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Bleach EoS Updates
- Thread starter LordAizenSama
- Start date
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- Tags
- bleach sosuke aizen yhwach
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I agree with Aizen. Yhwach should be at least 5-B as we have Saitama with the likely atleast because he overpowered Boros. Yes the upgraded seems reasonable base on Lina suggestions.
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I also agree with Aizen and Lina. I know that Ichigo, and Aizen are a bit stronger than whats been shown. Yhwach is likely far higher than planet level depending on the size of
Hueco Mundo.
Soul Society.
And the Dangai Precipice World that separates them.
Though the size of said dimensions is impossible to calculate making Yhwach's true tier level unknown.
Hueco Mundo.
Soul Society.
And the Dangai Precipice World that separates them.
Though the size of said dimensions is impossible to calculate making Yhwach's true tier level unknown.
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What about the databook? It says that Soul Society and the living world are parallelal to each other. And from the manga we know it has a sun and a moon.
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Yeah if Yhwach was talking about including outerspace from the 3 worlds then that would make him like a 2-C character for destorying multiple universes. I never heard Yhwach say that he was changing the universe so that wouldn't make any sence to me.HokageMangaVox said:
He'd be the largest glass cannon I've ever seen if this were the case! lol
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Yeah if Yhwach was talking about including outerspace from the 3 worlds then that would make him like a 2-C character for destorying multiple universes. I never heard Yhwach say that he was changing the universe so that wouldn't make any sence to me.
He'd be the largest glass cannon I've ever seen if this were the case! lol
Your replied is off-topic. I was talking about the planet.
Databook:
http://rs928.pbsrc.com/albums/ad121/gias14/Odd/96.png?w=480&h=480&fit=clip
The redline info was explain in the manga:
He'd be the largest glass cannon I've ever seen if this were the case! lol
Your replied is off-topic. I was talking about the planet.
Databook:
http://rs928.pbsrc.com/albums/ad121/gias14/Odd/96.png?w=480&h=480&fit=clip
The redline info was explain in the manga:
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Lets say SS is another Earth, Yhwach would still only be 5-B since Ant said destroying 3 Earth sized worlds is still Planet level - hence at least 5-B, possibly far higher for Yhwach.
So I just re-checked Lina's suggestion and it had the Full Power key for Ichigo. It should be for his True Bankai key. Now that I think about it, Ichigo rarely used his Quincy powers offensively (only showed defensively like once) and his hollows powers didn't seem to affect Yhwach even though he is technically a Quincy (maybe that changed since absorbing the SK). So I suggest adding "possibly higher" after Planet level for Ichigo and Aizen.
So I just re-checked Lina's suggestion and it had the Full Power key for Ichigo. It should be for his True Bankai key. Now that I think about it, Ichigo rarely used his Quincy powers offensively (only showed defensively like once) and his hollows powers didn't seem to affect Yhwach even though he is technically a Quincy (maybe that changed since absorbing the SK). So I suggest adding "possibly higher" after Planet level for Ichigo and Aizen.
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So planet level ichi huh...never thought i'd see the day...
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I don't agree with this it seems odd, if anything his merged hollow with bankai which Yhwach destroy before he could use should be his strongest form. Seems Yhwach fear it.
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Hollow form shikai =/= Hollow form bankai <.< which he feared.KuuIchigo said:
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It still doesn't change the fact that Ichigo cut Yhwach in half twice in his Shinigami powered Bankai, which should still be most of his powers considering Quincy Zangetsu supressed them.
And honestly, we don't have any information on that merged form... This would be soo much easier if we did.
And honestly, we don't have any information on that merged form... This would be soo much easier if we did.
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I'm just saying that form was stronger. Which should be in his profile as Unknown.
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There are a lot of characters at unknown, and have you check Naruto's keys? Lol this form is after the one you're talking about. It won't effect your "upgrade."
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They both have 12 keys, 13 for Ichigo if I add this one. And what does adding it have to do with the upgrade? You're making it seem like I'm trying to disregard anything that might not let this happen. Sure I'm defending it only because the evidence are there and Lina's reasoning isn't unreasonable. But that's besides the point. I don't want to go off-topic on this. I'll just add it when I update their profiles.
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The form has nothing to do with your upgrade. This form is just superior to that one, no matter if the upgrade is accepted or not. It should still be in his profile as unknown .KuuIchigo said:
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All good. By the way, there's an error in Ichigo's page, the photo that says " True Bankai" is the one I'm talking about and it should be True Bankai/Merged Hollow or something like that. While in his true bankai form should go with a photo of him without the hollow horn and markings.KuuIchigo said:
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We should able to find one. Mmm. Something like this: http://www1.mangafreak.net/Read1_Bleach_685_3#gohere, for his bankai after the sheet broke.
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Okay, Im a bit lost. Could someone please explain how we're scaling Aizen's durability to Yhwach's casual AP and landing on Planet Level for him too?
Since we cant calc. Yhwach's feat we'll just have to assume that since he is destroying 3 planets (technically one planet, one maybe planet and one endless plane...) he is 3x lower bound Planet Level, so this is his max possible AP (for now lets ignore Star Level or Universal Yhwach theories...). We are now arguing that the attack Yhwach used on Aizen was, while casual, still in the Planet Level range.
Honestly, that doesnt make sense to me. Aizen came out of that attack literally completely unharmed but when he actually started fighting Yhwach, he was getting ripped apart like it was nothing by an Yhwach who was still very much casual. To say that the attacks that easily tore his limbs off where only 3x stronger (and this is assuming Yhwach was using his full power at the time, which I doubt) than the attack that didnt even phase him seems very odd.
The argument that "Yhwach having Planet AP but Moon dura is weird", is pretty flimsy since we have plenty of glass canons on this site.
And the fact that he called Ichigo's bankai "fearsome" really doesnt really say much. Kaguya was very afraid of Momoshiki and Kinshiki but they are trash compared to her. Besides, Yhwach was right to fear that bankai since it was capable of slicing him in half even in its weakened form, and that says more about his durability rather than Ichigo's AP...
Even from a lore perspective it doesnt make sense for Ichigo to be so close to Yhwach in power. Yhwach is the strongest Quincy to ever live and is empowered by Mimihagi and the SK, Ichigo (who is at that point simply a stronger than average shinigami) being so close to Yhwach in power makes no sense.
Besides, we already have a calc. for a casual Yhwach dont we? Why not just use that and add "likely higher" on the end of it? Wouldnt that be the safer bet?
Seriously, I think LordAizenSama's original suggestion made the most sense... Meh, I see quite a few people are behind this so if someone can just reasonably explain this scaling to me Ill drop it...
Since we cant calc. Yhwach's feat we'll just have to assume that since he is destroying 3 planets (technically one planet, one maybe planet and one endless plane...) he is 3x lower bound Planet Level, so this is his max possible AP (for now lets ignore Star Level or Universal Yhwach theories...). We are now arguing that the attack Yhwach used on Aizen was, while casual, still in the Planet Level range.
Honestly, that doesnt make sense to me. Aizen came out of that attack literally completely unharmed but when he actually started fighting Yhwach, he was getting ripped apart like it was nothing by an Yhwach who was still very much casual. To say that the attacks that easily tore his limbs off where only 3x stronger (and this is assuming Yhwach was using his full power at the time, which I doubt) than the attack that didnt even phase him seems very odd.
The argument that "Yhwach having Planet AP but Moon dura is weird", is pretty flimsy since we have plenty of glass canons on this site.
And the fact that he called Ichigo's bankai "fearsome" really doesnt really say much. Kaguya was very afraid of Momoshiki and Kinshiki but they are trash compared to her. Besides, Yhwach was right to fear that bankai since it was capable of slicing him in half even in its weakened form, and that says more about his durability rather than Ichigo's AP...
Even from a lore perspective it doesnt make sense for Ichigo to be so close to Yhwach in power. Yhwach is the strongest Quincy to ever live and is empowered by Mimihagi and the SK, Ichigo (who is at that point simply a stronger than average shinigami) being so close to Yhwach in power makes no sense.
Besides, we already have a calc. for a casual Yhwach dont we? Why not just use that and add "likely higher" on the end of it? Wouldnt that be the safer bet?
Seriously, I think LordAizenSama's original suggestion made the most sense... Meh, I see quite a few people are behind this so if someone can just reasonably explain this scaling to me Ill drop it...
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Casual? Yhwach was pretty serious when fighting against Aizen. Moreso then when he fought against Ichigo.
Someone in the same tier can still heavily damage another. Aizen took all of those damage and didn't even faze. Even after Yhwach dying and reviving attacked Ichigo and Aizen the former took it while the latter survived.
No one said that? I said Aizen tanking Planet level attacks and only getting Moon dura is weird. I know there are glass cannons.
It's obvious that Yhwach is talking about Tensa Zangetsu's powers - not it's cutting ability. Yhwach has grabbed Ichigo's sword plenty of time. Why would he be afraid of getting cut?
You can still be in the same tier as another even if they're completely superior. Ichigo and Aizen will only be Planet level while Yhwach is at least Planet level, possibly far higher. So while in the same tier, they are not close to Yhwach's powers
Again, Yhwach was not casual. He literally after blowing a hole in Aizen, went to erase Soul Society. Only to be stopped by Ichigo.
Honestly, Lina's suggestion made more sense. Seeing as Moon level and Planet level are far apart, it doesn't make sense to rate them as Moon level when they can damage and tank a Planet level character.
Someone in the same tier can still heavily damage another. Aizen took all of those damage and didn't even faze. Even after Yhwach dying and reviving attacked Ichigo and Aizen the former took it while the latter survived.
No one said that? I said Aizen tanking Planet level attacks and only getting Moon dura is weird. I know there are glass cannons.
It's obvious that Yhwach is talking about Tensa Zangetsu's powers - not it's cutting ability. Yhwach has grabbed Ichigo's sword plenty of time. Why would he be afraid of getting cut?
You can still be in the same tier as another even if they're completely superior. Ichigo and Aizen will only be Planet level while Yhwach is at least Planet level, possibly far higher. So while in the same tier, they are not close to Yhwach's powers
Again, Yhwach was not casual. He literally after blowing a hole in Aizen, went to erase Soul Society. Only to be stopped by Ichigo.
Honestly, Lina's suggestion made more sense. Seeing as Moon level and Planet level are far apart, it doesn't make sense to rate them as Moon level when they can damage and tank a Planet level character.
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Im pretty sure he was still very casual. He spent the entire fight trash talking and mocking everyone. Hell, when he finally impaled Aizen/Ichigo he said "Its been fun Ichigo"... He only got pissed when he died the first time, and then proceeded to absorb everyone.
Im not saying people from the same tier cant damage eachother, Im just comparing the extent of the damage to the difference in assumed AP. There is a big discrepancy. After Yhwach revived Aizen was instantly absorbed and Ichigo was in the process of being absorbed too so I dont see what that has to do with dura at all...
Woops, my bad. I misread what you were saying. Sorry.
When I say "sliced him in half" I wasnt explicitly talking about its cutting ability, I was referring to the fact that it could kill him.
Refer back to my second point. Besides, where is this "at least" and "likely much higher" coming from for Yhwach? Didnt we agree that 3x Planet Level is still Planet level? I thought we were only gonna add that stuff if Ichigo and Aizen became Planet Level so we could imply that he is stronger than them.
Refer to my first point. He only got serious after getting sliced in half.
Aizen is the only person to have tanked Yhwach (in that mindset), once. And while its true that Planet and Moon are far apart thats why we add "likely higher" at the end of it. Hell, we could add "likely much higher" if you think its more appropriate. Im just saying that using the calc. would be a much safer low-ball as opposed to just arbitrarily assuming Yhwach used a certain amount of power in that attack.
Im not saying people from the same tier cant damage eachother, Im just comparing the extent of the damage to the difference in assumed AP. There is a big discrepancy. After Yhwach revived Aizen was instantly absorbed and Ichigo was in the process of being absorbed too so I dont see what that has to do with dura at all...
Woops, my bad. I misread what you were saying. Sorry.
When I say "sliced him in half" I wasnt explicitly talking about its cutting ability, I was referring to the fact that it could kill him.
Refer back to my second point. Besides, where is this "at least" and "likely much higher" coming from for Yhwach? Didnt we agree that 3x Planet Level is still Planet level? I thought we were only gonna add that stuff if Ichigo and Aizen became Planet Level so we could imply that he is stronger than them.
Refer to my first point. He only got serious after getting sliced in half.
Aizen is the only person to have tanked Yhwach (in that mindset), once. And while its true that Planet and Moon are far apart thats why we add "likely higher" at the end of it. Hell, we could add "likely much higher" if you think its more appropriate. Im just saying that using the calc. would be a much safer low-ball as opposed to just arbitrarily assuming Yhwach used a certain amount of power in that attack.
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Lets say he was casual, he would still be doing Planet level damage.
I'm pretty sure he wasn't absorbing anyone. Ichigo was getting damaged. And overunned by darkness. Completely different when he absorbed Ichigo's powers.
No worries.
That just reinforces the fact that Ichigo can take Yhwach on since he can see into the future. I don't know about Kaguya's comparison.
Ant said that, but he was unsure. And again, even if we remove "at least" or "possibly higher", you can still be in the same tier and still be superior to the other character.
My first point in this comment.
He tanked multiple attacks - even while "casual" is still Planet level damage. And those "likely higher" are used when we don't have evidence. But we do when Aizen tanked those attacks.
Edit: And if I don't reply, I might have fallen asleep (I'm on my phone and need to get ready to sleep for work). I'll address your comment/s tomorrow. Sorry about that.
I'm pretty sure he wasn't absorbing anyone. Ichigo was getting damaged. And overunned by darkness. Completely different when he absorbed Ichigo's powers.
No worries.
That just reinforces the fact that Ichigo can take Yhwach on since he can see into the future. I don't know about Kaguya's comparison.
Ant said that, but he was unsure. And again, even if we remove "at least" or "possibly higher", you can still be in the same tier and still be superior to the other character.
My first point in this comment.
He tanked multiple attacks - even while "casual" is still Planet level damage. And those "likely higher" are used when we don't have evidence. But we do when Aizen tanked those attacks.
Edit: And if I don't reply, I might have fallen asleep (I'm on my phone and need to get ready to sleep for work). I'll address your comment/s tomorrow. Sorry about that.
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But how do you know that? Like I said before, Yhwach is not that far into Planet Level so he could conceivably be doing non-planet level damage when casual. This is reinforced by the fact that in one instance Aizen is tanking his attacks like its nothing and in another he is getting wrecked.
Im saying he absorbed them like he did Mimihagi and the SK. At least Im pretty sure thats what he's doing seeing as Aizen disappeared and Ichigo was getting sucked into the darkness
I am just very confused about what we are arguing in this point... To reiterate, Im saying that Yhwach feared Tensa Zangetsu because it could damage him, as it did, even in a weaker form. What are you saying?
Well since we cant calc it we will just have to take the lower bound of Planet and multiply by 3 (which is still a stretch seeing as we have Hueco Mundo in the mix) which is still Planet Level (unless you want to argue stuff like Star Level Yhwach). I know that but once again, 3x stronger doesnt give enough room for casual attacks to vary so wildly in damage.
Once again, you cant just assume that. But we HAVE evidence, we have a whole calc. for casual Yhwach.
No worries dude, you can reply when you wake up. Night
Im saying he absorbed them like he did Mimihagi and the SK. At least Im pretty sure thats what he's doing seeing as Aizen disappeared and Ichigo was getting sucked into the darkness
I am just very confused about what we are arguing in this point... To reiterate, Im saying that Yhwach feared Tensa Zangetsu because it could damage him, as it did, even in a weaker form. What are you saying?
Well since we cant calc it we will just have to take the lower bound of Planet and multiply by 3 (which is still a stretch seeing as we have Hueco Mundo in the mix) which is still Planet Level (unless you want to argue stuff like Star Level Yhwach). I know that but once again, 3x stronger doesnt give enough room for casual attacks to vary so wildly in damage.
Once again, you cant just assume that. But we HAVE evidence, we have a whole calc. for casual Yhwach.
No worries dude, you can reply when you wake up. Night
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Because being casual doesn't suddenly make you drop a tier. Going down from 5-B to 5-C is stretching it even if it was casual considering the large gap. Pretty sure it happens in most battle shounens. One point they are tanking everything, and another they are getting hurt.
IIRC, when he abosorbed Mimihagi and the SK, he needed to use his hands.
I also have no idea. I think what I was trying to say is that Yhwach being able to see into the future and fearing Ichigo's powers reinforces the fact that Ichigo is able to take on Yhwach.
I hope I'm doing this right, but the lowest bound of Planet level 59.44 Zettatons, multiplying it 3 times is 178.32 Zettatons. There is plenty of room for a casual attack. So as I said before, being casual doesn't suddenly make you drop a tier.
My first point. Even so, when a character that had a casual calc or not gets upgraded and is once again casual with their new AP, we don't suddenly start using their old AP which had a calc or not just because they are casual. I have not seen the case with anyone else.
Thanks. Going to sleep now. Tired af.
IIRC, when he abosorbed Mimihagi and the SK, he needed to use his hands.
I also have no idea. I think what I was trying to say is that Yhwach being able to see into the future and fearing Ichigo's powers reinforces the fact that Ichigo is able to take on Yhwach.
I hope I'm doing this right, but the lowest bound of Planet level 59.44 Zettatons, multiplying it 3 times is 178.32 Zettatons. There is plenty of room for a casual attack. So as I said before, being casual doesn't suddenly make you drop a tier.
My first point. Even so, when a character that had a casual calc or not gets upgraded and is once again casual with their new AP, we don't suddenly start using their old AP which had a calc or not just because they are casual. I have not seen the case with anyone else.
Thanks. Going to sleep now. Tired af.
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It certainly can, especially when you arent that far into a Tier to begin with. Thats why we dont often scale characters when they are in a casual fight. For example, back when Yhwach turned off Almighty to fight Ichigo, we didnt scale him since it was obvious that Yhwach was just toying with him. Or for example Naruto and Sasuke took multiple hits from "At least Small Planet Level" Kaguya but we keep them at "Moon+" since she wasnt really trying to kill them. I get that 5-B to 5-C is a big difference but when we have no proof as to how much power casual Yhwach uses its much safer to resort to the calc we have (of him being casual) and add "likely higher" or something to compensate for the inaccuracy. Well, with Shonen logic we can just call Aizen tanking Yhwach PIS considering how inconsistant it is, which I dont think anyone wants...
That was when he was in his "human" form, now he was a massive sentient blob of darkness. So yeah, still pretty sure he was absorbing them. Besides it makes sense that he would try to absorb them since Yhwach surely knows that Aizen is immortal so regular "kills" wouldnt do much to him.
Well, I mean its obvious that Ichigo could "take on" Yhwach seeing as he was able to kill him. Anyways, I actually dont remember how this relates to the convo at hand so if its fine with you I suggest we drop it before we get more confused...
Dont think about it with numbers as its just more confusing. Think about it in multiples. Let me try to make my point simpler: You assume the minimum durability Aizen has is lower bound Planet Level (59.44 Zettatons). The max AP Yhwach has (assuming both Hueco Mundo and SS are earth sized) is 3x Planet Level. Yhwach's first attack was completely useless against Aizen but his other casual attacks managed to easily mutilate him. Making the assumptions that Aizen is literally borderline Planet in dura and that during their fight Yhwach was using his undiluted full power (very unlikely since, as we agreed, he was still being casual), those attacks can conceivably only be 3x stronger at most, and to go from completely ineffective to grievous wounds with that small a power jump makes no sense. Now on the other hand if Yhwach's first casual attack (that Aizen tanked) was Moon (the calc), but his other slightly less casual attacks (that mutilated Aizen) were Small Planet or Planet or something, there would be a large enough power increase to warrant the change in effectiveness.
But we dont know if Yhwach can use his new AP casually. This is the same Yhwach from the Moon calc. That was casual, Planet is serious. I dont see whats out of the ordinary. He reached Planet AP by claiming he was gonna combine (whatever that means) one confirmed planet and two realms that might be planets (though as far as I know more evidence points to infinite planes) while also merging the concept of life and death with an unknown technique over an unknown period of time. We are already giving him quite a bit of leeway by scaling this to his regular AP as opposed to a special technique or hax or something. LordAizen's idea compensated for this by arguing Yhwach's casual AP is what was previously calced, which is reasonable since it was the same form and in his words " it seems to be the best way to describe the attacks he used on Ichigo/Aizen. works for a safe lowball too".
Ait, talk to you tomorrow or something.
That was when he was in his "human" form, now he was a massive sentient blob of darkness. So yeah, still pretty sure he was absorbing them. Besides it makes sense that he would try to absorb them since Yhwach surely knows that Aizen is immortal so regular "kills" wouldnt do much to him.
Well, I mean its obvious that Ichigo could "take on" Yhwach seeing as he was able to kill him. Anyways, I actually dont remember how this relates to the convo at hand so if its fine with you I suggest we drop it before we get more confused...
Dont think about it with numbers as its just more confusing. Think about it in multiples. Let me try to make my point simpler: You assume the minimum durability Aizen has is lower bound Planet Level (59.44 Zettatons). The max AP Yhwach has (assuming both Hueco Mundo and SS are earth sized) is 3x Planet Level. Yhwach's first attack was completely useless against Aizen but his other casual attacks managed to easily mutilate him. Making the assumptions that Aizen is literally borderline Planet in dura and that during their fight Yhwach was using his undiluted full power (very unlikely since, as we agreed, he was still being casual), those attacks can conceivably only be 3x stronger at most, and to go from completely ineffective to grievous wounds with that small a power jump makes no sense. Now on the other hand if Yhwach's first casual attack (that Aizen tanked) was Moon (the calc), but his other slightly less casual attacks (that mutilated Aizen) were Small Planet or Planet or something, there would be a large enough power increase to warrant the change in effectiveness.
But we dont know if Yhwach can use his new AP casually. This is the same Yhwach from the Moon calc. That was casual, Planet is serious. I dont see whats out of the ordinary. He reached Planet AP by claiming he was gonna combine (whatever that means) one confirmed planet and two realms that might be planets (though as far as I know more evidence points to infinite planes) while also merging the concept of life and death with an unknown technique over an unknown period of time. We are already giving him quite a bit of leeway by scaling this to his regular AP as opposed to a special technique or hax or something. LordAizen's idea compensated for this by arguing Yhwach's casual AP is what was previously calced, which is reasonable since it was the same form and in his words " it seems to be the best way to describe the attacks he used on Ichigo/Aizen. works for a safe lowball too".
Ait, talk to you tomorrow or something.
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Mmm. You could argue it both ways. One might say that because Yhwach was casual it doesn't result in Planet level AP, while the other side can argue Yhwach would have needed to be casual to the point of using 0.05% of his power for their current AP.
A interesting discussion. well for the most part I think i'm neutral on this. If i'm leaning towards anything it's that the Moon level Aizen and Ichigo is alot more well founded and much harder to break down as a argument.
A interesting discussion. well for the most part I think i'm neutral on this. If i'm leaning towards anything it's that the Moon level Aizen and Ichigo is alot more well founded and much harder to break down as a argument.
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While I won't even dare to step into the above argument, I do feel that (once again) Ichigo at his greatest is easily above Moon level since all those moon level feats were preformed by a depowered Ichigo using only his Shinigami powers. Ichigo at his strongest was undoubtedly his Merged Hollow Bankai form. Obviously that's speculation but Yhwach didn't even give him a chance in that form because he knew how powerful it was. Also it's worth mentioning that Aizen was getting mutilated because he was just using illusions to string Yhwach along to keep him from noticing he's not actually fighting 3 people. He wasn't fighting him head on or even trying to be careful. Just saying, but anyways I think Ichigo and Aizen being planet level could be easily argued either way
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^This
Could be argued either way. But Yhwach most likely saw ichigo using his bankai to slay yhwach in a possible future, or he wouldn't have bothered to go to that extent and wipe out any possibility of using his bankai on him.
It's a bit sad how if we had gotten a final databook or atleast like 10-15 more chapters we probably won't even be having this argument right now lol.
Could be argued either way. But Yhwach most likely saw ichigo using his bankai to slay yhwach in a possible future, or he wouldn't have bothered to go to that extent and wipe out any possibility of using his bankai on him.
It's a bit sad how if we had gotten a final databook or atleast like 10-15 more chapters we probably won't even be having this argument right now lol.
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Maybe, but besides the fact that Merged Hollow Bankai Ichigo should be his strongest form, its all pure speculation at this point. Besides, Ichigo's depowered Bankai proved enough to kill Yhwach anyway so it didnt really matter in the end...
Definitely, 10 more chapters would have been a God send. So many unanswered questions...
Definitely, 10 more chapters would have been a God send. So many unanswered questions...
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