Bleach - Speed

[Infinite9Luck]

this should be good with M3X's suggestion, calc is approved

also High-End is Sub-Rel+ so you wanna correct that too

Thanks!

I have to wait a 3rd Moderator, right? Or 2 is enough? I don't remember.

 

[Dalesean027]

yeah this would normally be more of a calc thread tbh since it involved correcting a outdated calc even if it was originally proposed as an upgrade thread but yeah get one more mod vote and update the OP with the new calc and new values in the scaling chain

 

[M3X_2.0]

If it's accepted as blink of an eye, shouldn't it be 0.1 to 0.4 milliseconds as ends? Instead of 1 second?

No one takes 1 second to blink.

Just take it bro

 

[Lilybitdun]

SK suppressed Yhwach/No Almighty: 0.088c (Absorbed the totality SK's Reiatsu, which currently scale higher to just Base Yhwach by itself, so minimum a x2) Sub-Relativistic + | NEW CALC 0.586c Relativistic
TS Ichigo: 0.088c (Reacted to SK Yhwach attacks, as accepted on his profile) / Sub-Relativistic + | NEW CALC 0.586c Relativistic
TB Ichigo (x5): 0.444c or Hollowfication(x5): 0.444c / SK with Almighty/Serious: 0.444c (Kept up with Hollowfied Ichigo) / Relativistic | NEW CALC 2.93c FTL
TB + Hollow: 2.2c / PSK: 2.2c / FTL | NEW CALC 14.65c FTL

SUMMARY: 60% Cien: 0.066c, 100% Cien: 0.11c, FH 100%: 0.22c, 75% Yhwach: 0.22c, 100% base Yhwach: 0.293c, SK Yhwach suppressed (x2): 0.586c, Hollowfied Ichigo (x5): 2.93c, TB + Hollow (x5): 14.65c

0.586c is Relativistic+, not Relativistic

 

[DarthSpiderr]

To give more context, this feat has been performed by Cien at chapter 15, page 129, Cien at page 118 same chapter was stated to have still only 60% of his power, and he reached 100% only after chapter 18, so 3 whole chapters later, even before that, Cien and Zaraki were compared to Full Hollow Ichigo.
The scaling mainly focused on Ichigo as reference, will look like this:

Doesn't the calculation take into account the speed of the beam attack? Is there any evidence that Ichigo reacted to this beam after firing it during the fight with him? I just haven't read Bleach.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

What? Ichigo's cero overpowered Ulquiorra's Cero. "One strong enough to quash an Oscura". Also I posted instances where clearly comparable characters scales to the speed of their Cero.

We're not talking about AP. VL's Cero didn't beat Ulq's Cero in terms of speed. Furthermore, it didn't beat them by a huge margin in terms of AP either. This clash lasted 3 panels.

 

[R81handman]

Being faster than someone does not mean you transcend every category of speed that they possess if you believe your combat speed is higher than someone else’s travel speed you have to prove that separately & being faster than you in general does not in any way shape perform prove that, you are hard selling an assumption it’s backed up by nothing but feelings you feel that a person’s combat speed we should be higher than another’s attack speed, but unless that’s proven with proper evidence it’s just guess work, as for your example of course characters can fight each other for hours and still not surpass each other’s attack speeds the reason for this is because 99.9% of the time during battle shonen fights in 1v1 scenarios, they involve characters sidestepping each other’s projectiles rather than completely outpacing them there is a distinct difference between sidestepping and outpacing, as only one of them results in you being faster than any particular attack and fighting for hours only necessitates the former not the latter so that is not valid evidence for why it’s totally supposed to be above someone’s attack speed. The whole argument is reliant on one big charitable unbacked assumption. Yes sometimes characters CAN outpace attacks but that isn’t a default assumption, we treat it on a case by case basis. X characters doing abc in one fight doesn’t mean character P from the same verse will also do abc in every fricking fight in the same verse ever. That’s horrendous generalisation. The most you could get away with is finding individual scaling chains and trying to extract a scene where people outpaced Cien’s attack speeds. If those scenes exist to help construct a chain then good for you, if they don’t? then this argument is dismissed as headcanon disguised as “common sense”.

 

[Mommyleona]

What are you even arguing? If 2 character are relative, for example, Starrk and Shunsui, the latter was dodging his Cero at point black.

That doesnt even scale him to the attack necessarily, he makes a tiny dodge while the cero is already flying off screen
More over, you have to prove it in THIS specific instance that someone scales to Cien's cero, NOT bring up completely unrelated showings

Also, arguing that way stronger character will not scale to an attack of a mid-manga/pre TYBWA character, is actually ridiculous.

No it isn't, this is argument from incredulity, stronger does not mean he scales higher in speed in every single capacity of the weaker character, especially attack speed.

If 2 people are relative, their attacks are too.

Yet Yhwach's Auswahlen is like multiple times superior to Shikai ichigo, who in turn is superior to Base Yhwach

Ichigo himself uses Cero in his full Hollow form, and even in his HoS form against Yhwach, so Ichigo only scales because he is literally a Hollow like Cien? Yet, by that logic, you also end up with Yhwach scaling since he reacted to the Cero, then Aizen, and then everyone else.
Simply put, if two characters are relative, they backscale to each other at the bare minimum. This is just common sense.

it isnt tho, you do not have to be as fast as the attack in order to dodge it, you need to directly show relative movement to the attack in a same timeframe, in order to claim that you scale

There is not a single instance in the series where a weaker character’s Cero was too fast for a stronger character. If anything, all the evidence shows the opposite, as I already posted you have stronger character fully blitzing weaker character's cero. Meaning whoever is stronger than Cien would scale.

Where is a blitz in question? Yammy's Bala wasn't bitzed, Yammy himself was

Bleach clearly has a power system where speed is related to power, so people need to actually post scans to debunk my arguments. Otherwise, it is just pure headcanon over and over.

It clearly doesnt considering the above mentioned example with yhwach (werent you one of the people who literally argued that techniques scale ABOVE characters using them?????)

 

[Rodriiogo]

Skipping over the fact that, as everyone already said, just because characters scale above Cien himself in speed does not mean they scale above his Cero's speed as we differentiate attack speed from reaction/combat speed.

I wanna say that the new calculation is still being "wanked".

First off, the usage of "in the blink of an eye" is just another way of saying "really fast"/"extremely quickly", authors and even people in general use expressions like that all the time without intending the exact value of how much time it takes for someone to blink. I think it's an issue of people taking the kanji of Japanese in a way too literal way when translating it, it being Japanese doesn't change the fact that the blink of an eye is an expression and shouldn't be taken that literal, there's Japanese dictionaries that literally define those same kanji as "A very short time".

Next point, using the current TL being used for the calculation:

The "blink of an eye" is in reference to it reaching outer space, why would it actually mean it took the blink of an eye to reach 20X the distance to outer space? Even if we take it literally and use 0.1 seconds for that statement, something that went upwards 2000 km as the calculation claims, even if it took 2 seconds to reach the 2000 km, it'd already reach outer space in the blink of an eye (0.1s) as outer space starts at 100 km.

To add more, the distance itself, is also wrong. Most satellites are LEO (Low Earth Orbit) satellites as over 88% of active satellites are LEO. LEO is BELOW 2000 KM. So 2000 km is also wrong. Here's multiple examples of satellites being much, MUCH lower than even 2000 km as well:

^ Using the average from this ones (ignoring the lowest altitude one) gives a result of:
(410+780+800+540+395+500+255)/7 = ~525.71 km
Nowhere near 2000 km.

---

TLDR:
Both the time frame and the distance of the feat are being wanked in the calculation alongside removing context of the feat being it reaching outer space in the blink of an eye.

I personally propose using 1 second and a distance like the one I got (doesn't have to be that exact one, but around there) which would give a result of around 525710m/s aka Mach 1532.68.
But as said in the beginning, this is attack speed, does this truly scale to anyone?

 

[Saqphire]

An easy way to reconcile this whole attack speed nonsense is to just say SAFWY Kenny scales to Cien’s feat as they directly fought for 3 hours, where Cien likely used his Cero at one point, and start the chain from him instead

 

[Slacjow]

So you read "in a blnk of an eye" in a fictional story and assume that the author means that the action occurs in the literal timeframe it would take for an eye to blink?

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Just because it happened a few times is not mearly enough evidence to claim this phenomenon happens every fight. Meaning that there needs to be more concrete proof rather than simply "it was done previously."

I believe that Leona bringing up that Auswählen is explicitly faster than Ichigo pretty much buries this argument for good

I disagree with this CRT

 

[GTsek]

Given the new arguments, I'm inclined to disagree with the current calculation. Indeed, the statement mentions that it took a blink of an eye to reach outer space and then it hit the satellites. I think if the intention was to say that it hit the satellite during that period, then the part about outer space wouldn't have been mentioned. Therefore, timeframes below 1 second should not be considered, I think it's safe to assume a time period above 1s (or 1s) and use an average distance for the altitude of the satellites.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Skipping over the fact that, as everyone already said, just because characters scale above Cien himself in speed does not mean they scale above his Cero's speed as we differentiate attack speed from reaction/combat speed.

I wanna say that the new calculation is still being "wanked".

First off, the usage of "in the blink of an eye" is just another way of saying "really fast"/"extremely quickly", authors and even people in general use expressions like that all the time without intending the exact value of how much time it takes for someone to blink. I think it's an issue of people taking the kanji of Japanese in a way too literal way when translating it, it being Japanese doesn't change the fact that the blink of an eye is an expression and shouldn't be taken that literal, there's Japanese dictionaries that literally define those same kanji as "A very short time".

Next point, using the current TL being used for the calculation:

The "blink of an eye" is in reference to it reaching outer space, why would it actually mean it took the blink of an eye to reach 20X the distance to outer space? Even if we take it literally and use 0.1 seconds for that statement, something that went upwards 2000 km as the calculation claims, even if it took 2 seconds to reach the 2000 km, it'd already reach outer space in the blink of an eye (0.1s) as outer space starts at 100 km.

To add more, the distance itself, is also wrong. Most satellites are LEO (Low Earth Orbit) satellites as over 88% of active satellites are LEO. LEO is BELOW 2000 KM. So 2000 km is also wrong. Here's multiple examples of satellites being much, MUCH lower than even 2000 km as well:

^ Using the average from this ones (ignoring the lowest altitude one) gives a result of:
(410+780+800+540+395+500+255)/7 = ~525.71 km
Nowhere near 2000 km.

But as said in the beginning, this is attack speed, does this truly scale to anyone?

Debunk of Outer Space lowball

At 100 km, you are still in the heterosphere, and there are still gases, so for one, it is not properly outer space.

Atmosphere still end up till 10.000km, outer space by strict definition is beyond it.

NASA Website.

BRITANNICA

This is the Japanese Kanji used, which literally means

“cosmic space”
“space of the universe”

Which support the actual strict definition of it, aka it being AFTER earth atmosphere and not INSIDE it.

Thinking this refer to 100 km is completely unsupported by any correct definition.

Debunk of your Average

Spoiler: Your average is invalid

Also your whole reasoning is wrong too, you took the average, but only for the parts you wanted personally, and not for the highest one?

What is the point of doing an average if you just take the middle area? Either you do the weighted average of EVERYTHING, or you do not.

Most likely, 2,000 km was used as a middle/medium value by calc member which is fully reasonable assumption, either you assume that or do a proper weighted average of everything not what you pick.

You can do the weighted average of everything and end up with the original calc distance.

The same link for “blink of an eye” that you posted literally uses “instantaneous” as the definition, which still supports that timeframe.
Anyway, I made three ends for the calc, and two calc members wanted that. It is not unreasonable to use it.

Regarding scaling, and this will answer to everyone else, it will scale.

Simply saying “you have to prove it outpaced the Cero” or “attack speed does not scale” does not really do any meaningful debunk.

For one, you do not have to outpace the Cero in travel speed; you just need to scale in terms of combat. For example, if someone fires a Cero and it can consistently be reacted to or dodged, then you downscale to it.

It does not even matter if you literally not equal the Cero. What matters is a concept you guys seem to be completely unaware of, which is relativity to something.

If two characters are similar, they can fight, dodge, and react to each other’s attacks, and that has always been displayed.

Cien and Zaraki fight for the whole novel, are stated to be equal, and Zaraki should not scale to his Cero? Yet you are even arguing that no one should scale when, as the series progresses, there are dozens of characters several times stronger than Zaraki?

I asked a couple of times for a single instance where a stronger character could not dodge and got blitzed by a Cero, but it was never presented.

So we have a plethora of instances where characters who are either relative or stronger scale to the Cero, which has always been the case.

Proof of Scaling

1. Rangiku dodged a Cero of characters comparable to her.

2. Starrk and Shunsui are relative, yet Shunsui could DODGE A BARRAGE of them, not one, but dozens.

3. Zaraki literally run away from a Cero, and he needed to 2vs1 Yammy, hence he is even weaker here.

4. Kisuke didn't just blitzed yammy, because to blitz him here, he needed to outpace fully the Bala which is evena x20 of Cero.

This again prove stronger characters will always scale above.

And this stuff, I just posted happened ALWAYS.

There isn't a SINGLE instance in the manga where a STRONGER character could not 1) dodge 2) react or 3) get blitzed by a Cero.

This is simple common sense, and this feats back it up, Zaraki fought Cien for the whole novel, they stated literally to be on par, and he doesn't scale? And Zaraki fought against a 100% cien, and the feat is performed by a 60% cien on top of this, claiming Zaraki doesn't scales or people stronger, is complete non-sense.

Now, beside the agenda to do not want people to scale, I'll wait a SINGLE scene of a stronger character unable to dodge or React a single Cero.

 

[GTsek]

Debunk of Outer Space lowball

At 100 km, you are still in the heterosphere, and there are still gases, so for one, it is not properly outer space.

Atmosphere still end up till 10.000km, outer space by strict definition is beyond it.

Well, looking at that part, the statement says that it reached outer space first and then hit the satellite. Satellites don't go above 10,000 km, so I think for the writer, reaching altitudes close to satellites is already considered "outer space". I disagree that it's 100km, but it's not quite 2000km either, since most satellites are located below that range.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Well, looking at that part, the statement says that it reached outer space first and then hit the satellite. Satellites don't go above 10,000 km, so I think for the writer, reaching altitudes close to satellites is already considered "outer space". I disagree that it's 100km, but it's not quite 2000km either, since most satellites are located below that range.

There are satellite are 35.000 km. So where did you get they don't go above 10.000 km?

As I said, either you do a weighted average OF EVERYTHING. Or not.

 

[GTsek]

There are satellite are 35.000 km. So where did you get they don't go above 10.000 km?

As I said, either you do a weighted average OF EVERYTHING. Or not.

My mistake, but still, only 5% or less of satellites above 10,000 km. Since approximately 90% of the distance is below 2000km, it is more accurate to use the lower average. Moreover, the probability of having hit a LEO is much higher, as the space between them is extremely smaller.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Debunk of Outer Space lowball

At 100 km, you are still in the heterosphere, and there are still gases, so for one, it is not properly outer space.

Atmosphere still end up till 10.000km, outer space by strict definition is beyond it.

NASA Website.

Uhm, why did you curiously use that part of the Nasa website, look here:

• The Edge of Outer Space. While there’s really no clear boundary between where Earth’s atmosphere ends and outer space begins, most scientists use a delineation known as the Karman line, located 100 kilometers (62 miles) above Earth’s surface, to denote the transition point, since 99.99997 percent of Earth’s atmosphere lies beneath this point.

Posted by the NASA Science Editorial Team

Are you genuinely going against the scientists at NASA??? They do acknowledge that earth's atmosphere continues after the Kármán line yea you're right there, but that's still not what outer space is on their standards, on the same link up there you will even see scientists bringing the possibility that the lowest % of earth's atmosphere may extend beyond the moon itself, that doesn't mean the Moon is not outer space now because that's the whole reason the Kármán line exists. We use the Kárman line as the beginning of outer space, it's that simple.

Debunk of your Average
Also your whole reasoning is wrong too, you took the average, but only for the parts you wanted personally, and not for the highest one?

What is the point of doing an average if you just take the middle area? Either you do the weighted average of EVERYTHING, or you do not.

Most likely, 2,000 km was used as a middle/medium value by calc member which is fully reasonable assumption, either you assume that or do a proper weighted average of everything not what you pick.

You can do the weighted average of everything and end up with the original calc distance.

Well, thanks for not reading how I noted that over 88% of active satellites are LEO. By this fact (that you ignored) it's way more probable, alongside the Outer space statement, that the satellite that got hit was a LEO, assuming anything else is wank. The ones I used are a bunch of LEO satellites as that would be the average of where they are placed, I explained that.

If you want a comparison to how your way of getting "average" is just wank and ignoring actual info, it's like me going "to get the average size of a planet in the universe I will use the smallest planet and the biggest planet in the universe then divide it by two for the average." If I did that, I would get an average of 486227.5 km diameter for a planet, aka 11X bigger than Jupiter and 38X than Earth. Does this mean every "planet destroyer" in fiction should now use this value? No because this is ignoring how despite some planets being much bigger, there is not a constant % of planets "around this small" and planets "around this big" so the numbers inflate.

You are using MEO and GEO satellites for your average for no reason even though they are only 11% of active satellites just to inflate your numbers to stupid degrees.

I want you to please look at the discrepancy between the LEO, MEO and GEO's averages, take into account that 88% of the satellites are in the "LEO" section and say with a straight face "yea it probably was a satellite 2000km away from earth".

I will say my proposal again: Use the average LEO satellite, stop messing with MEO and GEO ones, that's dumb, as dumb as using a exoplanet to a planet size average.

The same link for “blink of an eye” that you posted literally uses “instantaneous” as the definition, which still supports that timeframe.

We use 1 second for "instantaneous" statements if there is no more context for it, why would this one be different? Wheres the additional context?

 

[Nierre]

Can I get a tldr on the issues the opposition has with the calc?

 

[Infinite9Luck]

There is an explicit feat of a blast reaching outside Earth’s atmosphere, at over 10,000 km, which is the actual proper outer-space distance, instantly. And it is done by a mid arc-manga-level Arrancar. No way Ichigo scales!!!

But it does not support my agenda of MHS Bleach!! so let’s not scale anyone to it despite blatant proof of stronger/comparable characters scaling above or to it.

Let’s also act like outer space is only at 100 km because google gemini says it despite, NASA say atmosphere end at 10.000 km and the Kanji say literally "Space of the Universe!"/Above earth Atmosphere. People don't even realise at 100km you still have gasses around, which defeat the definition of outer space.

Outer Space in Bleach is also used with completely devoid of gas as vacuum, literally Space of the Universe.

"Outer space as Space of the Universe as Vacuum" same Kanji used for Cien's Cero, which imply what I stated. As per by NASA and Britannica definition.

No way you can get FTL with multipliers from an explicit feat of a blast reaching outside Earth’s atmosphere and into outer space!

nt you to please look at the discrepancy between the LEO, MEO and GEO's averages, take into account that 88% of the satellites are in the "LEO" section and say with a straight face "yea it probably was a satellite 2000km away from earth".

I will say my proposal again: Use the average LEO satellite, stop messing with MEO and GEO ones, that's dumb, as dumb as using a exoplanet to a planet size average.



We use 1 second for "instantaneous" statements if there is no more context for it, why would this one be different? Wheres the additional context?

No one said to take the smallest value and the biggest value and divide by 2.

Everyone acknowledges that. A weighted average means the large quantity of lower-distance satellites pulls most of the average downward. It does not matter if only 5% are at 35,000 km; they are still part of the distribution. Because even 5% is still POSSIBLE.

There is still a possibility of the target being that far away, so it has to be taken into account in the weighted average.

It is really basics statistic, this is if you want to use AVERAGE.

So either you do that or do not.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Can I get a tldr on the issues the opposition has with the calc?

1. Via the current TL, the "blink of an eye" is in reference to it reaching outer space, which is only 100 km, here's NASA saying that as well since Luck tried using them to say it's actually beyond all of the Earth atmosphere;
2. The average satellite being "2000 km" is wrong and just inflating numbers as over 88% of active satellites are LEO, which is below 2000 km even at it's maximum;
3. Using the statement of "in the blink of an eye" to 0.1 seconds is wrong and 1 second should be used instead;
4. Through both point 1 and 2 together, it's way better to use an average for LEO satellites than wanking it to beyond any LEO satellite despite it being 88% of active satellites, like I did above (Doesn't have to be this exact average, this is just to show how inflated the current number is);

Spoiler: Average while using examples of LEO satellites

Here's multiple examples of satellites being much, MUCH lower than even 2000 km as well:

^ Using the average from this ones (ignoring the lowest altitude one) gives a result of:
(410+780+800+540+395+500+255)/7 = ~525.71 km
Nowhere near 2000 km.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Debunk of Outer Space lowball

At 100 km, you are still in the heterosphere, and there are still gases, so for one, it is not properly outer space.

Atmosphere still end up till 10.000km, outer space by strict definition is beyond it.

NASA Website.

BRITANNICA

This is the Japanese Kanji used, which literally means

“cosmic space”
“space of the universe”

Which support the actual strict definition of it, aka it being AFTER earth atmosphere and not INSIDE it.

Thinking this refer to 100 km is completely unsupported by any correct definition.

Debunk of your Average

Spoiler: Your average is invalid

Also your whole reasoning is wrong too, you took the average, but only for the parts you wanted personally, and not for the highest one?

What is the point of doing an average if you just take the middle area? Either you do the weighted average of EVERYTHING, or you do not.

Most likely, 2,000 km was used as a middle/medium value by calc member which is fully reasonable assumption, either you assume that or do a proper weighted average of everything not what you pick.

You can do the weighted average of everything and end up with the original calc distance.

The same link for “blink of an eye” that you posted literally uses “instantaneous” as the definition, which still supports that timeframe.
Anyway, I made three ends for the calc, and two calc members wanted that. It is not unreasonable to use it.

Regarding scaling, and this will answer to everyone else, it will scale.

Simply saying “you have to prove it outpaced the Cero” or “attack speed does not scale” does not really do any meaningful debunk.

Dude said a whole bunch of nothing

"it will scale, im right you're wrong" is not an argument, some bleach characters being above continental does not mean every soul reaper including hanataro is continental too, claiming someone is wrong while being unable to put out anything but repetitive denial is not gonna help you here

For one, you do not have to outpace the Cero in travel speed; you just need to scale in terms of combat. For example, if someone fires a Cero and it can consistently be reacted to or dodged, then you downscale to it.

attempting to reconcile the wank by proposing downscaling leads to grotesque inflation as illustrated by this diagram

It does not even matter if you literally not equal the Cero. What matters is a concept you guys seem to be completely unaware of, which is relativity to something.

this applies on a case by case basis it has been applied on a case by case basis since the dawn of battleboarding shonen manga, depending on how much distance you cover in relation to someone you can be 1000x slower or equal or 100x faster, you can't have that if you just assume arbitrary relativity like downscaling, it's unreliable, heck it's outright incorrect

If two characters are similar, they can fight, dodge, and react to each other’s attacks, and that has always been displayed.

Cien and Zaraki fight for the whole novel, are stated to be equal, and Zaraki should not scale to his Cero? Yet you are even arguing that no one should scale when, as the series progresses, there are dozens of characters several times stronger than Zaraki?

this was debunked before, being above zaraki = your combat speed is above them, not every god damn statistic, a generalised statement isn't all encompassing like that

I asked a couple of times for a single instance where a stronger character could not dodge and got blitzed by a Cero, but it was never presented.

Leona literally brought up Auswahlen, that's the most glaring defeater, you pretended it does not exist

• The Rangiku example shows her side stepping not outpacing
• Shunsui = same as Rangiku
• I'm not even gonna do debunk individual examples because like said several times before a few examples sharing a
  phenomenon is not proof of it happening in every single fight, you would need a statement in bleach that says being above a character means you can outpace their projectiles, otherwise this is PURE headcanon

So we have a plethora of instances where characters who are either relative or stronger scale to the Cero, which has always been the case.

I love how two different users emphasized how Auswahlen makes this argument dead and you still won't acknowledge it but keep parroting this line like some trophy

There are satellite are 35.000 km. So where did you get they don't go above 10.000 km?

As I said, either you do a weighted average OF EVERYTHING. Or not.

We can use the GOCE which is 234 KM above sea level as a lowball

 

[Infinite9Luck]

1. Via the current TL, the "blink of an eye" is in reference to it reaching outer space, which is only 100 km, here's NASA saying that as well since Luck tried using them to say it's actually beyond all of the Earth atmosphere;
2. The average satellite being "2000 km" is wrong and just inflating numbers as over 88% of active satellites are LEO, which is below 2000 km even at it's maximum;
3. Using the statement of "in the blink of an eye" to 0.1 seconds is wrong and 1 second should be used instead;
4. Through both point 1 and 2 together, it's way better to use an average for LEO satellites than wanking it to beyond any LEO satellite despite it being 88% of active satellites, like I did above (Doesn't have to be this exact average, this is just to show how inflated the current number is);

Spoiler: Average while using examples of LEO satellites

[/SPOLER]

Wrong. NASA says the atmosphere ends at around 10,000 km, and outer space, by the strict definition, is beyond Earth’s atmosphere.

The kanji specifically used is 宇宙空間 (uchuu kuukan), which means “outer space” or “space of the universe.” It is the same kanji Kubo used for the vacuum of space in Gremmy’s feat, which cannot exist at only 100 km, since at that height you are still in the heterosphere.

The average is wrong because you did not take into account the possibility of satellites existing at different altitudes. Just because 80% of satellites are below 2,000 km does not mean you can simply discard the possibility of the beam hitting something above that altitude.

55% of orbits are LEO, 35% are GEO, and the remaining 10% are MEO. If you take a weighted average you get something similar to:

Average distance = 0.55*(2000+160)/2 + 0.35*(35786) + 0.1*(2000+35786)/2 = 15008.4 km

 

[Rodriiogo]

There is an explicit feat of a blast reaching outside Earth’s atmosphere, at over 10,000 km, which is the actual proper outer-space distance, instantly. And it is done by a mid arc-manga-level Arrancar. No way Ichigo scales!!!

But it does not support my agenda of MHS Bleach!! so let’s not scale anyone to it despite blatant proof of stronger/comparable characters scaling above or to it.

Let’s also act like outer space is only at 100 km because google gemini says it despite, NASA say atmosphere end at 10.000 km and the Kanji say literally "Space of the Universe!"/Above earth Atmosphere. People don't even realise at 100km you still have gasses around, which defeat the definition of outer space.

Outer Space in Bleach is also used with completely devoid of gas as vacuum, literally Space of the Universe.

"Outer space as Space of the Universe as Vacuum" same Kanji used for Cien's Cero, which imply what I stated. As per by NASA and Britannica definition.

No way you can get FTL with multipliers from an explicit feat of a blast reaching outside Earth’s atmosphere and into outer space!

Okay so you will just keep ignoring NASA and multiple sources disagreeing with you and will keep insisting on "B-BUT IT SAYS ALL OF THE ATMOSPHERE IN THE DEFINITION!!". Then sure I have nothing to say to you and will wait for mods to look at this part and if they wanna go off definition and the opinion of someone over what multiple sources, multiple scientists and NASA themselves say.

No one said to take the smallest value and the biggest value and divide by 2.

Everyone acknowledges that. A weighted average means the large quantity of lower-distance satellites pulls most of the average downward. It does not matter if only 5% are at 35,000 km; they are still part of the distribution. Because even 5% is still POSSIBLE.

There is still a possibility of the target being that far away, so it has to be taken into account in the weighted average.

It is really basics statistic, this is if you want to use AVERAGE.

So either you do that or do not.

Some common sense should be required to do averages you know. We use conservative values on multiple calculations for a reason. Regardless this all leads down to the fact that you keep rejecting that the outer space is "10,000 km" instead of "100 km" so you are ignoring how LEO satellites is way more logical, so then again, I will wait for mods to look at this.

I am curious though if you are gonna keep insisting that outer space is "10,000 km" and that a "blink of an eye" actually means 0.1 seconds why did you not argue the calculation is actually 0.33c via 10km and 0.1 seconds?

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Leona literally brought up Auswahlen, that's the most glaring defeater, you pretended it does not exist

• The Rangiku example shows her side stepping not outpacing
• Shunsui = same as Rangiku
• I'm not even gonna do debunk individual examples because like said several times before a few examples sharing a
  phenomenon is not proof of it happening in every single fight, you would need a statement in bleach that says being above a character means you can outpace their projectiles, otherwise this is PURE headcanon

I love how two different users emphasized how Auswahlen makes this argument dead and you still won't acknowledge it but keep parroting this line like some trophy

We can use the GOCE which is 224 KM above sea level as a lowball

Auswählen is not a Cero, and using Ichigo’s travel speed as an argument against a blast that travels thousands of kilometers is hilarious.

The scaling is for combat speed, not travel speed. Yhwach’s darkness was as fast as Auswählen, and Ichigo reacted to Yhwach’s darkness.

I already posted proof that Ceros are consistently reacted to or dodged by comparable characters.

And you still posted ZERO scans of a stronger character being unable to dodge a cero.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Wrong. NASA says the atmosphere ends at around 10,000 km, and outer space, by the strict definition, is beyond Earth’s atmosphere.

I'm just gonna repeat this one more time despite what I just said since you misinterpreted me:

Are you genuinely going against the scientists at NASA??? They do acknowledge that earth's atmosphere continues after the Kármán line yea you're right there, but that's still not what outer space is on their standards, on the same link up there you will even see scientists bringing the possibility that the lowest % of earth's atmosphere may extend beyond the moon itself, that doesn't mean the Moon is not outer space now because that's the whole reason the Kármán line exists. We use the Kárman line as the beginning of outer space, it's that simple.

Do you not see the issue? Do you want it bigger? You are INDEED going against NASA itself and MULTIPLE scientists standards, sure then:

Okay so you will just keep ignoring NASA and multiple sources disagreeing with you and will keep insisting on "B-BUT IT SAYS ALL OF THE ATMOSPHERE IN THE DEFINITION!!". Then sure I have nothing to say to you and will wait for mods to look at this part and if they wanna go off definition and the opinion of someone over what multiple sources, multiple scientists and NASA themselves say.

The average is wrong because you did not take into account the possibility of satellites existing at different altitudes. Just because 80% of satellites are below 2,000 km does not mean you can simply discard the possibility of the beam hitting something above that altitude.

Which is why I explained why the LEO is way more probable and better to use but alas:

Regardless this all leads down to the fact that you keep rejecting that the outer space is "10,000 km" instead of "100 km" so you are ignoring how LEO satellites is way more logical, so then again, I will wait for mods to look at this.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Some common sense should be required to do averages you know. We use conservative values on multiple calculations for a reason. Regardless this all leads down to the fact that you keep rejecting that the outer space is "10,000 km" instead of "100 km" so you are ignoring how LEO satellites is way more logical, so then again, I will wait for mods to look at this.

I am curious though if you are gonna keep insisting that outer space is "10,000 km" and that a "blink of an eye" actually means 0.1 seconds why did you not argue the calculation is actually 0.33c via 10km and 0.1 seconds?

Being conservative does not mean straight-up ignoring the existence of satellites just because you do not like the result.

They exist, so they should be counted in the weighted average. You do not get to calculate an average using only the lower-altitude satellites and discard the higher-altitude ones. What kind of logic is that?

Either you calculate the weighted average using everything literally taking into account by the numbers of how many, or you do not use a weighted average at all.

As for the timeframe, I am open to using 1 second as well. That is why I literally included it in the calculation.

 

[Nierre]

Through both point 1 and 2 together, it's way better to use an average for LEO satellites than wanking it to beyond any LEO satellite despite it being 88% of active satellites, like I did above (Doesn't have to be this exact average, this is just to show how inflated the current number is);

Not a calc guy but this makes sense to me.

It seems like the Karman Line and the Exosphere are both considered "outer space" according to my little research? The Karman Line however, is internationally recognized as that said boundary, not only that but it can be used as a "low-ball" so I agree. Also definitely agree with using LEO satelites.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Not a calc guy but this makes sense to me.

It seems like the Karman Line and the Exosphere are both considered "outer space" according to my little research? The Karman Line however, is internationally recognized as that said boundary, not only that but it can be used as a "low-ball" so I agree. Also definitely agree with using LEO satelites.

Would it not be better to use the GOCE satellite which was lunched to a hight of 260 KM than lower to 234 KM to save fuel? As a lowball

GOCE

GOCE (Gravity field and steady-state Ocean Circulation Explorer) will be the first of a series of Earth Explorer satellites in orbit, to be developed as part of ESA's Living Planet Programme. Addressing the challenges of global change, GOCE will significantly advance our knowledge of how the...

www.esa.int

 

[Dalesean027]

Gonna need those who you keep make derailing comments, snide remarks, or accusing one side of wanking to cut those comments out. You're creating a unnecessarily hostile thread and arguing more on personal character and agendas rather than actual content, this should be focused to the actual relevant shit not name calling or clogging the thread with goofy remarks. I've deleted some unnecessary comments.


That said I still believe the blink of the eye statement is fine, me and M3X both believe it to still be applicable but yeah if its more a 88% LEO then we should adjust the distance

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

And you still posted ZERO scans of a stronger character being unable to dodge a cero.

I don't need to.

You don't get to cherry pick conditions to be shown as if that's compulsory for your logic to be incorrect.

Like I said before a phenomenon shown in some cases is not evidence for it applying to all cases, claims of it applying to all cases would require statements addressing all cases

E.g. Some Shinigami being Continental is not proof of fodder shinigami like Hanataro being continental

This is an evidence requirement you can't tip toe around, you NEED to show that. No buts or ifs.

Onto a different topic,
as for distance of the satellite, why are we using averages when it the outliers clearly skew the result to be much higher? We should use Median values for accuracy and reliability

either that or put the GEO large figures behind possibly ratings since the likelyhood of that compared to the LEO is nearly invisible

 

[Infinite9Luck]

M3X knew perfectly well that 80% are LEO. The 2,000 km value he proposed is simply an assumption I think.

Even using only the average LEO distance is still a very low-ball-ish approach. It completely ignores any other scenario that could exponentially increase the feat.
So either a middle ground should be found, or assuming an arbitrary value is still fine IMO.

Low end: 160 km
LEO end: 500–2,000 km (Up to 88%)
MEO end: 10,000–23,000 km
GEO end: 35,786 km

I don't need to.

You don't get to cherry pick conditions to be shown as if that's compulsory for your logic to be incorrect.

Like I said before a phenomenon shown in some cases is not evidence for it applying to all cases, claims of it applying to all cases would require statements addressing all cases

E.g. Some Shinigami being Continental is not proof of fodder shinigami like Hanataro being continental

This is an evidence requirement you can't tip toe around, you NEED to show that. No buts or ifs.

What kind of strawman is this? I literally SHOWN it.

They were comparable and all dodged/recated. ALWAYS, Zero instances of the opposite if someone is stronger.

"Some Shinigami being Continental is not proof of fodder shinigami like Hanataro being continental" it is crazy how you are assuming things I never implied.

Literally said that character, that are STRONGER at least scale.

Having said that, all mod still agree with scaling, so not losing time in debating common sense unless some mod disagree.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I honestly can’t believe this thread turned into a shitfest

 

[GTsek]

That said I still believe the blink of the eye statement is fine, me and M3X both believe it to still be applicable but yeah if its more a 88% LEO then we should adjust the distance

I agree that "in the blink of an eye" should be used, however, you still haven't given an opinion on what time period should be used. So, in addition to the distance, you and M3X (Or another CGM, since is a M3X calc, he can't evaluate it but he can give his opinion on it) also need to define the time period.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Gonna need those who you keep make derailing comments, snide remarks, or accusing one side of wanking to cut those comments out. You're creating a unnecessarily hostile thread and arguing more on personal character and agendas rather than actual content, this should be focused to the actual relevant shit not name calling or clogging the thread with goofy remarks. I've deleted some unnecessary comments.


That said I still believe the blink of the eye statement is fine, me and M3X both believe it to still be applicable but yeah if its more a 88% LEO then we should adjust the distance

LEO = 6,768 / 7,560 = 89.52%
MEO = 143 / 7,560 = 1.89%
GEO = 590 / 7,560 = 7.80%
Elliptical = 59 / 7,560 = 0.78%

Average distance = 0.8952(1080) + 0.0189(18893) + 0.0780(35786)

Average distance = 966.816 + 357.0777 + 2791.308

Average distance = 4115.2017 km

Average distance ≈ 4,115 km

or a 2nd Scenario, can be just do 160+2000/2 = 1080 km.

Even if not evenly distributed, we are also ignoring any higher one existing.

Or the 2.000 km proposed.

Can't think of other solution.

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

I agree with @Rodriiogo regarding the scaling variables and data.

Assuming outer space starts where earth's atmosphere ends just takes advantage of the blurry nature of the "line" that separates it, The most common practical boundary scientists use as Rodrigo stated is the Kármán line so using it is way more solid as anything else assumes "outerspace" is defined as having a place with no atmospheric particles, which is as far I know isn't really a valid definition, it's the same thing as saying "The moon is inside a very diffuse extension of Earth’s atmosphere therefore it's not within outerspace" as no scientific community is going to take that seriously.

I also agree with point using LEO satellites and that how the averages were calced is wanked if I read correctly.

 

[TheDeadman21]

I don't need to.

You don't get to cherry pick conditions to be shown as if that's compulsory for your logic to be incorrect.

Like I said before a phenomenon shown in some cases is not evidence for it applying to all cases, claims of it applying to all cases would require statements addressing all cases

E.g. Some Shinigami being Continental is not proof of fodder shinigami like Hanataro being continental

This is an evidence requirement you can't tip toe around, you NEED to show that. No buts or ifs.

How is it cherry picking? If all the evidence shows that relative or stronger characters can dodge the opponent's Ceros and nothing shows the opposite, a statement is not required. You need to prove that despite the consistent on-screen showings, it's not the case.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Other times, the same kanji has been used in the series to refer to a vacuum. The kanji literally means “space + of the universe,” and it is used the same way in both instances.

This is a valid definition according to reputable dictionaries. Also, the atmosphere is scientifically defined as extending up to around 10,000 km.

I am not saying the Kármán line definition is not used as well. It is legitimate.

But acting as if, based on context, 宇宙空間 "space of the universe/Outer Space) cannot refer to much greater distances is dishonest. I already proved that, in the manga, the author used it to refer to a vacuum, which would require a distance much, much farther than 100 km.

The existence of satellites up to around 35,000 km also does not defeat this definition.
Not saying to use those, but just straight up ignoring context around the word is also bad.

So if we pick distances like 1k, 2k, it is contradicted by really nothing, since the word itself imply much above any 100 km.

So again, either we take cases like this into account, or we are just picking the lowest possible interpretation while ignoring other interpretations that are also legitimate.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Apparently this has become a pseudo calc thread so yeah ive been asked to comment here.

Outer space would start at 100 km (why is this even being discussed).
Using 2000 km (or anything higher) doesn’t make sense as the vast majority of satellites are below this. A weighted average of everything also isn’t accurate in this case as it would include extremely high values which distort the average and make it inaccurate. Averages can be unreliable in cases like this.
Getting an average for the satellites in low earth orbit would seem like the best distance to use in this calc.

Not really saying anything new here but since im a cgm i guess i should comment. As for the timeframe, I personally wouldn’t favor the literal use of these kinds of expressions in general.

 

[Mommyleona]

Simply saying “you have to prove it outpaced the Cero” or “attack speed does not scale” does not really do any meaningful debunk.

It does, you're the one with the burden of proof to show characters meaningfully matching Cien's cero speed, not just other random encounters of random characters

For one, you do not have to outpace the Cero in travel speed; you just need to scale in terms of combat.

What does this even mean? You have to actually outpace the movement of cero in the same timeframe to scale (or at least be relative consistently to it in speed), to simplify
"Cero moves 5m while you move 6m in the same time window", not "You closely dodged a Cero while it traveled 100km in roughly the same time"

if someone fires a Cero and it can consistently be reacted to or dodged, then you downscale to it.

Yea, exactly, but you're not bringing up examples of idk, Zaraki consistently dodging Cien's Ceros, you're bringing up unrelated fights

Cien and Zaraki fight for the whole novel, are stated to be equal, and Zaraki should not scale to his Cero?

He can be equal to Cien, yet be slower overall than his Cero, that's pretty normal

Now, beside the agenda to do not want people to scale, I'll wait a SINGLE scene of a stronger character unable to dodge or React a single Cero.

Yoruichi is largely superior to Yammy in speed

Yet she can't dodge his cero and needs to be saved by Kisuke

(ignore the chopped translation)

So here you go, a far stronger and faster character outsped by a Cero (Kisuke in this case would be superior to both tho)

Or another example of otherwise relative characters, SK Almighty Yhwach and HOS Ichigo

Clearly far faster than Yhwach himself

Or another example, Toshiro who's relative to Harribel, can only narrowly avoid serious damage and still gets hit by her cero

So this isn't some automatic thing, you have to show that, for example, Zaraki, actually consistently scales to the Cero