Black Hat Downgrade

[Aolphl]

Bro, you're not understanding and I'm starting to get annoyed at having to explain it over and over again. Flug thought Black Hat's DNA was "the strongest of all" before adding it to the Omnitrix, which was why he added it. He doesn't mean it's simply "the strongest DNA in the Omnitrix," he thought it was the "strongest of all" before adding it. Meaning that he considered Black Hat to be the strongest character he knows and because of his "DNA stronger than all", he added that DNA to the Omnitrix.

Flug literally destroyed Black Hat's DNA with a simple fire xd

 

[Half_Shiny]

He's still very much weaker and it would not make narrative sense if he was on the same tier in this state anyways.

That is subjective here, like you said he is much weaker. A power up gives him the boost to be on the same level. But the clip shows he has some level of power in base after the training montage.

Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, he was still seconds away from powering up too.

Even then that is still seconds away. The main argument is that he is completely different when powered up.

 

[Half_Shiny]

Flug literally destroyed Black Hat's DNA with a simple fire xd

We don't see the Omnitrix destroyed lol, just on fire

 

[DimeUhDozen]

That is subjective here, like you said he is much weaker. A power up gives him the boost to be on the same level. But the clip shows he has some level of power in base after the training montage.

Even then that is still seconds away. The main argument is that he is completely different when powered up.

Even then, why are you scaling post-training montage Pops to a no training Base Anti-Pops?

 

[Aolphl]

We don't see the Omnitrix destroyed lol, just on fire

Flug uses fire to destroy Black Hat's DNA, which he claims is the most powerful and clearly superior to his own. Am I the only one who sees the contradiction here?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Adding onto this, if the previous argument is to be believed, there's no way to become as strong as Black Hat.

"The strongest DNA" would merely refer to whatever race Black Hat belongs to at a fundamental level, which wouldn't correlate to them at their maximum potential. Why would Flug ever give Vilgax something that could make him as strong as Black Hat anyways then?

 

[Half_Shiny]

Even then, why are you scaling post-training montage Pops to a no training Base Anti-Pops?

Because before training he struggled to squeeze a lemon

after training he fights Base Anti-pops (who had no training)

 

[Aolphl]

Adding onto this, if the previous argument is to be believed, there's no way to become as strong as Black Hat.

"The strongest DNA" would merely refer to whatever race Black Hat belongs to at a fundamental level, which wouldn't correlate to them at their maximum potential. Why would Flug ever give Vilgax something that could make him as strong as Black Hat anyways then?

If only I had more accurate English, I would have noticed such things sooner.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Because before training he struggled to squeeze a lemon

after training he fights Base Anti-pops (who had no training)

So are we saying Mordecai is Low 2-C now because he harmed Base Anti-Pops?

 

[TheShape03]

Flug uses fire to destroy Black Hat's DNA, which he claims is the most powerful and clearly superior to his own. Am I the only one who sees the contradiction here?

We only see Flug setting the Omnitrix on fire, we don't see it being destroyed.

Adding onto this, if the previous argument is to be believed, there's no way to become as strong as Black Hat.

To be fair, as we discussed before (and in the end I agreed with you), those answers are dubious. And anyway, there are more adjectives in there besides "strong," like evil and big.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

To be fair, as we discussed before (and in the end I agreed with you), those answers are dubious. And anyway, there are more adjectives in there besides "strong," like evil and big.

Still doesn't disprove the argument that it would be vastly out of Flug and Black Hat's interests to make Vilgax as strong as Black Hat and the fact that DNA only refers to the fundamentals argument.

 

[Aolphl]

We only see Flug setting the Omnitrix on fire, we don't see it being destroyed.

When you express that something is the most powerful, especially if it is many times stronger than you, how can you use fire to destroy its DNA?

And also, I'm moving on from here:

Adding onto this, if the previous argument is to be believed, there's no way to become as strong as Black Hat.

"The strongest DNA" would merely refer to whatever race Black Hat belongs to at a fundamental level, which wouldn't correlate to them at their maximum potential. Why would Flug ever give Vilgax something that could make him as strong as Black Hat anyways then?

Still doesn't disprove the argument that it would be vastly out of Flug and Black Hat's interests to make Vilgax as strong as Black Hat and the fact that DNA only refers to the fundamentals argument.

 

[TheShape03]

Yeah, this was implied to have been some time ago and we don't know how powerful Anti-Pops was then and Black Hat is some thousand year old being. Black Hat is a grade A villain but we can't exactly scale that to power.

That is also a conjecture supported by nothing. You would have to prove that Anti-Pops was infinitely weaker on that occasion.

Black Hat also threatened to burn Anti-Pops to ashes (in the subtitles it says "before I turn you to pieces" but originally he says "antes de que te haga cenizas").

 

[DimeUhDozen]

That is also a conjecture supported by nothing. You would have to prove that Anti-Pops was infinitely weaker on that occasion.

you mean like how flug did in the scan at the literal start of the crt

Black Hat also threatened to burn Anti-Pops to ashes (in the subtitles it says "before I turn you to pieces" but originally he says "antes de que te haga cenizas").

He said that to him in base.

It's also very telling that you're changing the subject to an earlier argument because you have no answers for this one.

 

[TheShape03]

you mean like how flug did in the scan at the literal start of the crt

That doesn't prove that they aren't Low 2-C, it proves that they are weaker than their Titan forms.

So, let's recap.

- Black Hat's answers are dubious, so let's ignore them.

- The issue of "stronger DNA" is also dubious.

- Black Hat is at least superior to base Anti-Pops, given that he easily overpowered him. And Anti-Pops had a lot of respect for him to the point of kneeling before him and asking to be his apprentice. Black Hat also threatened to reduce Anti-Pops to ashes.

So, the only thing that seems to be left on the table to defend Black Hat's Low 2-C is the issue of the base forms of Pops and Anti-Pops and how much power they have compared to the Titan forms, which are the ones who perform the Low 2-C feat. The base forms are weaker than the Titan forms, but the base forms can still stop the power of the Titan forms for a few seconds, which would not be possible if they were infinitely weaker.

Do we have anything against that? if we can eliminate this argument then I will agree with the downgrade.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Black Hat is at least superior to base Anti-Pops, given that he easily overpowered him. And Anti-Pops had a lot of respect for him to the point of kneeling before him and asking to be his apprentice. Black Hat also threatened to reduce Anti-Pops to ashes.

Yes.

So, the only thing that seems to be left on the table to defend Black Hat's Low 2-C is the issue of the base forms of Pops and Anti-Pops and how much power they have compared to the Titan forms, which are the ones who perform the Low 2-C feat. The base forms are weaker than the Titan forms, but the base forms can still stop the power of the Titan forms for a few seconds, which would not be possible if they were infinitely weaker.

Do we have anything against that? if we can eliminate this argument then I will agree with the downgrade.

Easy.

Flug states that because they are no longer in base, something that is as simple as being harmed by a sun is enough to kill them.

That's far below Low 2-C.

 

[TheShape03]

Tbf, I don't think dying to the sun by itself is really an anti-feat. You could just say they're dying to the heat. Doesn't the wiki separate resistance to heat from dura/ap?

I'm going to quote this user's comment.

They could die from it simply because they have no heat resistance.

 

[TheShape03]

Also, there is something that seems strange to me. Why would Anti-Pops have so much respect for him to the point of kneeling and begging to be his apprentice, if supposedly transforming into his Titan form would be enough to destroy Black Hat?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

I'm going to quote this user's comment.

They could die from it simply because they have no heat resistance.

Base Anti-Pops is also shown to struggle with a Space Deer and Mordecai as well.

It's really a large gap and scaling Base Pops to Titan Pops would cause massive scaling issues in-verse already.

Also, there is something that seems strange to me. Why would Anti-Pops have so much respect for him to the point of kneeling and begging to be his apprentice, if supposedly transforming into his Titan form would be enough to destroy Black Hat?

I have already went over this and you can look up the previous arguments if you want to know my answer.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

CRT seems pretty straight forward, I agree.

Although perhaps Black Hat could still scale to this universal Anti-Pops, albeit through his abilities, not his physical power. From the looks of things, he is treated as the most powerful CN villain, and it would be consistent going off what he already has with his Reality Warping, with his profile saying that he once created a multiverse contained in a book. It has been a while since I've looked into Villainous, so I'm not the best judge on that.

 

[Half_Shiny]

Base Anti-Pops is also shown to struggle with a Space Deer and Mordecai as well.

Yeah that isn't a power thing, they didn't see it coming and crashed. Still haven't shown a link to the Mordecai as well.

It's really a large gap and scaling Base Pops to Titan Pops would cause massive scaling issues in-verse already.

Edit: How so? This has no relations to regular show and doesn't cause a scaling issue between Base Pops and Titan Pops in Villainous is minimal. All we know of this verse it pretty much from this episode and random reoccurrences of the characters.

 

[TheShape03]

Base Anti-Pops is also shown to struggle with a Space Deer and Mordecai as well.

Link? I saw the episode and I don't remember anything like it.

It's really a large gap and scaling Base Pops to Titan Pops would cause massive scaling issues in-verse already.

It doesn't, they could still be Low 2-C, but a little weaker.

I have already went over this and you can look up the previous arguments if you want to know my answer.

If you mean fear induction, that still doesn't explain why Anti-Pops would rather be a pussy who kneels at Black Hat's feet and receives his threats instead of just transforming into his Titan form and tearing him to pieces. Not to mention that the fact that he wants to be his apprentice shows that he respects him and sees him as someone superior.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Yeah that isn't a power thing, they didn't see it coming and crashed. Still haven't shown a link to the Mordecai as well.

Here. He was crushed by an arcade machine by Mordecai and he groaned.

Edit: How so? This has no relations to regular show and doesn't cause a scaling issue between Base Pops and Titan Pops in Villainous is minimal. All we know of this verse it pretty much from this episode and random reoccurrences of the characters.

Still portrays the other Regular Show characters as much weaker in the episode.

It doesn't, they could still be Low 2-C, but a little weaker.

Mordecai can not destroy a universe.

If you mean fear induction, that still doesn't explain why Anti-Pops would rather be a pussy who kneels at Black Hat's feet and receives his threats instead of just transforming into his Titan form and tearing him to pieces. Not to mention that the fact that he wants to be his apprentice shows that he respects him and sees him as someone superior.

Yeah. Fear Induction. Black Hat's Subjective Reality hax. Makes sense why he would be scared.

 

[TheShape03]

Mordecai can not destroy a universe.

Why not?

Yeah. Fear Induction.

I insist, why doesn't Anti-Pops transform into his Titan form and kill him?

Black Hat's Subjective Reality hax. Makes sense why he would be scared.

Are you referring to the 2-B that BH has due to Creation and Subjective Reality?

Multiverse level via Creation (With Black Hat's Subjective Reality he was able to create a book with +3556 worlds/realities, which was recognized as different reality by a creature who tracked people when they went to different realities.[1])

Why would he be scared of something that does not serve to destroy anything, but is a power that only serves to create xd?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Why not?

He's a regular guy who doesn't even hold a candle to the titan forms. This is how the story is portraying him and how it is shown.

I insist, why doesn't Anti-Pops transform into his Titan form and kill him?

Because he's too scared to? Because BH has vastly more hax? Because of his reputation? Nobody knows how powerful Black Hat is, but he carries himself with such a fearsome atmosphere and accomplishments that it feels like he's powerful enough to rip you apart with a glare.

 

[TheShape03]

He's a regular guy who doesn't even hold a candle to the titan forms. This is how the story is portraying him and how it is shown.

I stress that this can still work like this:

Titan Forms (Low 2-C) > Base Forms = Mordecai (Low 2-C, but lower)

Or simply the Mordecai thing may be an outlier if a normal guy is supposed to be hurting such a powerful being.

Because he's too scared to? Because BH has vastly more hax? Because of his reputation? Nobody knows how powerful Black Hat is, but he carries himself with such a fearsome atmosphere and accomplishments that it feels like he's powerful enough to rip you apart with a glare.

Well, this is fair.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

I stress that this can still work like this:

Titan Forms (Low 2-C) > Base Forms = Mordecai (Low 2-C, but lower)

Or simply the Mordecai thing may be an outlier if a normal guy is supposed to be hurting such a powerful being.

Anti-Pops was still harmed by an arcade machine.

Not even by Mordecai's fists.

An ARCADE MACHINE.

The only outlier here is by Base Pops countering Titan Anti-Pops which --is right before his own Titan power-up burst. Make sense?

 

[TheShape03]

Anti-Pops was still harmed by an arcade machine.

Not even by Mordecai's fists.

An ARCADE MACHINE.

It turns out that now characters above Tier 2 cannot use objects to fight because that belies their level.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

It turns out that now characters above Tier 2 cannot use objects to fight because that belies their level.

Counterpoint. He was crushed by an arcade machine as a tier 2.

 

[TheShape03]

Counterpoint. He was crushed by an arcade machine as a tier 2.

So if a Tier 2 character throws a car at another Tier 2 character, would you say that the first character is not Tier 2 because the car was not reduced to atoms while traveling or when it collided with the second character?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

So if a Tier 2 character throws a car at another Tier 2 character, would you say that the first character is not Tier 2 because the car was not reduced to atoms while traveling or when it collided with the second character?

No, because base Anti-Pops nor Mordecai were never shown to be anywhere near Tier 2 besides the one Base Pops feat that happens seconds before his power up, do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[TheShape03]

No, because base Anti-Pops nor Mordecai were never shown to be anywhere near Tier 2 besides the one Base Pops feat that happens seconds before his power up, do you see where I'm going with this?

The thing with that is that it happened BEFORE his power up. The dictionary defines before as "at or during a time earlier than (the thing mentioned)" which means that HE HAD NOT YET ACCESSED HIS MAXIMUM POWER (the power that his titan form has) AT THAT MOMENT, that scene where Base Pops briefly stops Titan Anti-Pops' blast happens BEFORE his power up.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

The thing with that is that it happened BEFORE his power up. The dictionary defines before as "at or during a time earlier than (the thing mentioned)" which means that HE HAD NOT YET ACCESSED HIS MAXIMUM POWER (the power that his titan form has) AT THAT MOMENT, that scene where Base Pops briefly stops Titan Anti-Pops' blast happens BEFORE his power up.

Seconds before it. Seconds. He's showing incredible willpower that is gradually becoming stronger until it culminates in his awakening.

 

[TheShape03]

Seconds before it. Seconds. He's showing incredible willpower that is gradually becoming stronger until it culminates in his awakening.

Eh no, he's totally in his base form. When Muscle Man and Hi Five Ghost are killed by Anti-Pops, he becomes angry and unleashes all of his power by turning into his Titan form.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Eh no, he's totally in his base form. When Muscle Man and Hi Five Ghost are killed by Anti-Pops, he becomes angry and unleashes all of his power by turning into his Titan form.

Is this all you have?

 

[TheShape03]

Is this all you have?

Yeah? The fact that he was able to momentarily stop the blast (despite being quickly overpowered) is something that would be impossible if he were infinitely uncountable (the difference between Low 2-C and any tier below) weaker.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Yeah? The fact that he was able to momentarily stop the blast (despite being quickly overpowered) is something that would be impossible if he were infinitely uncountable (the difference between Low 2-C and any tier below) weaker.

I rest my case.

 

[TheShape03]

Yeah? The fact that he was able to momentarily stop the blast (despite being quickly overpowered) is something that would be impossible if he were infinitely uncountable (the difference between Low 2-C and any tier below) weaker.

Cough cough.

Bro, it's like you're telling me that the air could slightly stop one of my punches, which would even be less crazy because the air would produce a 10-C strength instead of an 11-A or less.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Cough cough.

Bro, it's like you're telling me that the air could slightly stop one of my punches, which would even be less crazy because the air would produce a 10-C strength instead of an 11-A or less.

If the air was seconds away from unleashing it's anime power up, yeah.

 

[TheShape03]

If the air was seconds away from unleashing it's anime power up, yeah.

You seriously need to learn the concept of "before" and "after", even if he was about to unleash his power, he hadn't done so, nor had he started to do so.