Black Hat Downgrade

[DimeUhDozen]

So, currently Black Hat is Low 2-C via scaling above Crossover Anti-Pops.

Although there is a problem here.

At this point in time, Anti-Pops was weakened by Pops's hug, and Flug explicitly states that he reduced both of their power levels so much so that the sun could incinerate them both. By the time that he had kicked Pops out and grabbed Anti-Pops, both of them were severely weakened below Low 2-C levels. Black Hat doesn't even kill Anti-Pops himself. He just puts him in the hands of an alien. So yeah -- Low 2-C is kinda moot.

Agree: Ikelaggan, Dark_Soul20189, Aolphl, rpmblack (4)
Disagree: Half_Shiny (1)
Neutral:

 

[LaserPrecision]

I was under the impression that he upscaled from Anti-Pops because Anti-Pops feared him. If that isn't grounds to scale, then I recall some feats that put him in like Tier 4 range IIRC.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

I was under the impression that he upscaled from Anti-Pops because Anti-Pops feared him. If that isn't grounds to scale, then I recall some feats that put him in like Tier 4 range IIRC.

BH already has fear-inducing SI and all that, so I wouldn't say it's heavy evidence, yeah.

 

[Ikelaggan]

I'm in agreement of downgrading blackhat and his diet fusion fall nonsense.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

I'm in agreement of downgrading blackhat and his diet fusion fall nonsense.

The virgin Fraud Hat vs the chad Lord Fuse.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Seems Logical, Put me in Agree for now.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Seems Logical, Put me in Agree for now.

Counted.

 

[TheShape03]

It's said that Anti-Pops wanted to become Black Hat's apprentice, and apparently Anti-Pops has a lot of respect for him, but I'm not sure if that's hard evidence. It was also said in the series that Black Hat never had anything close to a rival (except a tablet xd), which would have to include Anti-Pops.

Edit: Flug describes Black Hat's DNA as "the strongest DNA of all."

 

[DimeUhDozen]

It's said that Anti-Pops wanted to become Black Hat's apprentice, and apparently Anti-Pops has a lot of respect for him, but I'm not sure if that's hard evidence. It was also said in the series that Black Hat never had anything close to a rival (except a tablet xd), which would have to include Anti-Pops.

Yeah, this was implied to have been some time ago and we don't know how powerful Anti-Pops was then and Black Hat is some thousand year old being. Black Hat is a grade A villain but we can't exactly scale that to power.

Edit: Flug describes Black Hat's DNA as "the strongest DNA of all."

Pretty sure that's hyperbole and even if that were possible, it's a little to broad for scaling.

 

[Aolphl]

I did something similar to this recently.

Some Black Hat Downgrades (Villainous)

Black Hat's Plot Manipulation: Plot Manipulation (Created Villainous and has shown to shoot down plot points) We are reviewing the first scan provided: Alan: And that's how the idea started. I also based it on people I knew... Puppet: This lazy bum lies. One day, he was desperate that he made...

vsbattles.com

Although the arguments about crossovers being a One-Sided Canon are ridiculous, I didn't want to touch on these issues in my previous revision, anyway, I agree.

 

[rpmblack]

Agreed, Low 2-C characters dieing to the sun always kind of bugged me in this scaling of black hat.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Tbf, I don't think dying to the sun by itself is really an anti-feat. You could just say they're dying to the heat. Doesn't the wiki separate resistance to heat from dura/ap?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Tbf, I don't think dying to the sun by itself is really an anti-feat. You could just say they're dying to the heat. Doesn't the wiki separate resistance to heat from dura/ap?

Flug does say that both were weakened when they died to the sun.

 

[TheShape03]

Actually, I think I found enough evidence to prove that Black Hat is more powerful than Anti-Pops.

• It was said that there has never been a hero capable of opposing him, that he has never encountered an enemy that has been a challenge to him, and that there is no hero at the level of Black Hat (Pops is described by Flug as a hero) .
• Black Hat's DNA is described as "the strongest DNA of all", Flug has no reason to speak in hyperbole, in the scene he was trying to provide Vilgax with the power to defeat Ben and he took the liberty of adding the DNA that he considered "the strongest of all", meaning that Flug considers Black Hat more powerful than at least any character he knows.
• It was said that he never had anything close to a rival.
• Anti-Pops continues to show him the same respect as before (Lmao, BH even treats him like a moron throughout the entire episode).

 

[Half_Shiny]

When asked on why BH didn't want Anti-pops
"Malim has a simple motive: the complete destruction of the universe"

This version of Anti-Pops is fully aware of this
"Otherwise he will just restart his universe over and over again forever. This process has been recorded many times in the body of this man", then cuts to him attempting to track down pops to fulfil this.


Despite all of this power and knowledge of exactly how it would go, Anti-pops still asked to be BH's apprentice.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Flug does say that both were weakened when they died to the sun.

I think that's fine. I was just responding to the comment about that Tier 2 characters by default shouldn't be harmed by the sun or smth. Which would be problematic considering pretty much any character above Tier 4 realistically shouldn't be affected by heat that much irl, yet it is common practice in fiction. Since heat is often treated different from dura.

 

[Aolphl]

Black Hat's DNA is described as "the strongest DNA of all", Flug has no reason to speak in hyperbole, in the scene he was trying to provide Vilgax with the power to defeat Ben and he took the liberty of adding the DNA that he considered "the strongest of all", meaning that Flug considers Black Hat more powerful than at least any character he knows.

Ben 10 Reboot's Omnitrix is Low 5-B
Edit: And in the crossover is also unknown how powerful this Omnitrix is.

 

[Half_Shiny]

Ben 10 Reboot's Omnitrix is Low 5-B

Crossover rules: it doesn't have the same scale as the original

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Actually, I think I found enough evidence to prove that Black Hat is more powerful than Anti-Pops.

• It was said that there has never been a hero capable of opposing him, that he has never encountered an enemy that has been a challenge to him, and that there is no hero at the level of Black Hat (Pops is described by Flug as a hero) .

We just kind of have to take his word for it and he answered it rather quickly. This is likely referred to heroes in his universe and Black Hat only encountered Pops at his weakened state. He's said this without backing it up.

• Black Hat's DNA is described as "the strongest DNA of all", Flug has no reason to speak in hyperbole, in the scene he was trying to provide Vilgax with the power to defeat Ben and he took the liberty of adding the DNA that he considered "the strongest of all", meaning that Flug considers Black Hat more powerful than at least any character he knows.

Well, at that point Anti-Pops is dead and Pops is weakened so... He's not lying.

• It was said that he never had anything close to a rival.
• Anti-Pops continues to show him the same respect as before (Lmao, BH even treats him like a moron throughout the entire episode).

When asked on why BH didn't want Anti-pops
"Malim has a simple motive: the complete destruction of the universe"

This version of Anti-Pops is fully aware of this
"Otherwise he will just restart his universe over and over again forever. This process has been recorded many times in the body of this man", then cuts to him attempting to track down pops to fulfil this.


Despite all of this power and knowledge of exactly how it would go, Anti-pops still asked to be BH's apprentice.

Black Hat doesn't reject him because of his power. He just finds that destroying the universe as an idea is dumb. He's an exceptional villain, the best of the best, and he frequently scares the crap out of others with an intimidating aura, but he has never displayed anything on that level of power otherwise.

 

[Aolphl]

Crossover rules: it doesn't have the same scale as the original

Already edited

 

[TheShape03]

Ben 10 Reboot's Omnitrix is Low 5-B
Edit: And in the crossover is also unknown how powerful this Omnitrix is.

Flug added that DNA because he considered it "the strongest of all", so he is not referring to it being limited to simply being stronger than any DNA within the Omnitrix, he refers to the fact that, generally, Black Hat's DNA is "the strongest of all" and that is why he added it.

 

[Aolphl]

It was said that there has never been a hero capable of opposing him, that he has never encountered an enemy that has been a challenge to him, and that there is no hero at the level of Black Hat (Pops is described by Flug as a hero)

It was said that he never had anything close to a rival.

Lmao this things literally nothing

 

[Aolphl]

Flug added that DNA because he considered it "the strongest of all", so he is not referring to it being limited to simply being stronger than any DNA within the Omnitrix, he refers to the fact that, generally, Black Hat's DNA is "the strongest of all" and that is why he added it.

Bruh dude what? Flug has never said anything like that, he just said that Black Hat's DNA is the strongest DNA in the Omnitrix, and according to the Crossover rules of Villainous, we don't know how strong that Omnitrix is.

 

[TheShape03]

We just kind of have to take his word for it and he answered it rather quickly. This is likely referred to heroes in his universe and Black Hat only encountered Pops at his weakened state. He's said this without backing it up.

He answered quickly because he is not interested in answering questions and wants to do it quickly, he said it himself before starting to answer. Not to say that he has no reason to lie and he seems to be quite sincere with other questions. The fact that there is no hero at his level would already put him above Pops.

Well, at that point Anti-Pops is dead so... He's not lying.

No, at that moment Anti-Pops is not dead yet, that video was uploaded on April 9, 2018, the video of the crossover with Regular Show was uploaded on July 14, 2018.

He's an exceptional villain, the best of the best, and he frequently scares the crap out of others with an intimidating aura, but he has never displayed anything on that level of power otherwise.

Anti-Pops is not only afraid of him, he has remarkable respect for him. BH also treats him like an inferior idiot throughout the episode, even when he knows that Anti-Pops has the power to destroy the universe.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

He answered quickly because he is not interested in answering questions and wants to do it quickly, he said it himself before starting to answer.

I'm sorry, but you just kinda broke your own argument there.

No, at that moment Anti-Pops is not dead yet, that video was uploaded on April 9, 2018, the video of the crossover with Regular Show was uploaded on July 14, 2018.

Then, I refer my argument to Aophl's below:

Bruh dude what? Flug has never said anything like that, he just said that Black Hat's DNA is the strongest DNA in the Omnitrix, and according to the Crossover rules of Villainous, we don't know how strong that Omnitrix is.

Anti-Pops is not only afraid of him, he has remarkable respect for him. He also treats him like an inferior idiot throughout the episode, even when he knows that Anti-Pops has the power to destroy the universe.

Yeah, as a villain. Black Hat can be a better and scarier villain than Anti-Pops (especially after seeing how emotionally unstable he is) and still just not be as powerful.

 

[Half_Shiny]

Black Hat doesn't reject him because of his power. He just finds that destroying the universe as an idea is dumb. He's an exceptional villain, the best of the best, and he frequently scares the crap out of others with an intimidating aura, but he has never displayed anything on that level of power otherwise.

Why would Anti-pops ask for help then? Since we are told nothing the BHO sells would be on BH's level. Which we know he isn't lying since he is still selling these items.

 

[TheShape03]

Bruh dude what? Flug has never said anything like that, he just said that Black Hat's DNA is the strongest DNA in the Omnitrix, and according to the Crossover rules of Villainous, we don't know how strong that Omnitrix is.

Spanish is my main language, I understand what Flug is saying.

Flug says that he "added the strongest DNA of all" to the Omnitrix, meaning that he already considered it as such before adding it to the Omnitrix, it being "the strongest DNA of all" was the reason for adding it.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Why would Anti-pops ask for help then? Since we are told nothing the BHO sells would be on BH's level. Which we know he isn't lying since he is still selling these items.

Anti-Pops asked for help because he wants to be as successful a villain as Black Hat is which would take into account more than just power. But Black Hat rejected him because he was a pussy and short-sighted. Plus:

Yeah, this was implied to have been some time ago and we don't know how powerful Anti-Pops was then and Black Hat is some thousand year old being. Black Hat is a grade A villain but we can't exactly scale that to power.

 

[Aolphl]

He answered quickly because he is not interested in answering questions and wants to do it quickly, he said it himself before starting to answer. Not to say that he has no reason to lie and he seems to be quite sincere with other questions. The fact that there is no hero at his level would already put him above Pops.

Yes, he gives random answers because he doesn't want to answer the questions, he did nothing but answer the questions by fudging.

The fact that there is no hero at his level would already put him above Pops.

If a character who is 5-C has fought characters who are incomparably weaker than him, that's fine, 5-C and are not comparable to each other in 7-C.

No, at that moment Anti-Pops is not dead yet, that video was uploaded on April 9, 2018, the video of the crossover with Regular Show was uploaded on July 14, 2018

The crossovers don't gets anything away from the main show.

Anti-Pops is not only afraid of him, he has remarkable respect for him. He also treats him like an inferior idiot throughout the episode, even when he knows that Anti-Pops has the power to destroy the universe.

Anti-Pops can't destroy the universe by himself, he first needs to change into Titan form in order for him to destroy the universe. And at the end of his battle with his brother Pops, the universe disappears as a result of fists hitting each other.

 

[Aolphl]

Spanish is my main language, I understand what Flug is saying.

Flug says that he "added the strongest DNA of all" to the Omnitrix, meaning that he already considered it as such before adding it to the Omnitrix, it being "the strongest DNA of all" was the reason for adding it.

Omnitrix is not gets any things main show (and this Omnitrix is Reboot's Omnitrix, and Reboot's Omnitrix is Low 5-B at bets on Wiki) and Anti-Pops's or Pops's DNA is not in Omnitrix.

 

[TheShape03]

Yes, he gives random answers because he doesn't want to answer the questions, he did nothing but answer the questions by fudging.

Meh, that's fair.

The crossovers don't take anything away from the main show.

What I mean is that the crossover with Regular Show happened after the crossover with Ben 10. So Anti-Pops wasn't dead when Flug made that statement.

Anti-Pops cannot destroy the universe in his normal state, he only destroys the universe in his Titan form as a result of the overlap of fists at the end of his battle with his brother Pops.

Any evidence that his titan form increases his stats?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Any evidence that his titan form increases his stats?

Out of titan form, Flug states that Anti-Pops is weakened.

 

[TheShape03]

Omnitrix is not gets any things main show (and this Omnitrix is Reboot's Omnitrix, and Reboot's Omnitrix is Low 5-B at bets on Wiki) and Anti-Pops's or Pops's DNA is not in Omnitrix.

Bro, you're not understanding and I'm starting to get annoyed at having to explain it over and over again. Flug thought Black Hat's DNA was "the strongest of all" before adding it to the Omnitrix, which was why he added it. He doesn't mean it's simply "the strongest DNA in the Omnitrix," he thought it was the "strongest of all" before adding it. Meaning that he considered Black Hat to be the strongest character he knows and because of his "DNA stronger than all", he added that DNA to the Omnitrix.

 

[Half_Shiny]

Now proof that the de powered version while small still have the AP to contest the large versions. Pops was able to stop AntiPops blast for a second. Even if he still loses, it contested a low 2-C character. Which makes him the same tier.

 

[TheShape03]

Out of titan form, Flug states that Anti-Pops is weakened.

Fair point.

Edit: However, this is also a point.

Now proof that the de powered version while small still have the AP to contest the large versions. Pops was able to stop AntiPops blast for a second. Even if he still loses, it contested a low 2-C character. Which makes him the same tier.

 

[Aolphl]

What I mean is that the crossover with Regular Show happened after the crossover with Ben 10. So Anti-Pops wasn't dead when Flug made that statement.

Prove that the DNA of the Anti-Pops is inside that Omnitrix, which is not an argument that can be used if the opposite is the case.

Any evidence that his titan form increases his stats?

Yes, in Titan form, Anti-Pops can easily destroy planets, but in its normal form, it can only get rid of a ship or a Space Deer after a certain amount of time has passed.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Now proof that the de powered version while small still have the AP to contest the large versions. Pops was able to stop AntiPops blast for a second. Even if he still loses, it contested a low 2-C character. Which makes him the same tier.

No? It was just for a minuscule tiny little second and he's quickly overpowered anyways. There's no reason to scale him to that.

 

[Aolphl]

Bro, you're not understanding and I'm starting to get annoyed at having to explain it over and over again. Flug thought Black Hat's DNA was "the strongest of all" before adding it to the Omnitrix, which was why he added it. He doesn't mean it's simply "the strongest DNA in the Omnitrix," he thought it was the "strongest of all" before adding it. Meaning that he considered Black Hat to be the strongest character he knows and because of her "DNA stronger than all", he added that DNA to the Omnitrix.

Haaa, wait, I need to think about this.

 

[TheShape03]

No? It was just for a minuscule tiny little second and he's quickly overpowered anyways. There's no reason to scale him to that.

However, he stopped the blast for a few seconds. Pops couldn't do that if he were infinitely weaker.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

However, he stopped the blast for a few seconds. Pops couldn't do that if he were infinitely weaker.

He's still very much weaker and it would not make narrative sense if he was on the same tier in this state anyways. Scaling rules would also defy this. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, he was still seconds away from powering up too.