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Ben 10 General Discussion Thread

Also right now I'm working on a Kevin CRT, it's nothing super big just wanting to add a few keys and stuff.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
The red eyes and Mechamorph lines are a neat touch, although I feel the green and yellow makes the design work better. The red goes better with Kevin’s torso, his Pyronite arm and his Vulpimancer arms, which ironically makes the Petrosapien arm stick out like a sore thumb and look kinda goofy.
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TBF it's meant to go with how in Omniverse the green is swapped for the red and all alien have green eyes.
 
BlastX said:
TBF it's meant to go with how in Omniverse the green is swapped for the red and all alien have green eyes.
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Oh yeah true, and iirc Kevin’s Conductoid electricity (and maybe Opticoid beams too but I don’t remember) are red as well. Still though I don’t think it works too well, so if Kevin 11 was in Omniverse he’d probably need some design changes to look good if they wanted to commit to the red eyes thing.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
Oh yeah true, and iirc Kevin’s Conductoid electricity (and maybe Opticoid beams too but I don’t remember) are red as well. Still though I don’t think it works too well, so if Kevin 11 was in Omniverse he’d probably need some design changes to look good if they wanted to commit to the red eyes thing.
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It was Opticoid beams, Ben had lost Feedback by the point Kevin Mutated in the flashbacks, although his present mutation did have red electricity IIRC.
 
BlastX said:
It was Opticoid beams, Ben had lost Feedback by the point Kevin Mutated in the flashbacks, although his present mutation did have red electricity IIRC.
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Yeah I was talking about the present mutation for the electricity and the past for the beams, but I can see the confusion. Although is it confirmed that Ben didn’t have Feedback during the flashback, or is that just based on Kevin not having his DNA? I’m wondering because I like the “Omnitrix was removed because of Feedback’s death” headcanon and I want to know if there’s anything contradicting that idea in canon.
 
Speaking of OS Kevin 11: correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t his abilities much weaker than the aliens he absorbed? Like physically he has 1/10th the physical strength of every alien combined, but I think his powers are only at 1/10th of each individual alien.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
Yeah I was talking about the present mutation for the electricity and the past for the beams, but I can see the confusion. Although is it confirmed that Ben didn’t have Feedback during the flashback, or is that just based on Kevin not having his DNA? I’m wondering because I like the “Omnitrix was removed because of Feedback’s death” headcanon and I want to know if there’s anything contradicting that idea in canon.
Click to expand...
The Feedback story was made with that concept in mind when they came up with it but the Omniverse team really didn't like it as they stated and therefore the version of the story that made it into the show (the canon version) it's not really canon, as 11 year old Ben continued his adventures after the loss of Feedback.

And yes, he doesn't have him by that point, there's nothing indicating that all of 11 year old Ben adventure's happened before he lost Feedback.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
Speaking of OS Kevin 11: correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t his abilities much weaker than the aliens he absorbed? Like physically he has 1/10th the physical strength of every alien combined, but I think his powers are only at 1/10th of each individual alien.
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Yes, it's even reiterated later in UA that this is how Osmosians work, even if it's not exactly 1/10th, they are weaker than the source they're still weaker, at least Kevin 11 mutation works that way.
 
Funny enough in the CRT i'm working on i'm gonna bring that up, it won't change Kevin's ratings at the end of the day but it's still a weakness.
 
BlastX said:
The Feedback story was made with that concept in mind when they came up with it but the Omniverse team really didn't like it as they stated and therefore the version of the story that made it into the show (the canon version) it's not really canon, as 11 year old Ben continued his adventures after the loss of Feedback.

And yes, he doesn't have him by that point, there's nothing indicating that all of 11 year old Ben adventure's happened before he lost Feedback.
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Oh yeah I know that was the original intention, but just because they had to make it more vague later doesn’t mean Feedback can’t still be the catalyst.

Also it’s definitely possible that every flashback happened before Feedback was destroyed, as we know the flashbacks are all out of order already.

BlastX said:
Yes, it's even reiterated later in UA that this is how Osmosians work, even if it's not exactly 1/10th, they are weaker than the source they're still weaker, at least Kevin 11 mutation works that way.
Click to expand...
What I mean exactly is that with most Osmosian mutations both the physical strength and the abilities of the mutation have 1/10th the strength of every alien combined (or the full strength in Greg’s case), but with OS Kevin 11 specifically his abilities only have 1/10th the strength of the alien that power was taken from. So for example Kevin’s Pyronite blasts are only 1/10th the strength of Heatblast alone, whereas with any other mutation their blasts would be just as strong as their physical strength.

I think this is a weakness exclusive to OS Kevin 11 (as iirc even the flashback mutation doesn’t have this), maybe from the more indirect way he transformed or from him learning how to better use his powers while in the Null Void or something.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
Oh yeah I know that was the original intention, but just because they had to make it more vague later doesn’t mean Feedback can’t still be the catalyst.

Also it’s entirely possible that every flashback happened before Feedback was destroyed, as we know the flashbacks are all out of order already.
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I mean I'm not saying it couldn't be influenced by it, but Ben very clearly didn't took off the Omnitrix right after losing Feedback. Plus while some are out of order there's a clear progression on them, plus the intro changed by season 3 after young Ben lost Feedback, he doesn't transform into Feedback after he lost him and never ever mentions him again (which fits with how he dealt with his trauma of losing him), which is weird cause 11 year old Ben always used Feedback at least once and keep using him more and more due to his obssesion and we know he got him right after Destroy All Aliens so he had him before being 11, it's really weird that he never attempts on using him during Post-Showdown Flashbacks if he supposedly still had him, and yes, Kevin not having even some parts of Feedback should also be telling, because I feel if he still had him they would have shown some Conductoid parts on that Mutation. Overall I feel everything lines up a lot with 11 year old Ben still using the Omnitrix Post-Feedback death if only by a short bit.

Sorry for dropping this bible on you, it's nothing against you just a topic i'm really invested in.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
What I mean exactly is that with most Osmosian mutations both the physical strength and the abilities of the mutation have 1/10th the strength of every alien combined (or the full strength in Greg’s case), but with OS Kevin 11 specifically his abilities only have 1/10th the strength of the alien that power was taken from. So for example Kevin’s Pyronite blasts are only 1/10th the strength of Heatblast alone, whereas with any other mutation their blasts would be just as strong as their physical strength.

I think this is a weakness exclusive to OS Kevin 11 (as iirc even the flashback mutation doesn’t have this), maybe from the more indirect way he transformed or from him learning how to better use his powers while in the Null Void or something.
Click to expand...
TBF nothing indicates that Flasback Mutation Kevin or Kevin 12 didn't have this weakness, the thing is he has To'kustar DNA, so regardless of the 1/10th downside he's still massively stronger (and faster) than his previous mutation with a far more varied powerset, so he looks like he doesn't have that weakness anymore.
 
BlastX said:
I mean I'm not saying it couldn't be influenced by it, but Ben very clearly didn't took off the Omnitrix right after losing Feedback. Plus while some are out of order there's a clear progression on them, plus the intro changed by season 3 after young Ben lost Feedback, he doesn't transform into Feedback after he lost him and never ever mentions him again (which fits with how he dealt with his trauma of losing him), which is weird cause 11 year old Ben always used Feedback at least once and keep using him more and more due to his obssesion and we know he got him right after Destroy All Aliens so he had him before being 11, it's really weird that he never attempts on using him during Post-Showdown Flashbacks if he supposedly still had him, and yes, Kevin not having even some parts of Feedback should also be telling, because I feel if he still had him they would have shown some Conductoid parts on that Mutation. Overall I feel everything lines up a lot with 11 year old Ben still using the Omnitrix Post-Feedback death if only by a short bit.

Sorry for dropping this bible on you, it's nothing against you just a topic i'm really invested in.
Click to expand...
Yeah that’s a fair point, although tbf most of Ben’s post-Showdown flashbacks are pretty small and only have time for one alien so him not using Feedback isn’t too surprising (plus if they are out of order then they could just be before Ben got addicted or even before Feedback was even unlocked). Also in the case of Kevin’s mutation, we have to consider that both OV forms only have 10 aliens and the flashback mutation specifically was repping the second 10 aliens in the series. Also the present mutation already has Feedback so maybe they didn’t want to double-up.

At the end of the day though it’s just a headcanon, as long as it can work without any contradictions I see no reason why I can’t believe it to be the case (especially since that was the original intent). I just personally feel Ben taking off the Omnitrix (which he’s so intrinsically tied to both physically and emotionally) due to an on-screen traumatic event is the most narratively satisfying interpretation.

Also don’t worry about the large amount of text, as you can see I just did the same thing lol
 
BlastX said:
TBF nothing indicates that Flasback Mutation Kevin or Kevin 12 didn't have this weakness, the thing is he has To'kustar DNA, so regardless of the 1/10th downside he's still massively stronger (and faster) than his previous mutation with a far more varied powerset, so he looks like he doesn't have that weakness anymore.
Click to expand...
If he did have the same weakness then his abilities would still only be 1/10th of their donors and wouldn’t be affected by his To’kustar DNA, so stuff like his vines wouldn’t be that strong.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
If he did have the same weakness then his abilities would still only be 1/10th of their donors and wouldn’t be affected by his To’kustar DNA, so stuff like his vines wouldn’t be that strong.
Click to expand...
Well Florafauna's vines are noted to be really strong, so maybe even 1/10th of their power is still very strong, plus it's not like the people he trapped then with were powerhouses at the time.

Although I think I misunderstood what you said so maybe you were right.
 
BlastX said:
Well Florafauna's vines are noted to be really strong, so maybe even 1/10th of their power is still very strong, plus it's not like the people he trapped then with were powerhouses at the time.

Although I think I misunderstood what you said so maybe you were right.
Click to expand...
Nah I think you got it, also I forgot how small Manny was at the time so yeah maybe everyone trapped just weren’t strong enough.
 
Also the CRT looks good. Perhaps OS Kevin 11 could have like “High 6-A, possibly Low 5-B physically and with combination attacks, lower with individual powers” or something like that? Maybe it could be worded better, idk.

Also on the topic of Kevin 12 being High 5-A (also I’d say he should just be flat-out High 5-A), I wonder if that could have any implications on Ultimate Kevin. While Kevin doesn’t remember turning into Kevin 12, it would be weird for Kevin’s “A-game” and a form literally named “Ultimate Kevin” to be weaker than some random form he used for like a minute 5 years ago. Plus considering he ignored the Omnitrix in favour of something better and has a WoG statement of having all of Ben’s aliens, I feel like he should definitely be High 5-A. After all it’s not like anyone other than Ultimate Echo Echo and Ultimate Humungousaur scales to him, although with the 10x statement of Ultimate Humungousaur a question would have to be made on if we just ignore that statement or say his fight with Ultimate Kevin is invalid or what.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
Yeah that’s a fair point, although tbf most of Ben’s post-Showdown flashbacks are pretty small and only have time for one alien so him not using Feedback isn’t too surprising (plus if they are out of order then they could just be before Ben got addicted or even before Feedback was even unlocked). Also in the case of Kevin’s mutation, we have to consider that both OV forms only have 10 aliens and the flashback mutation specifically was repping the second 10 aliens in the series. Also the present mutation already has Feedback so maybe they didn’t want to double-up.

At the end of the day though it’s just a headcanon, as long as it can work without any contradictions I see no reason why I can’t believe it to be the case (especially since that was the original intent). I just personally feel Ben taking off the Omnitrix (which he’s so intrinsically tied to both physically and emotionally) due to an on-screen traumatic event is the most narratively satisfying interpretation.

Also don’t worry about the large amount of text, as you can see I just did the same thing lol
Click to expand...
Again unless Ben was 11 year old in Destroy All Aliens he already had Feedback before the Omniverse flashbacks even started, plus considering how important Feedback being overused for his arc, it's still really weird that he doesn't even attempt to transform into him, plus they initially considered adding Clockwork to Kevin's mutation because of Ben Again before cutting it because he didn't have him anymore due to time shenanigans, so obviously they weren't limited to the second 10, plus the second 10th/20th alien spot is shared between Feedback and Articguana since Ben only unlocked 19 aliens in OS (True form Ghostfreak doesn't counts since it's just re-adding something he lost) so I feel the fact Feedback was not included in the mutation is because ben did not have him anymore, also Kevin 11 and Ultimate Kevin share a diamondhead arm, so it's not like Kevin's mutations can't have double-up, I mean like three of them have four arms.

I don't mind the Headcanon or people that believe on it, I just get annoyed with people that state it as if it was a fact when you can very easily argue the opposite both with authoritarial intent (regardless of how this story was conceived, the version the Omniverse crew made in the show wasn't made with the intent of Ben taking off the watch because of Feedback,, they even hated being railroaded to that idea in the first place, plus I feel their vision of the story matters too) and things from the show itself (all the things I mentioned already). Plus while I do think losing Feedback was a very important even in Ben's life for better and for worse, I feel it's a bit...IDK, dismissive of his character that he got so depressed he took off the watch and spent years to recover, I do think Feedback was part of the reason he took it off, I just don't think it was the only or even the main reason.

I hope this didn't sound mean or anything, I just wanted to discuss it in a good manner and I don't know if I sound too mean or not.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
Also the CRT looks good. Perhaps OS Kevin 11 could have like “High 6-A, possibly Low 5-B physically and with combination attacks, lower with individual powers” or something like that? Maybe it could be worded better, idk.

Also on the topic of Kevin 12 being High 5-A (also I’d say he should just be flat-out High 5-A), I wonder if that could have any implications on Ultimate Kevin. While Kevin doesn’t remember turning into Kevin 12, it would be weird for Kevin’s “A-game” and a form literally named “Ultimate Kevin” to be weaker than some random form he used for like a minute 5 years ago. Plus considering he ignored the Omnitrix in favour of something better and has a WoG statement of having all of Ben’s aliens, I feel like he should definitely be High 5-A. After all it’s not like anyone other than Ultimate Echo Echo and Ultimate Humungousaur scales to him, although with the 10x statement of Ultimate Humungousaur a question would have to be made on if we just ignore that statement or say his fight with Ultimate Kevin is invalid or what.
Click to expand...
I guess you could argue he does, he does have Ultimate Form DNA too as he has Ultimate Humungosaur's eye and Ultimate Spidermonkey's webs, so he is made of pretty strong stuff too.

Also I too thought he should be High 5-A flat out but I wanted to avoid it being too controversial.

Although I don't think the Ultimatrix had all of Ben's aliens at the time, it's only til Ben 10k re-unlocks everything he actually has all his aliens back.
 
Also if i'm not wrong the doc I posted can be edited by anyone with a Link, I say this cause some clips and stuff are hard to get for me, at least in english, so if anyone wants to help they're more than welcome.
 
BlastX said:
Again unless Ben was 11 year old in Destroy All Aliens he already had Feedback before the Omniverse flashbacks even started, plus considering how important Feedback being overused for his arc, it's still really weird that he doesn't even attempt to transform into him, plus they initially considered adding Clockwork to Kevin's mutation because of Ben Again before cutting it because he didn't have him anymore due to time shenanigans, so obviously they weren't limited to the second 10, plus the second 10th/20th alien spot is shared between Feedback and Articguana since Ben only unlocked 19 aliens in OS (True form Ghostfreak doesn't counts since it's just re-adding something he lost) so I feel the fact Feedback was not included in the mutation is because ben did not have him anymore, also Kevin 11 and Ultimate Kevin share a diamondhead arm, so it's not like Kevin's mutations can't have double-up, I mean like three of them have four arms.

I don't mind the Headcanon or people that believe on it, I just get annoyed with people that state it as if it was a fact when you can very easily argue the opposite both with authoritarial intent (regardless of how this story was conceived, the version the Omniverse crew made in the show wasn't made with the intent of Ben taking off the watch because of Feedback,, they even hated being railroaded to that idea in the first place, plus I feel their vision of the story matters too) and things from the show itself (all the things I mentioned already). Plus while I do think losing Feedback was a very important even in Ben's life for better and for worse, I feel it's a bit...IDK, dismissive of his character that he got so depressed he took off the watch and spent years to recover, I do think Feedback was part of the reason he took it off, I just don't think it was the only or even the main reason.

I hope this didn't sound mean or anything, I just wanted to discuss it in a good manner and I don't know if I sound too mean or not.
Click to expand...
Yeah I can see where you’re coming from. Also Clockwork being considered for Kevin 12 is a good point against Kevin 12 just being OS aliens, although I still think him not having Feedback could just be because OV had him too. While Ultimate Kevin did double-up with Diamondhead, the OV mutants were both in the same two-parter and were limiting themselves to 10 aliens so they might’ve just thought having Feedback twice would be a bit silly.

Also I get the whole “treating it as fact” thing getting annoying, as some of the people I’ve seen arguing against Feedback being the main driving force do the same thing and say that it can’t possibly be the case.
 
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BlastX said:
I guess you could argue he does, he does have Ultimate Form DNA too as he has Ultimate Humungosaur's eye and Ultimate Spidermonkey's webs, so he is made of pretty strong stuff too.

Also I too thought he should be High 5-A flat out but I wanted to avoid it being too controversial.

Although I don't think the Ultimatrix had all of Ben's aliens at the time, it's only til Ben 10k re-unlocks everything he actually has all his aliens back.
Click to expand...
There’s also a WoG statement he has all of the Ultimates, in case there was any doubt.

Yeah the Ultimatrix didn’t have all of Ben’s aliens at that point, but it did have Way Big and Kevin considered it overall better than the Omnitrix in terms of the power he could draw from it.
 
Also wouldn't Kevin 12 speed be FTL+ since it should be 1/10th of Way Big's? He did easily react, perceived and catched XLR8 with his vines so he should be plenty fast too.
 
BlastX said:
Also wouldn't Kevin 12 speed be FTL+ since it should be 1/10th of Way Big's? He did easily react, perceived and catched XLR8 with his vines so he should be plenty fast too.
Click to expand...
I don’t think mutations affect combat speed or else Ultimate Greg and Ultimate Kevin would be blitzing everyone, so Kevin would probably just be Relativistic still.
 
Wait why isn’t young Kevin Relativistic? The whole reason he even gets his mutations is because he scales to Ben’s aliens in speed. Plus as established by Ultimate Greg and Kevin, Osmosian mutations don’t affect combat speed.

Also it would be pretty dumb of Servantis to send him as part of a hit squad if he didn’t scale in speed.
 
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BlastX said:
Also wouldn't Kevin 12 speed be FTL+ since it should be 1/10th of Way Big's? He did easily react, perceived and catched XLR8 with his vines so he should be plenty fast too.
Click to expand...
I'm sure that's not how it works, and we haven't been shown the waybig side of it, so it's better to look at it in terms of power, not speed.
 
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