizen was beyond their level, and not just interms of Kyoka Suigetsu broken hax.

You're also saying that, Aizen would be inferior to Shunsui if he wasn't injured? that's ridiculous.

 

[Zensum]

Even with exaustion, if Shunsui was faster than aizen he should have still noticed the attack from aizen before he was hit. If he couldnt evade dude to his injuries a panel of him noticing the attack would give us a hint to if he could have reacted if he was totally fine

However this was a total blitz

 

[Davy0]

Onto the second point. You're kidding me right? You think someone... as smart as Shunsui wouldn't understand that he had undeniable weaknesses that he needed to overcome? Even though he's one of the more intelligent characters in the series? You're saying that Coyote Starrk was on par with Sniper-guy then? You'd have to be to make that assumption even though you have no proof to show for it. So Rukia didn't train either, she just gained Bankai out her bum... So did Shuhei, and anyone worth their salt in this war...

Except their have been more effective ways to train having been shown from Kisuke's contraptions which allow for gaining Bankai in short of 3 days. places where you can heal and train for greater periods of time than without. Kisuke still helped out the Soul Society, dude.

Again, Kubo is the person you should question about his lame excuses and crappy inability to show a characters strength properly. Otherwise I'm sticking to the fact that he'd have trained.

OK... That has nothing to do with the fact that he had noticeable injuries and had a long and hard battle with Starrk and was attacked after the fact.

Shinji didn't even have his mask on, there's nothing that states that Shinji was inferior or superior to Shunsui anyway. Again, a lack of showing clear abilities...

There is a reason. Becuase you can't just give him those powers without basis. You don't have any proof that states that Aizen was that much more superior to Shunsui than that. The Shinigami had trained themselves to fight because they were beaten badly by Aizen, they are a militia, it's the most intelligent thing to do to acknowledge your insufficiencies and increase your skill when you lose a war if you have the time and the resources to do so. Otherwise they would be the worst militia ever seen in fiction, par for the course of Bleach I guess.

That's why "at least" was invented. He's not getting MHS though.

 

[Davy0]

Even with exaustion, if Shunsui was faster than aizen he should have still noticed the attack from aizen before he was hit. If he couldnt evade dude to his injuries a panel of him noticing the attack would give us a hint to if he could have reacted if he was totally fine
However this was a total blitz

Hm... you guys are hilarious. So you're saying that we should never attribute characters abilities to their stamina then. Huh... so when a tennis ball is coming at my head at 60 miles in hour, and I'm damn tired, my reflexes should be capable of picking it up near instantly because I've always had the ability to dodge those tennis balls at that speed.

 

[Zensum]

Even with exaustion, if Shunsui was faster than aizen he should have still noticed the attack from aizen before he was hit. If he couldnt evade dude to his injuries a panel of him noticing the attack would give us a hint to if he could have reacted if he was totally fine
However this was a total blitz

1)Hm... you guys are hilarious. So you're saying that we should never attribute characters abilities to their stamina then.

2)Huh... so when a tennis ball is coming at my head at 60 miles in hour, and I'm damn tired, my reflexes should be capable of picking it up near instantly because I've always had the ability to dodge those tennis balls at that speed.

Im talking about awareness. You can see the dude is not dying from exhaustion. He should still be be able to notice the attack even if his injuries don't allow him to react.

Noticing and reacting are 2 diffrent things. In this cause shunsui couldnt do either.

 

[Davy0]

Hm... Awareness... and how does... awareness work exactly. Break it down scientifically for me? What is "noticing" then.

 

[Zensum]

If you cant see/notice an attack coming you cant react/evade it is what i mean

 

[Non-Bias]

Aizen only blitz Shunsui when he was distracted by Toshiro screaming in rage. Add to the fact he was already battle worn, it's understandable that Shunsui got 'blitzed' by Aizen.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Onto the second point. You're kidding me right? You think someone... as smart as Shunsui wouldn't understand that he had undeniable weaknesses that he needed to overcome? Even though he's one of the more intelligent characters in the series? You're saying that Coyote Starrk was on par with Sniper-guy then? You'd have to be to make that assumption even though you have no proof to show for it. So Rukia didn't train either, she just gained Bankai out her bum... So did Shuhei, and anyone worth their salt in this war...

um, what are you talking about? Rukia quite clearly did train under special conditions with the royal guard.She can now mix it with the higher Captains. Starrks speed matches Shunsuis speed, In terms of overall battlepower? I don't know. as for having no proof, THAT is a reason for powerscaling and not against. it should be acceptable to have Starrk equal to Shunsui in speed.


Except their have been more effective ways to train having been shown from Kisuke's contraptions which allow for gaining Bankai in short of 3 days. places where you can heal and train for greater periods of time than without. Kisuke still helped out the Soul Society, dude.

Again, Kubo is the person you should question about his lame excuses and crappy inability to show a characters strength properly. Otherwise I'm sticking to the fact that he'd have trained.

OK... That has nothing to do with the fact that he had noticeable injuries and had a long and hard battle with Starrk and was attacked after the fact.

It's either, Shunsui did train offscreen,and didn't increase any stats, or he didn't train at all, your pick.Aizen mentioned Limits to Shinigami Strength in soul society. It is also quite likely Shunsui is already reached the limit of a shinigami, and cannot progress any further, as you said, he is a Smart and wiser character. so if he did train, and got nowhere, ATLEAST in the area of speed, theres you answer why. this is irrefutile, it's Aizens whole reason for leaving soul society in the first place. you're literally arguing with the manga now.

And that is no reason as to why Shunsui, who injured could still react to starrk, COULD NOT react to Aizen, At all, keep in mind he blitzd 3 OTHER CAPTAINS at the same time as him

Shinji didn't even have his mask on, there's nothing that states that Shinji was inferior or superior to Shunsui anyway. Again, a lack of showing clear abilities...

Shinji is just captain level. i made that comparison because you just seem to believe shunsuis speed dropped so dramatically, that any relevant lightly injured captain could atleast be able to react

There is a reason. Becuase you can't just give him those powers without basis. You don't have any proof that states that Aizen was that much more superior to Shunsui than that. The Shinigami had trained themselves to fight because they were beaten badly by Aizen, they are a militia, it's the most intelligent thing to do to acknowledge your insufficiencies and increase your skill when you lose a war if you have the time and the resources to do so. Otherwise they would be the worst militia ever seen in fiction, par for the course of Bleach I guess.

That's why "at least" was invented. He's not getting MHS though.


This isn't without basis, i've been telling you it's viable through powerscaling "At least" was implemented because we had nothing to scale it to, and it's incredibly flawed and screws over bleach's pretimeskip, unless you think it's ok that they're all Mach 29, for 2/3rds the series. what do you think casual people on browsing this page think? or people who don't read bleach think? when everyone is at high hypersonic, which simply isn't true.

And Base Aizen doesn't have to be massively massively above Shunsui for this to count, Aizen is definitely Scaleable to Shunsui, how is this even debateble? Like i said, Aizen was portrayed WAY above shunsui's level, and he has not shown any training, or results of any training.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Aizen only blitz Shunsui when he was distracted by Toshiro screaming in rage. Add to the fact he was already battle worn, it's understandable that Shunsui got 'blitzed' by Aizen.

so, he blitzs four captain levels at once, and you're telling me that Shunsui cannot react to aizen going and slashing four of them due to hitsugaya, who btw, was Completely focused on aizen . please, that is a joke.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I'm really bored so i didn't read the whole thing.BUT there is no evidence that put shunsui at MHS+ his battle with hazelnut (Haschwalth) was just talking behind a barrier ,no real combat (as far as i remember).And Hazelnut is MHS to MHS+ because he battled bazz.

Also you don't scale pre time skip character to future post timeskip characters ,bleach never showed MHS+ pre time skip.The upgrades don't come from training but from the author that decided to give them feats and upgrade the verse as a whole.

Blitzing doesn't require 20+ times superior speed (which is what you are suggesting) especially since Aizen has his shikai which was activated during the fight.

 

[LordAizenSama]

'm really bored so i didn't read the whole thing.BUT there is no evidence that put shunsui at MHS+ his battle with hazelnut (Haschwalth) was just talking behind a barrier ,no real combat (as far as i remember).And Hazelnut is MHS to MHS+ because he battled bazz.

yeah i mixed Haschwalth up with Shooter guy, Don't mind me it was like 3 in the morning. My bad.


Also you don't scale pre time skip character to future post timeskip characters ,bleach never showed MHS+ pre time skip.The upgrades don't come from training but from the author that decided to give them feats and upgrade the verse as a whole.

yes, you are exactly right, and that is why we use powerscaling, heres the copypasta of why it's possible and Why Base Aizen would = PTS shunsui

It's either, Shunsui did train offscreen,and didn't increase any stats , or he didn't train at all, your pick.Aizen mentioned Limits to Shinigami Strength in soul society. It is also quite likely Shunsui is already reached the limit of a shinigami, and cannot progress any further, as you said, he is a Smart and wiser character and being a Senior captain so if he did train, which we don't see, and got nowhere, ATLEAST in the area of speed, theres you answer why. this is irrefutile, it's Aizens whole reason for leaving soul society in the first place.

Another thing to note would be presumedly, seeing Aizen 100 years before the series already owning captain level opponents, would be fair assessment to say Kubo didn't change their power levels.

Blitzing doesn't require 20+ times superior speed (which is what you are suggesting) especially since Aizen has his shikai which was activated during the fight.

1.Nope, But it makes powerscaling usable. powerscaling to shunsui. who should be MHS possibly MHS+ based off shooter guy.

But as of right now, the bleach pages have, for pretimeskip, SS Byakuya=SS Ichigo=BaseGrimmjow=Base Ulquiorra=Upgraded Masked Ichigo=Grimmjow Resurrection=UlquiorraV1=UlquiorraV2=Vasto Lorde Ichigo=Starrk=Gin=Urahara=Aizen=FullBring Ichigo, or too that effect. as all list as mach 29, neat huh? certainly theres nothing wrong there.

2,he turnt it off KS when hinamori got stabbed. No it wasn't a illusion because ichigo confirms it happening. and Gin gives support to his superiority 1 2 3. Also the whole Aizen>Stark=Shunsui, thing.

Thanks for joining the discussion, though.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Well as i said above powerscaling doesn't work between pre skip and post time skip because the verse recieves a boost as a whole.The only legitimate way to prove these upgardes is via calcs.

I also believe that this UlquiorraV1 = Ichigo = etc = mach 29 isn't right but it doesn't make them mach 100+ ,they can just be mach 35 and still be vastly superior in terms of speed.

I want to hear what the admins and moderators have to say about this.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I would also like to see some input from Mods/Admins into this.

and shouldn't the lack of feats be a reason to powerscale, and not a reason against it? I believe theres enough evidence to Scale a Base Aizen to Post time skip. But I would like to see some Mod Input

EDIT:and @that Mach35 thing that's upto the Writers to decide how to show that speed It could Be Mach 40Speedblitz Mach 10s, or Mach 40 can't speedblitz mach 30

 

[Davy0]

I'll put it damn simply.

Just as any other fiction, you'll need to prove what you're implying. Yourself doesn't get the upgrades that you desire unless you have calcs towards it. High Hypersonic sounds appropriate in my opinion, you can even make him and Pre-skip Yama High Hypersonic if you want. But MHS is too much as you don't have proof, like KK just stated.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I think 60 Something replies Is enough arguing, I want to see what Admins Think of this.

 

[Fireboy2000]

LordAizenSama people will get upgrades soon.

because yhwach is like mach 10.000 and any one who can keep up with him will be put to his speed. and if no one can hit him that will be shit fight so people like aizen ichigo and some more will keep up in the fight. so when people fight yhwach. any one who can keep up will become his level of speed so just wait.

 

[Illuminati478]

current stats are fine until anything new will happen, or any revisions of prexisting calcs.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

current stats are fine until anything new will happen, or any revisions of prexisting calcs.

I agree with this.

 

[LordAizenSama]

current stats are fine until anything new will happen, or any revisions of prexisting calcs.

fine? how are they fine when they are all the same god dam speed, you don't see a issue with that?

 

[Davy0]

Same thing with every other series...

 

[LordAizenSama]

and that makes it ok, how.

 

[Davy0]

It makes it OK because just like any other damn series you need to prove how much faster they are than other characters, otherwise it stays a moot point for you, and all that's listened to is a guy whining about how his series is treated just like everyone elses series because he thinks his is more special than everyone elses.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I don't want to argue again but i told you. shunsui did not get stronger. Aizen>Shunsui. simple powerscaling. very,very simple, comprehende?

 

[Davy0]

Then get some more damned proof for that. Very, Very Simple, Comprehende?

 

[LordAizenSama]

maybe if you read my comments,you would find your proof, very,very simple, Comprehende?

 

[Davy0]

I read your comments. They didn't have enough proof. Your comments have far too many unknown parts to it to take in. You can't actually prove that he didn't train, nor can you specifically point to the times when Aizen didn't beat the faster captains when they weren't tired. His signature "I don't give a crap about anything" doesn't help your stance. All it shows is that he's an arrogant prick. And since you can't prove that, your "proof", what you're trying to hold onto so damn tightly. It's not going to measure up. So it doesn't matter either way. Stop acting like a whiny kid about Aizen not having what you see as his "right speed". Considering you can't even prove him as superior or inferior to even True Shikai Ichigo at that time, and Aizen himself has been training his spiritual power. It still doesn't matter.