Ben 10 Speed Revision

[Greenshifter]

Radiation lesson:

Now there are different types of radiation and while normally I'd do a talk about alpha, beta and gamma radiation and how gamma radiation moves at the speed of light and that P'andor's beams travel hundreds of meters when fighting Jetray with the only one of the 3 radiation types having that range being gamma. Supported by him being intangible and gamma being the only type of radiation that passes through objects like that. However there's a fourth option: neutron radiation.

A fast neutron is a free neutron with a kinetic energy level close to 1 MeV (1.6×10−13 J), hence a speed of ~14000 km/s (~ 5% of the speed of light). They are named fission energy or fast neutrons to distinguish them from lower-energy thermal neutrons, and high-energy neutrons produced in cosmic showers or accelerators. Fast neutrons are produced by nuclear processes such as nuclear fission. (not all neutrons created by nuclear fission are fast neutrons btw, but Kevin obviously needs to dogde the fastest ones).

Since P'andor is described as a living nuclear reactor and carbon rods actually affect him and diminish his size, I'd say that P'andor is mostly made of neutrons and since I have no idea what the range of fast neutrons are before they decay and them being quite penetrative it should also fit with the requirements I set up above. Thus NRG's radiation is indeed not lightspeed (but a good supporting feat for relativistic), unless Dargoo or someone else scientifically inclined can debunk that (in case I got the properties of neutron radiation wrong).

 

[Greenshifter]

Idk what you mean by this but this point is going nowhere.

My point is that you'd have to put a hard cap on the speed of elemental attack users if their attacks are realistic, which we currently don't do, ex. Cloud from Final Fantasy or just all of Pokémon basically.

I seriously have to repeat myself? Hyperspace.

This actually works against you, since MoA found a way to let flight speed not scale to reaction speed via Hyperspace (without risking flying into things) but everytime someone doesn't enter Hyperspace their reactions would scale to their flight speed, that's their way of making the distinction you brought up earlier with the Marvel WoG. And currently there's only a single alien shown being capable of going into Hyperspace.

Jetray took 3 minutes and 55 seconds to cross half the galaxy.

Where did he go to specifically? (also cinematic timing can still be in effect, in the Petropia episode we have a reason to assume stuff happens in real time and even then we might have been a little off)

An even bigger inconsistency is Aggregor flying so far outside the universe to the point it looks like a star in the distance.

The full map allows one to travel anywhere in space-time and there's no proof he didn't just portal there or whatever, heck his minions seemed to have gotten in the chrono randomization barrier somehow. Also you mentioning absurdly high end feats doesn't help your case since you're making the case that the characters are consistently relativistic. I didn't bring up several infinite speed feats for the characters out of courtesy but now you're essentially doing it yourself.

As such, we have generally assumed that the characters' regular reaction or combat speeds are roughly equivalent to their flight speeds unless this is clearly contradicted.

Sure, I don't need assumptions though. I gave you several instances of characters reacting to their flight speed. The rest is just "Ben 10 is inconsistent" and pulling stuff from a single episode. If the tachyon cannon were to get accepted then your entire argument falls apart, which the staff also leave room for.

None of the feats in OS even come close to MFTL+ and all their reactions correlate, further showing the inconsistency.

Xylene's and Vilgax' ship shooting beams at each other could be MFTL+ right? I don't think there's much anti-feats in the OS either tbh, aside from Ghostfreak (who was technically affecting earth with his TK all the way from Primus)

there are too many inconsistencies for them to have MFTL+ reactions

I don't think there's an inconsistency within MFTL+ itself even with hyperspace and the rest is like at least 7/8 MFTL(+) + 2/1 FTL speed feats scaling to reactions vs 4 anti-feats that you brought up (with the Chromastone one being iffy due to what I said earlier regarding elemental attacks) and even then I'm doing you a solid by only proposing a possibly MFTL+ rating.

 

[DemonicDude]

Well, a Tachyon is an FTL particle, but what's the context details behind the Tachyon cannon. It's fine it it's descried as a cannon that fires pure tachyons, then FTL for that is fine. But otherwise, I mostly agree with Zamasu Chan here and think he makes sense.

If this is of any help

 

[Greenshifter]

I just watched the hyperspace episode. You may have a point that it took a while for Ben to get there since he started flying when the Rust Bucket was still under way (it even seemed to still be in the solar system but that would have probably made no sense). Thus we probably underestimated the time it took Vilgax to get to Petropia (and Aggregor's feat is an estimate as well so it being a little off is also possible), since Jetray was still faster than the Rust Bucket which would scale to the flight speeds of Vilgax and Aggregor (maybe a little slower idk). However I found something very interesting, Jetray exited Hyperspace literally a hundred meters above the ground and curved upwards immediately after. Which means he must have also seen the ground coming (somehow) to be able to exit it so close to the surface and he basically slowed down instantly from MFTL+ to stationary. I’m sorry but I haven’t come across a clearer reaction to one’s own MFTL+ flight speed in fiction.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

How would he see the ground before the hole in space even opens?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@DemonicDude I wouldn't use random Twitter comments, I meant like officially released databases and what not

 

[Greenshifter]

How would he see the ground before the hole in space even opens?

Maybe he has the map of where he is relative to the universe/regular space displayed in front of him via the Omnitrix? I'm kind of a dummy on how Hyperspace works in most fictions but in Jetray's case we can assume he slows down to his max regular MFTL+ speed when exiting hyperspace right? (or doesn't he need to fly as fast within hyperspace due to it being smaller than regular space or something? Cause he did seem to need to gain speed to access it.) In each case he'd need to have MFTL+ reactions for stopping literally a hundred meters from the ground while previously going MFTL+ speed.

 

[Greenshifter]

2 other potential feats are Feedback's species (Conductoids) easily traveling through a 60 light-year wide nebula (in diameter) and Servantis telling Kevin to send Helen ahead of his Plumber ship (in the Null Void) since she can cover more ground in Weapon XI part 2 at 2:35.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

2 other potential feats are Feedback's species (Conductoids) easily traveling through a 60 light-year wide nebula (in diameter)

Link is broken. Add ".png" to the link so we all could see the full image, I fixed it anyway. The statement literally says: "The Conductoids who inhabit this nebula travel easily throughout it, using minute voltage differences between to propel them." If Feedback needs to be launched, then I think it's very clear that he can’t naturally move at MFTL+ speeds.

and Servantis telling Kevin to send Helen ahead of his Plumber ship (in the Null Void) since she can cover more ground in Weapon XI part 2 at 2:35.

"Supersonic in atmosphere, subspace hyperdrive for effective FTL"

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise what we need to do here and the current conclusions please?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Can somebody summarise what we need to do here and the current conclusions please?

My proposal is to downgrade all the aliens to Retativistic due to inconsistencies of massively FTL+. So far 2 admins agree with me.

 

[Greenshifter]

My proposal is to put everyone at relativistic, possibly MFTL+ since there are more MFTL+ feats that scale to reactions than there are relativistic anti-feats and the inconsistencies within MFTL+ itself are practically non-existent if we use a safer lowball for our calcs. So far no staff has given their agree to downgrade Way Big from MFTL specifically since most of them talk about the OP, which is outdated since Way Big not scaling to the Conquest Ray was debunked.

 

[Greenshifter]

using minute voltage differences between to propel them.

Propel = fly here. I don’t see the problem with that? Fourth Form Malware reacted to Feedback propelling himself/flying towards him and it would have been beneficial for Feedback to propel himself as fast as possible so he could drain his energy on his body or something.

If Feedback needs tobe launched

It’s literally in space, he doesn’t have another option than to fly...?

"Supersonic in atmosphere, subspace hyperdrive for effective FTL"

Fair on Helen outpacing the Plumber ship not necessarily being MFTL+ then I guess. But the Rust Bucket has flown across the galaxy without hyperspace multiple times (so that statement is probably contradicted), including the episode where Jetray uses hyperspace, since you clearly see the stars pass by regularly outside the ship and it’s never shown to enter or exit hyperspace.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Propel = fly here. I don’t see the problem with that? Fourth Form Malware reacted to Feedback propelling himself/flying towards him and it would have been beneficial for Feedback to propel himself as fast as possible so he could drain his energy on his body or something.

The picture you showed me strictly says “using minute voltage differences”. That’s obviously not his natural flight.

It’s literally in space, he doesn’t have another option than to fly...?

When they’re surrounded by static discharge they could use that to their advantage. All you did was shoot yourself in the foot by showing me a scan of Feedback not being able to move through large distances in space with natural flight.

Fair on Helen outpacing the Plumber ship not necessarily being MFTL+ then I guess. But the Rust Bucket has flown across the galaxy without hyperspace multiple times (so that statement is probably contradicted), including the episode where Jetray uses hyperspace, since you clearly see the stars pass by regularly outside the ship and it’s never shown to enter or exit hyperspace.

Kevin did not say hyperspace. He said “subspace hyperdrive”. The RB3 has never gone through hyperspace. All it does is use a subspace hyperdrive to move FTL. Never did I say it uses hyperspace.

 

[Greenshifter]

The picture you showed me strictly says “using minute voltage differences”. That’s obviously not his natural flight.

There's a bigger voltage difference between himself and the ground when he uses his natural flight so he'd be able to go even faster with his natural flight.

When they’re surrounded by static discharge they could use that to their advantage. All you did was shoot yourself in the foot by showing me a scan of Feedback not being able to move through large distances in space with natural flight.

Or it's just easier to use the charges that are already there than to expend their own power to do so?

Kevin did not say hyperspace. He said “subspace hyperdrive”. The RB3 has never gone through hyperspace. All it does is use a subspace hyperdrive to move FTL. Never did I say it uses hyperspace.

Oh, what's your problem then (that really sounds like it would give access to hyperspace to me tho)? Why can't Kevin just use the subspace hyperdrive of the Plumber ship to search for Ben in the Null Void? The crew has relativistic reactions at the very least so the ship could go at MFTL(+) speeds and they would still be able to pilot it. (I'm obviously saying they don't cap at relativistic though since they'd scale back from Helen)

 

[Antvasima]

My proposal is to downgrade all the aliens to Retativistic due to inconsistencies of massively FTL+. So far 2 admins agree with me.

My proposal is to put everyone at relativistic, possibly MFTL+ since there are more MFTL+ feats that scale to reactions than there are relativistic anti-feats and the inconsistencies within MFTL+ itself are practically non-existent if we use a safer lowball for our calcs. So far no staff has given their agree to downgrade Way Big from MFTL specifically since most of them talk about the OP, which is outdated since Way Big not scaling to the Conquest Ray was debunked.

I am not sure which of your two solutions that is most reliable. I will call @Firestorm808 and @Andytrenom to help us out here though. Do you have any other suggestions for staff that I can contact?

 

[Greenshifter]

@LordGriffin1000 Potentially?

Firestorm said he’ll check out the thread later today.

I’ll also ask @DemonicDude to gather up all the feats for MFTL+ (and Zamasu can ask him for the relativistic anti-feats) so everyone knows what feats we’re talking about so we can come to a conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

@LordGriffin1000 would you be willing to help out here as well please?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

There's a bigger voltage difference between himself and the ground when he uses his natural flight so he'd be able to go even faster with his natural flight.

Or it's just easier to use the charges that are already there than to expend their own power to do so?

What are you saying dude? The context is as clear as day, they're not traveling with natural flight, otherwise the scan would've just stated they flew instead of going into detail. It verbatim says that they use the voltage to propel themselves not natural flight. If I get propelled by a giant slingshot, am I naturally flying? No, of course not. Please stop making ridiculous assumptions.

Oh, what's your problem then (that really sounds like it would give access to hyperspace to me tho)? Why can't Kevin just use the subspace hyperdrive of the Plumber ship to search for Ben in the Null Void? The crew has relativistic reactions at the very least so the ship could go at MFTL(+) speeds and they would still be able to pilot it. (I'm obviously saying they don't cap at relativistic though since they'd scale back from Helen)

You'd need to prove he's moving at that speed during that moment.

 

[Greenshifter]

What are you saying dude? The context is as clear as day, they're not traveling with natural flight, otherwise the scan would've just stated they flew instead of going into detail. It verbatim says that they use the voltage to propel themselves not natural flight. If I get propelled by a giant slingshot, am I naturally flying? No, of course not. Please stop making ridiculous assumptions.

You’re saying the equivalent of “they can get there using a bike, but not a car”. The scan detailed how they usually do it, not how they would do it if they wanted to go as fast possible.

You'd need to prove he's moving at that speed during that moment.

It was a direct comparison between Helen’s speed and the ship’s speed. It doesn’t matter what speed they were moving at at the time since “she can cover more ground” would have to hold true regardless of their speed at that moment.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

You’re saying the equivalent of “they can get there using a bike, but not a car”. The scan detailed how they usually do it, not how they would do it if they wanted to go as fast possible.

No I’m not, that’s a blatant straw man. You’re literally making the assumption that Feedback can fly through space just because he “should”. If Conductoids even need to be propelled then obviously he’s not MFTL+ regularly.

It was a direct comparison between Helen’s speed and the ship’s speed. It doesn’t matter what speed they were moving at at the time since “she can cover more ground” would have to hold true regardless of their speed at that moment.

Of course she can cover more ground, relativistic >> supersonic. I mean you’d need to prove they’re going FTL since they’re so close to a grounded area.

 

[Greenshifter]

No I’m not, that’s a blatant straw man. You’re literally making the assumption that Feedback can fly through space just because he “should”. If Conductoids even need to be propelled then obviously he’s not MFTL+ regularly

You forget that Conductoids need external energy sources to use their flight or else they run out of energy, so him using minute voltage differences to propel himself at MFTL+ speed is inferior to him using huge voltage differences to propel himself towards Malware. The downside to using these huge voltage differences is that he’d run out of power faster and thus it makes sense when Conductoids travel through space that they use the present charges instead of expending a big amount of their energy for a relatively small amount of time.

Of course she can cover more ground, relativistic >> supersonic. I mean you’d need to prove they’re going FTL since they’re so close to a grounded area.

Assuming you are right and they were moving at supersonic speeds, Servantis then states she can cover more ground than the crew with the ship (so she’s faster than supersonic at that point) and if the crew suddenly decided to use the hyperdrive to cover more ground than Helen does, then he’d be wrong, which I highly doubt given his intellect.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

You forget that Conductoids need external energy sources to use their flight or else they run out of energy, so him using minute voltage differences to propel himself at MFTL+ speed is inferior to him using huge voltage differences to propel himself towards Malware. The downside to using these huge voltage differences is that he’d run out of power faster and thus it makes sense when Conductoids travel through space that they use the present charges instead of expending a big amount of their energy for a relatively small amount of time.

Why are you assuming it’s inferior? It’s not like you’re seeing an onscreen feat. Feedback can naturally generate electricity to fly. If he needs outside help then he can’t do it naturally, it’s that simple.

Assuming you are right and they were moving at supersonic speeds, Servantis then states she can cover more ground than the crew with the ship (so she’s faster than supersonic at that point) and if the crew suddenly decided to use the hyperdrive to cover more ground than Helen does, then he’d be wrong, which I highly doubt given his intellect.

They can’t use the hyperdrive if they’re grounded. If it’s covering ground then it’s moving at supersonic speeds.

 

[Greenshifter]

Why are you assuming it’s inferior?

The bigger the voltage differences, the higher the electron speed, duh. (Well you basically have to go via kinetic energy, but with big voltage differences it basically comes down to this, hence why lightning, which has high voltage, is also faster than regular electricity)

Feedback can naturally generate electricity to fly.

Since when? Absorbers get an initial supply of energy from the Omnitrix and that’s about it.

They can’t use the hyperdrive if they’re grounded

Why not? Seems like a baseless assumption. Kevin just said his ship is supersonic in atmosphere and that he can use the hyperdrive to go FTL, not that he can’t use the hyperdrive in atmosphere.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The bigger the voltage differences, the higher the electron speed, duh. (Well you basically have to go via kinetic energy, but with big voltage differences it basically comes down to this, hence why lightning, which has high voltage, is also faster than regular electricity)

You didn’t answer my questions. Why are they different? What makes one inferior to the other? Give me details don't just say "they are."

Since when? Absorbers get an initial supply of energy from the Omnitrix and that’s about it.

During this fight Feedback doesn’t absorb anything but still flies. (Ironically he's still being outpaced by the FTL Time Beast) Also what show's that Conductoid can't release their own energy?

Why not? Seems like a baseless assumption. Kevin just said his ship is supersonic in atmosphere and that he can use the hyperdrive to go FTL, not that he can’t use the hyperdrive in atmosphere.

You think where they’re looking isn’t atmospheric? The area where they’re looking for Ben is breathable and they're close to ground level.

@Antvasima I’ve already proven the inconsistencies of the verse and two admins agree with me. This feels pointless because Green and I are just going in circles over minor points. Can I make the changes now?

 

[Greenshifter]

You didn’t answer my questions. Why are they different? What makes one inferior to the other? Give me details don't just say "they are."

Using minute voltage difference would give him less KE and thus speed than high voltage differences since voltage is a measurement of the energy of an electron. Now usually you’re better off using amperage but in cases where electricity actually moves in air both the amperage and the voltage are high so it doesn’t really matter here.

During this fight Feedback doesn’t absorb anything but still flies. (Ironically he's still being outpaced by the FTL Time Beast) Also what show's that Conductoid can't release their own energy?

Sure that’s the initial amount of energy that he gets from the Omnitrix. Feedback doesn’t have the ability to generate electricity, not here nor on Ben 10 wiki nor does anyone in the show mention he can generate electricity or energy. All energy he has comes from somewhere else.

You think where they’re looking isn’t atmospheric? The area where they’re looking for Ben is breathable and they're close to ground level.

I’m saying they can just switch to FTL regardless of atmosphere or not. This argument is getting quite repetitive though.

 

[Greenshifter]

I’ve already proven the inconsistencies of the verse

Have you proven why relativistic is consistent or why Way Big isn’t consistently MFTL?

Also wait for Firestorm.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Using minute voltage difference would give him less KE and thus speed than high voltage differences since voltage is a measurement of the energy of an electron. Now usually you’re better off using amperage but in cases where electricity actually moves in air both the amperage and the voltage are high so it doesn’t really matter here.

Interesting. Minute voltage launches him through space but higher voltages don’t. See the inconsistency?

Sure that’s the initial amount of energy that he gets from the Omnitrix. Feedback doesn’t have the ability to generate electricity, not here nor on Ben 10 wiki nor does anyone in the show mention he can generate electricity or energy. All energy he has comes from somewhere else.

The Ben 10 wiki? That’s your evidence? That’s the same wiki that says Alien X is omnipotent. Not reliable at all. Also this point is pretty moot as it doesn’t prove that it scales to their reactions while flying through space, since they’re just getting launched.

I’m saying they can just switch to FTL regardless of atmosphere or not. This argument is getting quite repetitive though.

That’s blatantly wrong since Kevin says it’s only supersonic in the atmosphere. And for the love of everything mighty. They’re grounded. All your doing is showing more flight speed feats, and I agree that it’s getting repetitive.

 

[Greenshifter]

Interesting. Minute voltage launches him through space but higher voltages don’t. See the inconsistency?

They just use minute voltages since it takes less effort from them and would work across a larger distance.

he Ben 10 wiki? That’s your evidence?

Burden of proof is on you to say he has a specific power. Also I'm scaling it to Malware's reactions.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Green, you're basically just saying they're MFTL+ because you think they can fly faster than they launch themselves with no real indication of such. If you can give other proof or feats of them being able to fly that fast then you have a point, but for now you really have nothing until you do.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Burden of proof is on you to say he has a specific power. Also I'm scaling it to Malware's reactions.

You’re the one making the claim that it scales to his reactions. Burden of proof is on you.

 

[DemonicDude]

Why can't we properly discuss this on discord came to a conclusion, agree on it together and then post it here to avoid circling arguments, that seems far more logical but hey... I'm just some random person who doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ben 10 (M)FTL(+) Feats List:

(At least) FTL (probably way higher)

Way Big shooting a cosmic Ray at a planet (and flying past it afterwards). Gwen reacts to this ray while Ben's explicity not holding back, this is the frame before her shield gets hit by the ray. (1)

Feedback reacts to Malware's tachyon cannon, weapon names in Ben 10 always describe what the weapon does and are straightforward. (2)

Upgrade taking control of a supercomputer (it clearly isn't a regular computer given all it's capabilities) in Plumbers HQ. Zs'skayr catches Upgrade off guard before he catches on to Zs'skayr's plan + Galvanic Mechamorphs aren't portrayed as faster in thought speed than other aliens. (3)

MFTL

Way Big reacts to the Conquest Ray which can blow up Pluto from about the middle of the distance between earth and Pluto. (4)

MFTL+

Aggregor flies to another galaxy in a short timeframe. (5)

Big Chill lives in space and are a migrating species, implying they can move from other star systems to their home planet and vice versa. (6)

Big Chill chases Aggregor and instead of going intangible to avoid drag, he transforms into Ultimate Big Chill, implying Ben's flyers aren't affected by drag and that Big Chill scales to Aggregor's flight speed. He also has a fight with Ripjaws' species before Aggregor even leaves the planet, which means his reactions and combat speed as well as the swimming speed of Ripjaws' species also scales. (scaling between 5 and 6 and to reactions)

Jetray reacts to his own Hyperspace. (7)

Vilgax and Sugilite go to Petropia in a short timeframe. (8)

Jetray can't shake Vilgax which means they’re going at full speed (without involving hyperspace) and still changes direction and what not, after all he's not affected by drag as established previously. (scaling 8 to reactions)

Way Big reacts to a planet being in his way while traveling through the galaxy in a day or so (same clip as above). (9)

Helen can cover more ground than a plumber ship. (10)

Feedback's species easily travels in a 60 diameter wide nebula. Them being propelled is essentially them just flying across it and the higher the voltage, the higher the energy and thus the higher the speed. (It also never says they launch themselves, propelling can be a continuous thing (and it probably is most of the time), such as Heatblast propelling himself with his fire to fly). Malware then fights a flying Feedback (11)

As a good friend of mine once said, lightning strikes once or twice, but it doesn’t strike 11 times. And I think I’m being very reasonable with only a relativistic, possibly MFTL+ instead of a straight up MFTL+. Since there are like 3 relativistic feats and 3/4 relativistic anti-feats (if that)

 

[Greenshifter]

You’re the one making the claim that it scales to his reactions. Burden of proof is on you.

I’m claiming it scales to Malware’s reaction and I think I backed up that point more than enough, meanwhile you’re claiming Feedback has a power which he didn’t demonstrate and fail to counter my point about his power coming from the Omnitrix, which can be easily seen with Chromastone who definitely doesn’t generate energy yet can still use some right after transforming.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

MFTL+

Aggregor flies to another galaxy in a short timeframe. (5)

Flying in a straight line through space =/= reactions.

Big Chill lives in space and are a migrating species, implying they can move from other star systems to their home planet and vice versa. (6)

Flight speed again.

Big Chill chases Aggregor and instead of going intangible to avoid drag, he transforms into Ultimate Big Chill, implying Ben's flyers aren't affected by drag and that Big Chill scales to Aggregor's flight speed. He also has a fight with Ripjaws' species before Aggregor even leaves the planet, which means his reactions and combat speed as well as the swimming speed of Ripjaws' species also scales. (scaling between 5 and 6 and to reactions)

Swimming =/= MFTL+ flight speed.

Jetray reacts to his own Hyperspace. (7)

What is he reacting too exactly? The portal just opens and then Jetray flies out. And like I said before, if Jetray was regularly massively FTL+ then he wouldn’t need to go into hyperspace. I know you said it's faster than Ship but that doesn’t matter because he'd still reach there in a short time. And it's still inconsistent with Vilgax and Aggregor's flight speed being much greater than hyperspace.

Vilgax and Sugilite go to Petropia in a short timeframe. (8)

Flying in straight lines again.

Jetray can't shake Vilgax which means they’re going at full speed (without involving hyperspace) and still changes direction and what not, after all he's not affected by drag as established previously. (scaling 8 to reactions)

Ok? That just means they’re not flying at MFTL+ speeds during that scene. It's not like they traversed the globe several hundred times over.

Way Big reacts to a planet being in his way while traveling through the galaxy in a day or so (same clip as above). (9)

The only legitimate reactionary feat huh?

Helen can cover more ground than a plumber ship. (10)

Imagine reusing the same debunked point ad nausea.

Feedback's species easily travels in a 60 diameter wide nebula. Them being propelled is essentially them just flying across it and the higher the voltage, the higher the energy and thus the higher the speed. (It also never says they launch themselves, propelling can be a continuous thing (and it probably is most of the time), such as Heatblast propelling himself with his fire to fly). Malware then fights a flying Feedback (11)

Literally it just means he's massively FTL+ when he uses it in space.

As a good friend of mine once said, lightning strikes once or twice, but it doesn’t strike 11 times. And I think I’m being very reasonable with only a relativistic, possibly MFTL+ instead of a straight up MFTL+. Since there are like 3 relativistic feats and 3/4 relativistic anti-feats (if that)

So far only the two Way Big feats count as actual reaction feats. Despite that, Zs'Skayr is always getting tagged by light. An FTL Time Beast is faster than Ben and Rook. Despite using the Time Cycles and having a head start Ben, Rook, Paradox and Ben 10K are almost caught in a black hole. XLR8 literally gets blinded by a flash of light. Ben 10k himself, says that he doesn’t have much time to himself because he's always patrolling the planet. If he ran at MFTL+ speeds, he would have all the time to himself that he needs, but no. He has to constantly patrol the planet 24/7. Also Grandpa Max literally says Malware doesn’t have FTL capability, lmao.

It's so obviously that Ben 10 is one of those shows that separate reactions and spaceflight. I wish not to drag this any longer. I made my point and it's as clear as day. Now kneel conceded.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Gotta say I have to agree with Zamasu Chan here its seems more reasonable since they often get blitzed by lightspeed beams or Literally light itself also time beast was praised for his speed being FTL like it was big Deal who completely Blitz Ben yeh

 

[Firestorm808]

Sorry for the late reply. Busy with work. It'll take some time to go over everything.

According to Kevin in Ultimate Aggregor, Tachyon Cannons leave radiation scoring on leftover debris.

 

[Firestorm808]

Regarding NRG, how do carbon rods dismiss gamma radiation being created?

 

[Antvasima]

Flying in a straight line through space =/= reactions.

I agree with this assessment in general.

 

[Greenshifter]

Flying in a straight line through space =/= reactions.

If I didn't say scales to in the feat itself then it's pointless to say stuff like this since this is just the feat itself I linked and just wrote the reason why it scales under it. Even then you could still scales his reactions are like 1/10000th of his flight speed to at least have some idea of where he's going and be able to stop in time.

Flight speed again.

See above.

Swimming =/= MFTL+ flight speed.

Actually yeah I just noticed the jets of water coming from Aggregor. Funnily enough this doesn't matter since Aggregor when flying in space right after exiting the planet doesn't go any faster than in the water and Big Chill's just flying under water, if you were to argue that somehow massively slows him down while being under water then he should have gone intangible instead of turning into Ultimate Big Chill, which he didn't.

What is he reacting too exactly? The portal just opens and then Jetray flies out. And like I said before, if Jetray was regularly massively FTL+ then he wouldn’t need to go into hyperspace. I know you said it's faster than Ship but that doesn’t matter because he'd still reach there in a short time. And it's still inconsistent with Vilgax and Aggregor's flight speed being much greater than hyperspace.

Either he has some stretched view of space or whatever in Hyperspace or he has the Omnitrix display the map of where he is relative to the universe, he'd still need to jump out of hyperspace in time. And even then he should have been going at his max MFTL+ speed when going back out since he had to speed up to enter it. If his reactions scale to hyperspace then his regular flight does as well to an extent, I doesn't make a ton of sense but hey it still happened. Guess Ben just chose the slightly faster alternative which would also allow him to not have to deal with objects being in his way. If we use 10 minutes or more for Vilgax' flight speed it would make sense (there was a scene-cut in the episode after all) and prove that Ultimate Aggregor did that in 10 minutes, from what I remember they still needed to get out of Ledgerdomain and all whereas he teleported out. All I said is flew to another galaxy in a short timeframe, maybe it's an hour, 10 minutes, several hours? Also Aggregor specifically got the aliens that he did to be able to fly to another galaxy, who knows maybe AmpFibian is a hidden super fast flyer after all?

Flying in straight lines again.

See nr. 1

Ok? That just means they’re not flying at MFTL+ speeds during that scene. It's not like they traversed the globe several hundred times over.

Neither do the relativistic characters traverse the globe several times over when they fight. Also cinematic timing is a thing, characters who’s reactions keep up with their own flight speed look as if they move at human speed both to themselves and as a consequence the audience or else we wouldn’t be able to see anything of the fight. Also you do know that Jetray being an MFTL+ flyer for scaling Vilgax is already accepted and applied on his page right? It seems a double standard to me to have to prove characters are flying at max speed when you want to scale them to each other but this not applying to any other speed stat you're trying to scale between characters. (ex. if Rook's FTL then you don't need to prove he moves at max combat speed to scale Khyber to FTL) Also if the solution was just for one of the 2 characters to move faster to tag or outpace the other one then they would have done so and clearly neither of them could. Also Tetrax and Gwen react to them flying so that's a bonus.

The only legitimate reactionary feat huh?

I assume you don't have a problem with all the other FTL and MFTL feats that debunk your point them since you didn't address them?

Imagine reusing the same debunked point ad nausea.

Imagine using a quote from Kevin to say his ship can only move at supersonic speeds in atmosphere when 1) logically the atmosphere doesn't change anything when it comes to speed, 2) Tetrax was able to warp to hyperspace within the atmosphere, 3) by scaling alone according to your interpretation his show would be relativistic instead of supersonic and 4) I still think he was referencing a hyperdrive that gives access to hyperspace at that moment so it's pretty irrelevant to it's max regular speed. Also some of your points I already debunked before so you're doing the same thing.

Literally it just means he's massively FTL+ when he uses it in space.

Why the heck would the atmosphere slow him down?

An FTL Time Beast is faster than Ben and Rook. Despite using the Time Cycles and having a head start Ben, Rook, Paradox and Ben 10K are almost caught in a black hole.

Here's the fun thing though, you admit the time cycles blitz the time beast and that the time beast is FTL, so logically they'd have no problem outpacing a black hole regardless. So either 1) That black hole is faster than light, 2) it's PIS, 3) they weren't using the full speed of the time cycles. In each case no contradiction, just Ben 10 being weird. In fact I'd say that the episode itself is being inconsistent in speed, perhaps we should discard it altogether?

XLR8 literally gets blinded by a flash of light

First off we agreed that XLR8 would still be FTL even if your revision went through since he blitzes Rook (via scaling to other Kinecelerans) to a similar degree as the time beast does, second off that's Hex's magical attack, so unless you wanna argue Vilgax is subsonic for not dodging Echo Echo's sound waves or that Ultimate Kevin is lower than MHS+ for not doding Gwen's lightning (albeit he did absorb it), I'd suggest not using other people's attacks that can easily upscale, especially if they're not even stated or proven to move at the speed of light.

Ben 10k himself, says that he doesn’t have much time to himself because he's always patrolling the planet.

Your second link doesn't work, in each this actually helps my case because 1) Ben not having the time to chill out is his own fault since he refuses help from anyone else so he’s really suffering from himself checking on every corner of the planet to keep it safe every few seconds/minutes (when he’s not fighting someone with comparable speed to himself that is) and 2) Patrolling all over the planet in a short timeframe would actually be an MFTL+ feat since there’s a lot of area to cover.

Also Grandpa Max literally says Malware doesn’t have FTL capability, lmao

Wow an actual anti-feat that isn’t Zs’skayr or comes from an inconsistent episode, good job. Which form of Malware was this again?

It's so obviously that Ben 10 is one of those shows that separate reactions and spaceflight.

Unrelated Marvel quote instead of actually proving it?

I think I made my point clear as well, Ben 10 is inconsistent but both relativistic and MFTL+ have about equal backing to them so the only way to actually solve this stalemate is a possibly rating.

Now kneel

You first