Ben Tennyson vs Ikki Kurogane: Part 2 Electric Boogaloo

[Greenshifter]

Fused Ikki is used

Omniverse Ben starts as Diamondhead and has access to all aliens

Ikki is bloodlusted, Ben is in-character

Ikki’s speed is equalized with Diamondhead, Omnitrix keeps it’s comparative speed advantage

Ben has Master Control and the Omnitrix' failsafe is active

SBA for everything else

I’m gonna claim some stuff that isn’t accepted yet so this is a theoretical debate and hence Fun and Games.

Ikki Kurogane:

Ben Tennyson (Original):

Inconclusive:

My apologies if this is a stomp (again)

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Mmmmm Follow

 

[Greenshifter]

Also Earl is already aware that I was gonna do this. A bit busy for the moment so a little patience if I don’t respond immediately.

Oh and forgot to make Ikki bloodlusted to make it interesting .

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Why is this fun and games tho? I think Ben vs Ikki can be fair.

 

[00potato]

He wants to use arguments not yet ready for a CRT, so he put it here.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah exactly + I wanted to avoid the same stuff that happened in yesterday’s Ikki thread... + this could be a stomp, question is figuring out who stomps.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Wait, what....ikki bloodlusted.

Why?

Also add tags.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Wait, what....ikki bloodlusted.

Why?

because yes

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No for real. What you did is put a mix of Edelweiss and shizuku with the mentality and skill of the most skilled dude on the wiki.

....What is wrong with you?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Ikki bloodlusted and Ben in character

........ Why?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

And to top it all off, against a dude with no resistance to fate hax.

In character ikki Is pretty ridiculous. But bloodlusted ikki is a whole different beast.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I mean, What stop alien X GG(aka acausal type 2)?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Alien X is banned for some reason.

And that still wouldn't stop ikki.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Ngl, I’m going to be honest here, Ben never uses Alien X In-character. And I honestly don’t think the Failsafe can do much to transform him. We see it for One episode, it doesn’t even change Ben’s alien in its debut, it only turns up in the last episode, and Ben’s literally died/come extremely close to death before and nothing happened.
If Ikki’s still got Fatehax, this probably ends up with Ben being dead. Especially Bloodlusted, since that typically doesn’t end well.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Ngl, I’m going to be honest here, Ben never uses Alien X In-character. And I honestly don’t think the Failsafe can do much to transform him. We see it for One episode, it doesn’t even change Ben’s alien in its debut, it only turns up in the last episode, and Ben’s literally died/come extremely close to death before and nothing happened.

The Faile safe didn't save him in those moments because Master control wasn't enabled. End.

Also the Faile safe worked since the OG series anyway

 

[Daddybrawl]

The only time the Failsafe is mentioned and shown is during the end of Omniverse though???? He didn’t have the Master Control then???? It didn’t exist during the OS????

 

[Gohanblanco217]

The only time the Failsafe is mentioned and shown is during the end of Omniverse though???? He didn’t have the Master Control then???? It didn’t exist during the OS????

It did exist but it wasn't always enabled IIRC, also like I said the faile safe is something that worked since the OG series (it was literally demonstrated when vilgax tried to cut Ben's arm and the Omnitrix saved him )

 

[Daddybrawl]

When did the Failsafe ever activate during the OS? I don’t recall a single time it’s even mentioned. You mean Self-Destruct mode?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

When did the Failsafe ever activate during the OS? I don’t recall a single time it’s even mentioned. You mean Self-Destruct mode?

It was demonstrated in OS when Vilgax tried to cut Ben's arm but the Omnitrix saved him

 

[Daddybrawl]

That’s not the Failsafe being talked about- that’s just how the Omnitrix works ig. I’m talking about the whole ‘Oh it can detect threats and change into the right alien for any moment’ Failsafe, the one that supposedly does exactly what I mentioned.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

That’s not the Failsafe being talked about- that’s just how the Omnitrix works ig. I’m talking about the whole ‘Oh it can detect threats and change into the right alien for any moment’ Failsafe, the one that supposedly does exactly what I mentioned.

OH well this Faile safe exist only in OV, it happend in the last episode only because Ben was in a near death situation with 0% chance of escaping and Master control was also enabled , the other moments where the faile safe didn't work is either master control was disabled or Ben wasn't in a situation where the faile safe was needed

 

[Sir_Ovens]

OS did exactly that? When Vilgax tried to cut Ben's arm, the Omnitrix cycled through aliens until he could rip his arm out of the machine. The exact same sequence of events happened when Ben tried to stop the explosion in Omniverse.

 

[Daddybrawl]

OS did exactly that? When Vilgax tried to cut Ben's arm, the Omnitrix cycled through aliens until he could rip his arm out of the machine. The exact same sequence of events happened when Ben tried to stop the explosion in Omniverse.

I don’t recall this scenario. If you’re talking about the scenario where Ben‘s Omnitrix glitched during the Power Surge on Vilgax’s ship, well, I just explained that situation in this very sentence. I believe he began cycling through aliens uncontrollably, even going as far as to once accidentally become Grey Matter and be forced to short circuit a drone.

OH well this Faile safe exist only in OV, it happend in the last episode only because Ben was in a near death situation with 0% chance of escaping and Master control was also enabled , the other moments where the faile safe didn't work is either master control was disabled or Ben wasn't in a situation where the faile safe was needed

Where does it say the Failsafe needs Master Control to be active? Ben just says ‘I knew the Omnitrix had a Failsafe to protect me’. Ben literally dies during AF/UA (gets Thanos’d by Eon) and tons of Ben’s, at least 1 having the Master Control iirc, got Yeeted by the Timebomb, once again no Failsafe triggering.

 

[Greenshifter]

When he fought Eon he did the opposite of dying (the result of a different failsafe). The alien got turned to dust and Ben lived, same thing when Chromastone got vaporized in Ledgerdomain, only this time he kept the alien in his playlist.

The time bomb is already explained a million times but to re-iterate. Atomic-X got wiped out, thus Alien X’s DNA got wiped out thus due to being a multiversal singularity (only one version of Alien X’s DNA exists in the multiverse). Everyone that died before him has no proof of having THE failsafe and Ben 10000’s Biomnitrix is just made to have fun again so it also doesn’t have proof of having THE failsafe.

Ben gettin his soul ripped out isn’t an anti-feat either since burden of proof is on you to proof that the Ultimatrix had THE failsafe. It could be that another one of the ultimatrix’s failsafes could have resurrected Ben but I don’t think this is relevant for the fight and if it is then it can be discussed later.

I don’t think we’ve seen THE failsafe in the OS and it was probably just the Omnitrix being glitchy due to Vilgax’s interference that caused the switching.

Close to death scenarios don’t count since the Omnitrix has the reaction speed necessary to know at which point Ben can’t react himself anymore and in every near-death scenario someone else or Ben acts in time to stop the threat.

Master Control is irrelevant for the failsafe to work.

Lastly none of this matters since this is Fun and Games and I put failsafe is enable in the OP which means it works even if you were right that it’s inconsistent.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No for real. What you did is put a mix of Edelweiss and shizuku with the mentality and skill of the most skilled dude on the wiki.

....What is wrong with you?

 

[Greenshifter]

No for real. What you did is put a mix of Edelweiss and shizuku with the mentality and skill of the most skilled dude on the wiki.

....What is wrong with you?

A lot, but it doesn’t have to do with this fight (where can I find strikethrough again?)

 

[Greenshifter]

Anyways 2-3 questions: What’s the potency of Ikki’s fate hax? Can he kill someone that didn’t die by the Big Bang which is literally everything?

Will the fate hax take the easiest way to kill him? (The fatehax is only death-related right?)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What’s the potency of Ikki’s fate hax?

Pretty freaking powerful.

Can he kill someone that didn’t die by the Big Bang which is literally everything?

That's just dura, it's irrelevant.

Will the fate hax take the easiest way to kill him?

It will make his own image of death materialize. That's assuming Ben will even be able to move in ikki's presence.

 

[Greenshifter]

That's just dura, it's irrelevant.

The Omnitrix transformed him into Feedback who absorbed it. My point was that the Omnitrix can react to pretty much any version of death.

It will make his own image of death materialize. That's assuming Ben will even be able to move in ikki's presence.

That’s interesting... Ben thought he would die by the Big Bang yet it didn’t happen. I guess Ben’s image of death is the same as a regular human’s which the failsafe would counter since it’s only biological death and Goop’s been atomized before? You could maybe argue that the Omnitrix gets destroyed or falls off in Ben’s head when he thinks about dying, but I don’t think he considers that much of an option, I mean the thing survived the Chronosapien time bomb and Ben’s aware of it.

 

[Greenshifter]

In order for Ben to move he needs to resist being fully convinced that he’ll die right?

 

[Greenshifter]

If what I said above is the case then Ben has been fully willing to kill himself in order to set the sentient ultimate aliens free who had just been created by the Ultimatrix because of an error. He also jumped headfirst after the Annihilaargh knowing it could go boom anytime and create the Big Bang and he was convinced he was gonna die when he saw it coming towards him. He also protected his alternate timeline self when the chronosapien time bomb went off instead of trying to run. So yeah when Ben’s convinced he’s gonna die but it’s hero time, then bring it.

If it’s just empathic manipulation then the Omnitrix counters that on a planetary level and Ben’s own willpower should be able to counter mindhax in the trillions.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The Omnitrix transformed him into Feedback who absorbed it. My point was that the Omnitrix can react to pretty much any version of death.

Depends, what Ben would imagine as death would be sth none of his aliens can do anything about.

I guess Ben’s image of death is the same as a regular human’s which the failsafe would counter since it’s only biological death and Goop’s been atomized before? You could maybe argue that the Omnitrix gets destroyed or falls off in Ben’s head when he thinks about dying, but I don’t think he considers that much of an option, I mean the thing survived the Chronosapien time bomb and Ben’s aware of it.

The thing is, he would be fated to die that way. Actions are irrelevant when you can pretty much be turned to absolute mush by causality. I don't think the omnitrix has anything to stop being cut to a million pieces by causality or maybe whatever Ben would imagine. Not to mention i doubt the Omnitrix would be able to act against fate.

But again that's assuming Ben would pick up a fight he knows he'll die in.

If what I said above is the case then Ben has been fully willing to kill himself in order to set the sentient ultimate aliens free who had just been created by the Ultimatrix because of an error.

There was something to gain there. There would be nothing to gain from killing himself here.

He also jumped headfirst after the Annihilaargh knowing it could go boom anytime and create the Big Bang and he was convinced he was gonna die when he saw it coming towards him.

Again, he was doing it to save people, there is no one to save here. And it "could" go boom, not "it will go boom". Chance is different from certainty.

He also protected his alternate timeline self when the chronosapien time bomb went off instead of trying to run.

Again, just altruism, trying to save people instead of his own. He just values other people's lives more than his own. There is no one to save here. You can either choose to die for no reason, or you can choose to stay still or run away and you'll be fine.

 

[Greenshifter]

Depends, what Ben would imagine as death would be sth none of his aliens can do anything about.

Ben doesn’t even know all of his aliens tho. He has a million unexplored ones and he believes Alien X to be omnipotent so if you go that route you might as well argue Ben believes himself to be unkillable. (Ben doesn’t know he doesn’t have Alien X here)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ben doesn’t even know all of his aliens tho. He has a million unexplored ones and he believes Alien X to be omnipotent so if you go that route you might as well argue Ben believes himself to be unkillable. (Ben doesn’t know he doesn’t have Alien X here)

You'd need a bit more than that to argue that he lacks an image of death though.

 

[Greenshifter]

Well I see 3 options: 1) Ben views how he would die as a human similar to when he faced the Annihilaargh, this may or may not include fate trying to erase the Omnitrix which will fail because it resists 2-B EE. This type of death is nothing the Omnitrix can’t handle.

2) He views how he would die the ways he died before: soul getting ripped out and a multiversal time bomb going off. The former gets countered by the new Omnitrix’s failsafe which is better than the Ultimatrix’s other failsafes. This would mean he gets turned into Ghostfreak who lacks life-force, which is equivalent to having no soul in Ben 10 and he is dead on top of that (immortality type 7 based on Vilgax Attacks the video game) fulfilling the fate hax. In the latter scenario the time bomb would kill Ikki as well. In fact Ben might not be aware of the reason he didn’t failsafe into Alien X was because of Atomic-X dying and since I have arguments that Alien X can survive 2-B EE, Ikki would be the only one who dies here... along with the rest of the multiverse. Unless you’re arguing the fate hax will also pull Ben 10000 from the future.

3) He views how Alien X (his strongest alien) would die who he believes can solve any situation with a snap so it’s realistic that nothing comes to his mind here. Granted Ben did say that Alien X would die to Bellicus and Serena by getting blasted with “unfiltered null void energy” in Vilgax Attacks but that’s secondary canon and could have been contradicted already.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Did you just use a point from a game, then immediately disregarded said game because it contradicted another thing?

 

[Greenshifter]

Also is planetary resistance to mind and empathic hax not enough to counter the effects of Ikki’s aura?

 

[Greenshifter]

Did you just use a point from a game, then immediately disregarded said game because it contradicted another thing?

Yeah because the game is accepted as canon (see Way Big’s page which uses a sequal of said game for it’s AP rating) so we only take stuff that is uncontradicted (immortality type 7) to expand on the primary canon. Since that’s how secondary canon works. I only put into question that specific cutscene rather than the game in it’s entirety in other words.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'm not gonna go how much I disagree with that because I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough about Ben 10 to contest it, but alright.

 

[Greenshifter]

I mean this is a general thing. In Pokémon the manga can also contradict the main games yet we don’t discard the entire manga. We just use the stuff that doesn’t contradict but rather supplements the games.

If you’re talking about the game being canon as a whole then Paradox mentioned events that happened in the game in canon. (I have some issues with scaling it to other versions of the game and it’s sequel as well but my opinion essentially got rejected on the matter so I’ll stick with what’s on the page when it comes to canon for now)