Ben Tennyson vs Ikki Kurogane: Part 2 Electric Boogaloo

[Firephoenixearl]

Ben views how he would die as a human similar to when he faced the Annihilaargh, this may or may not include fate trying to erase the Omnitrix which will fail because it resists 2-B EE. This type of death is nothing the Omnitrix can’t handle.

Which means option 1 is Ikki winning cus Ben will not act cus he sees himself die.

He views how he would die the ways he died before: soul getting ripped out and a multiversal time bomb going off. The former gets countered by the new Omnitrix’s failsafe which is better than the Ultimatrix’s other failsafes. This would mean he gets turned into Ghostfreak who lacks life-force, which is equivalent to having no soul in Ben 10

No, if he knows certain things won't kill him he won't imagine those as his death.

Also how the **** does a ghost not have a soul? A ghost is a soul.

In the latter scenario the time bomb would kill Ikki as well.

Oh nah, causality would just kill Ben.

He views how Alien X (his strongest alien) would die

Nope, he would view how he himself would die, not specific aliens. How he imagines true death would be how he dies.

Keep in mind this is just for the passive, if he somehow can get past this, Ikki just fate haxes and destroys all the possible futures where he (ikki) loses ending the match.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And I also disagree with that, actually. And have been known to contest it from time to time. In fact, I don't even use game stuff when I argue specifically about the manga stuff. Funny enough, Earl can attest to that. ovo

 

[Greenshifter]

Also is planetary resistance to mind and empathic hax not enough to counter the effects of Ikki’s aura?

. I mean someone brought up empatic resistance for Bayo right?

 

[Greenshifter]

No, if he knows certain things won't kill him he won't imagine those as his death.

He doesn’t know the time bomb won’t kill him without Ben 10000’s interference.

Also how the **** does a ghost not have a soul? A ghost is a soul.

Charmcaster used souls and life-force as synonyms. Why MoA didn’t think about this impacting Ghostfreak idk but it is the way it is.

 

[Greenshifter]

Nope, he would view how he himself would die, not specific aliens. How he imagines true death would be how he dies.

I mean this could be if he assumes the Omnitrix will failsafe him into Alien X in the worst case scenario.

Does Ikki destroy all or some possible futures?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Funny enough, Earl can attest to that. ovo

I can?

. I mean someone brought up empatic resistance for Bayo right?

They did, doesn't mean it served any purpose. It's not empathic manip.

He doesn’t know the time bomb won’t kill him without Ben 10000’s interference.

Fair, he is just too scared to move then.

Why MoA didn’t think about this impacting Ghostfreak idk but it is the way it is.

Maybe cus it is a soul so its "soul" is actually its true body. But it's pretty weird for a ghost not to be a soul.

Does Ikki destroy all or some possible futures?

All.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Earl

Red vs Ikki. I didn't use a single thing outside the manga to argue for him.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I don't remember that match tbh. I have the memory of a 106 year old dude. Engineering is really taking its toll on me.

 

[Greenshifter]

You’re an engineering student too? Cool

They did, doesn't mean it served any purpose. It's not empathic manip.

Then what is it?

Fair, he is just too scared to move then

I think I have to add Alien X for Ben to get to this point. You good with that?

Maybe cus it is a soul so its "soul" is actually its true body. But it's pretty weird for a ghost not to be a soul.

Yeah but the problem is that we see how a soul looks in Ben 10 (pink or yellow) and it’s not like Ghostfreak at all. Granted it doesn’t really matter for my reasoning since the new Omnitrix can still counter a soulrip by transforming Ben into GF since you can’t really rip a soul out of a soul.

Oh and there’s also the option that Ben’s first thing that he thinks about when it comes to being dead is being Ghostfreak since that is where the most amount of his experience comes from when it comes to “being dead”. So fate might just force him to transform into Ghostfreak (which was my initial idea when making this match back when I assumed this was just regular death hax).

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You’re an engineering student too? Cool

There's nothing cool about that bruh. You're in a class with 99% dudes, no one has any idea what they're doing in lessons and the teachers are whack.

Then what is it?

It just shows you your death. It doesn't force you to be scared, but who in their right mind would fight a match they know they'll die in.

I think I have to add Alien X for Ben to get to this point. You good with that?

I wouldn't mind, but that still doesn't stop him from getting fate haxed.

Oh and there’s also the option that Ben’s first thing that he thinks about when it comes to being dead is being Ghostfreak since that is where the most amount of his experience comes from when it comes to “being dead”

Thing is, that's like saying, he doesn't think anything can kill him (he can never lose a match) when he's in Ghostfreak. Being technically dead doesn't really stop you from people putting an end to your fate (since that's what desperado hax do).

 

[Greenshifter]

There's nothing cool about that bruh. You're in a class with 99% dudes, no one has any idea what they're doing in lessons and the teachers are whack.

I am an engineering student. Hence still cool cause we do the same thing and you don’t see that often.

It just shows you your death.

That’s still forcibly manipulating Ben’s mind to see those images. Granted it’s done by causality manipulation right, which I assume the Omnitrix can’t counter?

I wouldn't mind, but that still doesn't stop him from getting fate haxed.

Do you consider type 4 acausality to be superior or just different from type 2?

Thing is, that's like saying, he doesn't think anything can kill him (he can never lose a match) when he's in Ghostfreak. Being technically dead doesn't really stop you from people putting an end to your fate (since that's what desperado hax do).

Hmm I guess that’s fair.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That’s still forcibly manipulating Ben’s mind to see those images. Granted it’s done by causality manipulation right, which I assume the Omnitrix can’t counter?

It's Alternate Future Display.

Do you consider type 4 acausality to be superior or just different from type 2?

Depends. Most of the time it's just different although one could argue differently easily.

 

[Greenshifter]

It's Alternate Future Display


Depends. Most of the time it's just different although one could argue differently easily.

I don’t either of them would work on Alien X then since he exist outside of space and time and has type 2. Granted Ben doesn’t start as AX

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh, AlienX is actually 2-B. It won't work on him then.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ah... why exactly is AP relevant?

So basically Alien X vs Bloodlusted Ikki: Alien X wins, probably stomps.

Ben vs bloodlusted Ikki: Has a chance at winning if lives are on the line, because then it’s hero time. And you argue that Ben would see the time bomb death before him but this time the Omnitrix failsafes him into Alien X due to Ben 10000 not being present. If one of these conditions is not fulfilled then he gets rekt.

Ben (with and without Alien X) vs non-bloodlusted Ikki: We can probably figure that out real quick.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ah... why exactly is AP relevant?

I mean...this isn't raw AP, the dude is straight up 4D.

Ben vs bloodlusted Ikki: Has a chance at winning if lives are on the line, because then it’s hero time. And you argue that Ben would see the time bomb death before him but this time the Omnitrix failsafes him into Alien X due to Ben 10000 not being present. If one of these conditions is not fulfilled then he gets rekt.

Why would it? Nothing is happening to ben right now. He's just too scared to fight.

Ben (with and without Alien X) vs non-bloodlusted Ikki: We can probably figure that out real quick.

I mean, the fight goes on for a bit then Ikki gets annoyed and destroys all his possible futures.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don't remember that match tbh. I have the memory of a 106 year old dude. Engineering is really taking its toll on me.

Psychologist here,
Pretty nice (send help,pls)

 

[Greenshifter]

I mean...this isn't raw AP, the dude is straight up 4D.

He isn’t unless what I just said is enough proof for 4D, in which case tell me more.

With lives are on the line I mean that someone is in danger and Ben has to fight to save them. Thus making his actions no longer useless.

I mean, the fight goes on for a bit then Ikki gets annoyed and destroys all his possible futures

Assuming he doesn’t get haxed before that or Ben turns into Alien X which granted is quite OoC unless Ikki somehow failsafes him into it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He isn’t unless what I just said is enough proof for 4D, in which case tell me more.

He's 2B no?

With lives are on the line I mean that someone is in danger and Ben has to fight to save them. Thus making his actions no longer useless.

Whose life will be in danger?

Assuming he doesn’t get haxed before that or Ben turns into Alien X which granted is quite OoC unless Ikki somehow failsafes him into it.

It's not OOC for ikki to desperado hax and against some of the aliens it's his only choice.

 

[Everything12]

Alien X doesn't have Higher-Dimensional Existence. So he is like Goku, 4-D power, 3-D Body.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

oh

 

[Greenshifter]

Whose life will be in danger?

I was thinking more of a tournament setting where the loser’s universe gets erased. But that’d only be theoretical to make the fight fair.

It's not OOC for ikki to desperado hax and against some of the aliens it's his only choice.

Fair, what does he lead with in a non-bloodlusted scenario tho?

 

[Greenshifter]

Alien X might not be 4D but I still don’t think AFD and fate hax will work due to existing outside of space and time and acausality type 2, which Earl said is different from type 4.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

acausality type 2

How does it work?

Fair, what does he lead with in a non-bloodlusted scenario tho?

Skill, 1 shotting with ice techniques, turning into mist to get around anything thrown his way. But he wouldn't refuse to open up with desperado or amps if he deems it necessary.

 

[Greenshifter]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/629102062633746442/789454134180184084/image0.jpg

That’s all I have for type 2.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What the hell does that even mean? That doesn't seem to be acausality to begin with. If anything that is a weird type of transduality, however i will need the scan.

 

[Greenshifter]

That literally is the scan. It’s WoG. It got accepted that way and I got nothing to do with it lol. I think the reasoning is that Ben 10000 (Ben’s future version) and Ben use the same Alien X thus he only exists in their respective presents since he can only help one of them at the same time.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That got accepted.....my god what is wrong with some verses?

But that is an ungodly amount of stupid. From what im getting Ben 10000 is future Ben, which means that Alien X can only be used by only 1 version of Ben regardless of what moment in time they live in. That however would mean that all the Bens would have Acausality type 1 and at the same time that the odds of being capable of using Alien X would be close to 0 cus you would only be able to summon him if no version of you, no matter how far in the past or future, is using it.

So ugh....you see where i am going here? There are infinite points in time and therefore infinite versions of Ben, all asking to use the same Alien X and he would only be able to go to 1 of them.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

That got accepted.....my god what is wrong with some verses?

But that is an ungodly amount of stupid. From what im getting Ben 10000 is future Ben, which means that Alien X can only be used by only 1 version of Ben regardless of what moment in time they live in. That however would mean that all the Bens would have Acausality type 1 and at the same time that the odds of being capable of using Alien X would be close to 0 cus you would only be able to summon him if no version of you, no matter how far in the past or future, is using it.

So ugh....you see where i am going here? There are infinite points in time and therefore infinite versions of Ben, all asking to use the same Alien X and he would only be able to go to 1 of them.

What you said now literally proves that Alien x has Acausality type 2

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok, but as i said, that would mean that Ben would have an almost 0 chance of using Alien X, cus there would always be 1 version of him using it. And finding a gap in there makes the odds practically non existent.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Ok, but as i said, that would mean that Ben would have an almost 0 chance of using Alien X, cus there would always be 1 version of him using it. And finding a gap in there makes the odds practically non existent.

Wtf are you even talking about? There are only 2 versions of Ben that can use Alien x (Ben Tennyson and Ben 10K)

cus there would always be 1 version of him using it.

As long as they need him then yes, which is irrelevant to this battle anyway

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

What you said now literally proves that Alien x has Acausality type 2

That still doesnt mean he doesnt exist in the past/future of a specific timeline

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Wtf are you even talking about? There are only 2 versions of Ben that can use Alien x (Ben Tennyson and Ben 10K)

How are there no other versions in between though? What about Ben 1 hour from now? Ben 10 hours from now, Ben 5 years from now? What about all of them? How are they not versions of Ben?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

How are there no other versions in between though? What about Ben 1 hour from now? Ben 10 hours from now, Ben 5 years from now? What about all of them? How are they not versions of Ben?

 

[Greenshifter]

That got accepted.....my god what is wrong with some verses?

But that is an ungodly amount of stupid. From what im getting Ben 10000 is future Ben, which means that Alien X can only be used by only 1 version of Ben regardless of what moment in time they live in. That however would mean that all the Bens would have Acausality type 1 and at the same time that the odds of being capable of using Alien X would be close to 0 cus you would only be able to summon him if no version of you, no matter how far in the past or future, is using it.

So ugh....you see where i am going here? There are infinite points in time and therefore infinite versions of Ben, all asking to use the same Alien X and he would only be able to go to 1 of them.

Tbf nobody cared about Ben 10 at the point that it got accepted.

I interpreted it more as when they are in the same moment of time only one can use them rather than a time travelled version of Alien X being used. Which should be proof of acausality type 2 since there exists only one of you in the present, of in this case there is only one connection from the present to the pocket dimension.

But yeah I did get that mindfuck you just described when I first thought about it so welcome to my world.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok but that just makes no sense then. We need a lot more context than a tweet for that.

But on another note if a dude manipulates a system of causality that transcends the usual one, alien x would still be in the future of that other system.

 

[Greenshifter]

Hmm maybe... could be what Paradox did to him when he detransformed him. On the other hand Ben still seemed to remember what happened which probably shouldn’t happen if you got causality ripped (or OP time reverse) out of the transformation.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hmm maybe... could be what Paradox did to him when he detransformed him.

What?

 

[Greenshifter]

Paradox went inside Alien X’s pocket dimension and literally ripped Ben out of the transformation. This could have been done via causality hax or OP time hax since something like that shouldn’t work for something that exists outside of space-time. In other words Paradox manipulated a system of causality (or time) above the usual one.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Maybe power null?