Bionicle General Discussion Thread

[Lonkitt]

I thought this would be a good idea. Bionicle could use some cleaning up on the wiki so we can use this thread to share new feats and so forth. Plus, it's just another reason to talk about the franchise.


Feel free to begin the discussion

 

[Promestein]

Feel free to ping me if you find any new relevant feats.

 

[Neutralino]

How should we treat the low ends? Either as outliers or inconsistencies? Some of them are so embarrassingly weak that the characters in question would be very easy to defeat, so I say it's safe to treat them as outliers inconsistent with the overall setting.

One of the most egregious showings is how Teridax was defeated in movie 2 - being crushed by a large rock, and the same thing happened to Whenua and Nuju who were knocked out by falling boulders during a cave-in. Another is Sidorak being threatened by a fall from a building in chapter 9 of Challenge of the Hordika.

Sidorak clung to the top of the tower. The nearest web was a long way below and there was no guarantee he would not simply plunge through it and end up a very messy blotch on the ground. Better to climb back up and reassess the situation. A rumble came from below. He looked down to see a wall of earth rising up to surround the tower. At the same moment, water spinners produced a drenching rain centered on the structure. The ledge grew slick. Sidorak made a last effort to pull himself back to the roof, but his claws slipped. He hurled himself as far from the building as he could, aiming for what looked like a strong section of web.

Sidorak is supposed to be physically stronger than a Toa. This could possibly be explained that physical strength is a separate stat from durability.

Another is in the Mutran Chronicles, where a Makuta's protosteel armour was damaged so much by falling debris from the Destral fortress that he had to be relocated into a temporary body. The fortress was constructed from ordinary stone and metal, not protosteel or any super strong materials.

I was about to crush him with the perfect insult in response when the world shook. We were both thrown off our feet as a violent earthquake struck Destral. Masonry cracked, ceilings collapsed, and it was all I could to do to shapeshift a pair of claws to dig into the stone floor and hold on. The shaking lasted perhaps a few seconds, or perhaps forever, depending on your viewpoint.

When it was over, I struggled to my feet. The fortress of Destral was in ruins. Some of our prisoners were dead, some wounded. At least one of my fellow Makuta had seen his armor damaged to the point where his energy was floating freely in the air (fortunately, we were able to get him into an Exo-Toa body until his armor could be repaired). Most beings would have reacted to this event with despair, even panic, and I have no doubt many of those mewling Matoran out in the larger universe were doing just that.

 

[Lonkitt]

Low end stuff like falling debris being a threat is most definitely just an inconsistency. There's no need to separate power from durability IMO (and there are instances of weaker characters surviving that kind of stuff, such as Hakann in his fight with Zaktan)

 

[Neutralino]

Low end stuff like falling debris being a threat is most definitely just an inconsistency. There's no need to separate power from durability IMO (and there are instances of weaker characters surviving that kind of stuff, such as Hakann in his fight with Zaktan)

I'm sure that the examples I listed are not the only ones. These aren't exactly isolated incidents.

 

[Lonkitt]

I'm aware, but feats in Bionicle tend to be well above the damage that debris falling comes out at. This kind of instance being a threat to the characters doesn't entirely line up with the kinds of threats characters have been built up to be. Additionally, characters would be dying a lot more often if falling chunks of rocks were enough to take them out

 

[Shadyboi0]

Yo Yo Piraka, Nuju>Kopaka imo

 

[Neutralino]

I'm aware, but feats in Bionicle tend to be well above the damage that debris falling comes out at. This kind of instance being a threat to the characters doesn't entirely line up with the kinds of threats characters have been built up to be. Additionally, characters would be dying a lot more often if falling chunks of rocks were enough to take them out

Yes, there are much higher showings like Lehvak-Kal's overloaded vacuum powers blasting it through 8 layers of solid stone all the way into orbit - which it survived. I'm just saying that the low ends exist, and I'm not entirely comfortable scaling everyone to my high 6A calc when it's just WoG and these are actual anti-feats.

 

[Lonkitt]

Its alright if you don't think the High 6-A calc should be what scales verse wide, I'm sure we'll find a more comfortable rating after analyzing feats like that one

 

[Neutralino]

Its alright if you don't think the High 6-A calc should be what scales verse wide, I'm sure we'll find a more comfortable rating after analyzing feats like that one

At least high 6A isn't an isolated statement - Greg said that all nova blasts used inside the GSR are actually inherently nerfed by the robot to reduce collateral damage. If one is used in an uncontrolled environment, it can be strong enough to lifewipe a planet or even destroy it. He says, for example, that Gali could raise the sea level of Aqua Magna - which is several times larger than Earth - enough to flood its landmasses, if it had any that is. The question asker even says that Greg said a gravity nova burst could destroy a planet, although I haven't found the quote in question yet.

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Since the MU is an artificial environment, the odds are there are safeguards to protect other domes from a nova blast that takes place in one. But if you think about, most Toa powers would, if unleashed uncontrolled, have the ability to either do serious physical damage to a planet that might a) destroy it or b) render it incapable of supporting life or c) wipe out most of the life on a planet. If Gali's powers caused the sea level of Aqua Magna to rise sufficiently, maybe it floods most of the landmasses and kills much of the population.

 

[Lonkitt]

What surprises me more is that Greg says that a Toa could actually survive it, with the threat of Jaller's in Mahri Nui being the lack of water after it would've been vaporized. Like thats a pretty heavy claim

 

[Neutralino]

What surprises me more is that Greg says that a Toa could actually survive it, with the threat of Jaller's in Mahri Nui being the lack of water after it would've been vaporized. Like thats a pretty heavy claim

Indeed, but he seems to have put a decent amount of thought into that answer.

But he also said that a gravity nova blast would create a black hole and the toa who created it would be sucked into it. So there's at least one form of nova blast the user would not be able to survive using.

Official Greg Dialogue | Page 319

Page 319 of Official Greg Dialogue.

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I found someone's calc for an iron nova blast. They got 2.34 x 10^28 joules.

https://board.ttvchannel.com/t/bion...ne-and-everyone-should-be-scared-of-toa/66565

High 6A may not be as farfetched as it might seem, especially since Jaller was about to use his nova blast outside the GSR where it wasn't affected by the limiter.

 

[Neutralino]

@Promestein, any thoughts about the preceding discussion, especially the statements regarding the GSR limiting nova blasts that could inflict planetary damage otherwise?

 

[Lonkitt]

If the planetary statement does in fact exist, it may justify the High 6-A scaling more. To explain what I mean, some may think that scaling wouldn't make sense, given the Nova Blast is seen as a last resort attack greater than most attacks a Toa can dish out. So if Nova Blasts are nerfed when within the GSR, that naturally means most Nova Blasts performed in lore were weaker than they would be unrestrained. Given Greg's statement we went over about, I believe that may imply that High 6-A scaling (for those who apply) doesn't contradict the nature of the Nova Blast

Food for thought

 

[Lonkitt]

On another note, I would like to dive into looking at the skill level of Bionicle characters. Given many Toa, Dark Hunters, etc. live for thousands of years and have a great deal of combat experience and impressive skill displays in that time, could be something worth covering on the pages

 

[Promestein]

At least high 6A isn't an isolated statement - Greg said that all nova blasts used inside the GSR are actually inherently nerfed by the robot to reduce collateral damage. If one is used in an uncontrolled environment, it can be strong enough to lifewipe a planet or even destroy it. He says, for example, that Gali could raise the sea level of Aqua Magna - which is several times larger than Earth - enough to flood its landmasses, if it had any that is. The question asker even says that Greg said a gravity nova burst could destroy a planet, although I haven't found the quote in question yet.

I dunno what it'd be. It'd have to be calced. But it's also a "maybe" WoG, we can't base anything off of ground that iffy, certainly not this huge of an upgrade. The Iron calc should be referred to a calc member, but I don't think it holds up to scrutiny. It uses energy-mass conversion, which we generally do not use for these sorts of things. If anything, you'd calc the kinetic mass of that much iron being expelled at high speeds over such large a range.

A Gravity Nova Blast potentially destroying the planet is a definite statement, I guess. I didn't find an exact quote but I've seen multiple references to it. I personally wouldn't base anything off of such an out-of-nowhere WoG statement. Another statement by Greg does seem to imply Gravity is the strongest Toa element, though, so even if we did go with it it'd be Gravity Toa exclusive.

If High 6-A Nova Blasts are consistent, it's pretty much entirely based off of WoG and should be relegated to a likely or possibly after the 6-C; then again, I feel like 6-C is also based off of WoG, so uh, maybe? I'd have to refind the 6-C statement. (Found it) I'm personally pretty against universal High 6-A scaling. Tier 7 is consistent for Toa (lots of weather and storm feats, Tahu melting a wave of sand, Pohatu's feat, and maybe some others I'm forgetting), but Tier 6 for their regular things is pushing it. A Toa surviving their Nova Blast doesn't mean they tank it.

And, for the record, Lehvak-kal's feat is probably Tier 8, and at best, lower Tier 7. I tried to get it calced before, IIRC.

 

[Neutralino]

If High 6-A Nova Blasts are consistent, it's pretty much entirely based off of WoG and should be relegated to a likely or possibly after the 6-C; then again, I feel like 6-C is also based off of WoG, so uh, maybe? I'd have to refind the 6-C statement. (Found it) I'm personally pretty against universal High 6-A scaling. Tier 7 is consistent for Toa (lots of weather and storm feats, Tahu melting a wave of sand, Pohatu's feat, and maybe some others I'm forgetting), but Tier 6 for their regular things is pushing it. A Toa surviving their Nova Blast doesn't mean they tank it.

6C isn't entirely reliant on WoG; Gali's nova blast in the story did cover the entirety of the Karzahni island. While the size of it isn't known, it likely isn't that much smaller than Metru Nui, which itself isn't very large by island standards.

High 6A would only apply to a nova blast, which already is not a typical showing for toa; current profiles already specify that they're 6C via nova blasts only. Even if Jaller wouldn't be tanking his own attack, Makuta would, which is consistent with the portrayal of Makuta being much stronger than toa.

 

[Promestein]

6C isn't entirely reliant on WoG; Gali's nova blast in the story did cover the entirety of the Karzahni island. While the size of it isn't known, it likely isn't that much smaller than Metru Nui, which itself isn't very large by island standards.

Already calced. City level feat, not Island level.

High 6A would only apply to a nova blast, which already is not a typical showing for toa; current profiles already specify that they're 6C via nova blasts only. Even if Jaller wouldn't be tanking his own attack, Makuta would, which is consistent with the portrayal of Makuta being much stronger than toa.

I know, but there was talk about it scaling more universally and I'm against that. Makuta certainly aren't much stronger than Toa, either; several Makuta are severely injured or killed by Toa, typically not through straightforward means, but the average Makuta definitely isn't leagues above the average Toa.

 

[Neutralino]

I know, but there was talk about it scaling more universally and I'm against that. Makuta certainly aren't much stronger than Toa, either; several Makuta are severely injured or killed by Toa, typically not through straightforward means, but the average Makuta definitely isn't leagues above the average Toa.

Teridax is explicitly stated to have strength surpassing that of a toa in the encyclopedia and said to be "10 times" stronger than Mana crabs that toa are unable to defeat individually. Brutaka defeated 6 of the strongest toa in a single blow, and Teridax in an inferior Maxilos body fought against him much more evenly. While I can't verify the source at the moment, BSO1 says Axonn's strength approaches that of a Makuta, the same Axonn who can match or surpass Brutaka in strength.

In terms of durability, anything made out of protosteel must be more durable than anything that is not. Makuta armour is made from several layers of protsteel while toa armour typically is not.

 

[Promestein]

Teridax and Brutaka have way better feats and scaling than any random Makuta do. I wasn't talking about them, I was talking about the other, less powerful Makuta, whose feats are much less impressive. Yes, they're stronger and more durable than Toa, but it's not as significant as the jumps we see with Teridax.

Where's the quote about Teridax being 10 times stronger than Manas? That's a fun bit of extra 6-C justification, given that Manas are 7-A.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, Teridax and Brutaka are consistently placed on higher pedestals than common Makuta

 

[Promestein]

Yeah, Teridax easily defeats Icarax after Icarax has time to prepare and gang up on him with an army of Manas, and Icarax himself is explicitly stronger and more dangerous than the other Makuta.

 

[Promestein]

Also, I was checking things up because I did feel some sudden trepidation over our 6-C Nova Blast being based purely on WoG (WoG that I can't find exactly, not speaking in explicit terms of being able to destroy Metru Nui, just cover it), but Karzahni is about the size of Metru Nui and was destroyed by a Nova Blast so 6-C makes sense and should stay. I might change the justifications a bit at some point to reflect that it's not just WoG and is substantiated by canon materials.

 

[Neutralino]

I suppose there's a bit of a contradiction between all Makuta having the same level 6 Kraata powers and their actual combat performance. Miserix absorbed several Makuta. Icarax was unable to defeat Teridax despite being allowed to "pound" him for several hours (invulnerability Kraata power?). Teridax defeated and overthrew Miserix. There's a WoG saying that a fight between different Makuta using the same powers is based on willpower, which could help explain some of this. They're all wearing the same protosteel armour, so in terms of durability, one wouldn't expect them to vary too much...

The Manas statement is from Promestein's own feats thread (excellent work on it, by the way).

Bionicle Explanation Page

BIONICLE was a line of Lego construction toys and their accompanied science fantasy universe, set in the Matoran Universe - in truth, the interior of a massive robot, the Great Spirit Robot, created by the alien race known only as the Great Beings with the intent of using it to repair the broken...

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I had a look at the map of the Matoran universe and found an unfortunate discovery. Apparently, WoG says that the landmasses on the Matoran Universe map are not necessarily drawn to scale, which means that Karzahni island isn't necessarily the size of Metru Nui.

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[Promestein]

Sad days. Makes things hard to scale then.

The Manas statement is from the Online Game, which is semi-canon, but that statement is probably fine.

 

[Lonkitt]

I would say the Online Game statements are fine

Not sure what we’ll do regarding the island stuff. I’m sure there’s other moments we can use to scale the sizes, but as of right now, we can only work with the art

 

[Lonkitt]

Also, why don't we have a key for the Nuva's Adaptive Armour? The armour and weapons are made of specialized Protosteel. Pohatu damaged Antroz [page 13]. Kopaka damaged Chirox [page 17]. Onua was capable of restraining Bitil, as well as using his elemental powers to defeat several copies of him [page 34-36]. Tahu could block a blast from Krika with his shield. Tahu's elemental abilities were powerful enough soften Gorast's armour and the former even implies her could met her entirely (also worth noting he restrained her while doing this). Tahu's shields could shield off attacks from Krika, Gorast, and Bitil (he does mention that he can't keep it up forever, but given how many Makuta are attacking at once, this is fair) [page 39]

Also wanted to touch on Takanuva. For Enlarged Takanuva, its mentioned that "even the Makuta know fear at his name", implying he's already stronger than the Toa Nuva prior to his return [page 39].

 

[Promestein]

could make a new key for it, but my thought was that the Adaptive Armor doesn't exactly boost your elemental powers, does it?

 

[Lonkitt]

Based on the feats, I had the impression it boosted overall power. Plus, it did grant them the weapons that they did use their elements through

 

[Promestein]

Fair enough. These are definitely where most of the Toa vs Makuta feats come from.

 

[Lonkitt]

In terms of other Toa feats I can think of:

• Mahri Jaller physically harms, severely burns, and knocks Mantax unconscious
• Mahri Hahli defeats Mantax

Might be more, but I'd have to look

 

[Promestein]

Barraki scaling is weird

 

[Lonkitt]

It is TBH

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I might make profiles on the reboot Bionicle if I have the time. Heresy I know.

 

[Neutralino]

Weren't the Karda Nui Makuta weakened by their mutations? They certainly lost access to many of their Kraata powers, and I can't see their protosteel armour benefiting from the mutagen, either.

 

[Promestein]

I might make profiles on the reboot Bionicle if I have the time. Heresy I know.

I was planning to but never got around to it.

Weren't the Karda Nui Makuta weakened by their mutations? They certainly lost access to many of their Kraata powers, and I can't see their protosteel armour benefiting from the mutagen, either.

They weren't all mutated.

 

[Neutralino]

Pohatu damaged Antroz [page 13]. Kopaka damaged Chirox [page 17]

Those are feats for their Midak Skyblasters, which fire light spheres that are specifically Makutas' weakness. All Makuta have this same weakness, mutated or not.

 

[Lonkitt]

Those are feats for their Midak Skyblasters, which fire light spheres that are specifically Makutas' weakness. All Makuta have this same weakness, mutated or not.

That's fair, but do you think the other feats I provided are evidence that the AA Toa Nuva should scale to 7-A (going by our current ratings)?

 

[Lonkitt]

In terms of other Toa feats I can think of:

• Mahri Jaller physically harms, severely burns, and knocks Mantax unconscious
• Mahri Hahli defeats Mantax

Might be more, but I'd have to look

Also touching back on this, I'd like to add that if we scale these specific Toa to the Barraki, I'm not suggesting it would apply to them as the Inika. Only the Mahri, since their mutations could reasonable explain this change in power. So an Inika key would place them at their current Toa rating while a Mahri key would scale to Barraki level opponents

I think the Mahri have a decent enough foundation to scale to them, given the instances I provided approach, as well as having fought them at other intervals. I'd also like to bring up that Kalmah believed they were capable of killing Pridak, though mileage may vary on how supportive that is

 

[Promestein]

It's a big power jump, though.