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Battletoads Upgrades

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It smashes out of the Moon, but it still shatters the Moon at the very speeds calculated at 5-A. And I already addressed it in the OP, this is Canon to Battletoads. It is Chronologically the 4th game in the Battletoads Franchise. Reason it only applies to Battletoads and not the Double Dragon cast. It was mentioned in both the OP and I linked the Crossovers page.
 
@Dark

Was the Moon shown to be complete shattered entirely on-screen or off screen? I think a space rock that is smaller than the size of the moon to not necessarily implied the moon was entirely scattered into pieces though.
 
That sounds like pure headcanon and personal congesture; and completely ignoring the context given that it is "The Moon". It clearly says, "The Moon" and again, this happens near Earth which would be the Earth's Moon. It shatters it on screen which you can clearly see if you actually watched the video. You also clearly see the entire moon was completely shattered.
 
@Dark

I suppose so. The next problem is how we used to determined the speed out of that and it look like the moon got fragmented into large pieces which will lower the result a bit indicating the moon wasn't completely reduced to very small chunks though and in fact got destroyed in rather large pieces.


What is the other feat anyway?


Actually that is head canon to assume it came from the Ratship.


The scan did say a battle cruiser, but not the name of the ship itself though.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
he's been doing this on several threads even when corrected...
Click to expand...
Not several thread though. Again as I still have my concerns anyway. Please don't as I don't want to attempt to derail this thread into oblivions given my unfamiliarity with this site's standards regarding certain things.
 
The Ratship is the name of the Dark Queen's Battlecruiser; so it is the very same one. And there's plenty of other feats such as the Rat Ship flying at Relativistic speeds, the Missile stated to be capable of destroying planets. And other games in the Battletoads lore mentioning planet busting technologies. And the fact that Robo-Manus survived the Planet Busting Missile that has more firepower than the Ratship's ramming strength.
 
@Dark

Is this true? I am aware of this as the moon getting destroyed would be just be chalked up to being 5C or 5B as the moon shown in-game doesn't seems to be shown to have the same size of our Moon does it? I mean it is very hard to tell the size of the moon with that video and how old it is too.
 
First of all, how is the moon not being shown to have the same size an argument for 5-C?

Secondly, unless stated otherwise we will take the moon to be the same size as normal, it's the default assumption. If your concern is that it's only slightly bigger than the ratship, that seems to be only an artistic liberty required to properly display the battleship.
 
Not to mention, "City sized Battlecruiser" could mean anything. Some cities like Phoenix Arizona have hundreds of kilometers in diameter. Plus, it should be noted that the Ratship was getting closer to the Earth after it shattered the Moon.
 
Andytrenom said:
First of all, how is the moon not being shown to have the same size an argument for 5-C?

Secondly, unless stated otherwise we will take the moon to be the same size as normal, it's the default assumption. If your concern is that it's only slightly bigger than the ratship, that seems to be only an artistic liberty implemented to properly display the battleship.
Click to expand...
With the statement of the battle cruiser being the size of the city while smashing out of the moon doesn't straight up implies 5A KE though. After all the moon was shatter in large chunks and doesn't seems to be throughly been destroyed to be considered something to be a 5A though especially since we using cinematic timing in this scenario.


If the moon is portrayed to be lower than the size of our irl moon, then it comes down to authorial intent after all in this situation which I assumed it gets disregarded in favor of the normal size.

Also the size still matters since the object in question being destroyed is the moon anyway.
 
Wait when I check the cinematic timing page:


"Cinematic time should not be used if the time-frame the event of interest happens in occurs during a time-frame that is suggested to be sped up in any way and a cut is involved."

Considering prior to that the Dark Queen mentioned she will rule the Earth and mentioned the Battle Toads in a insulting way according to her own statement prior to this feat here,
6424A309-0F5C-4074-9535-4A070F119158
 
There's 0 proof that it's smaller than the moon, and at this point. It really sounds like you're cluttering the thread with nonsense. It clearly shatters the moon, and the speed of the moon parts being launched clearly calcs it at 5-A if you read the blog post. And I addressed the statement regarding "City-Sized Battlecruiser". It could be an understatement or it's not specific which city it's comparing to. And there's also the fact that the ship does get much closer to the view shortly after the shatterpoint, so saying it's not that much smaller than the moon is the same thing as saying the hair in my eye is bigger than the sun.

And that statement does not apply here; there is no time cut. That's just the Dark Queen saying she's going to rule the Earth, and of course already knows who the Battletoads are.
 
> @Kepekley, it's a retro video game that's full of superhuman feats like this. Look at Bill Rizer, Castlevania, Ryu Hayabusa, ToeJam & Earl, White Bomberman ect. Plenty of the verses are much stronger than one would expect. There's also plenty of Relativistic, and all those low end feats are extremely casual; so the Outlier argument doesn't work here. This is also a verse full of planet busting technology where almost no one ever dies making it very consistent.

Please provide these other Tier 5 feats. Your provided reasoning is super vague. Just because people perform "superhuman" stuff doesn't excuse a jump from tier 7 (the next best feat I'm seeing on your link) to 5-A. This is the very definition of an outlier without supporting feats.

Castlevania is a false equivalence. Fodder in Castlevania is Tier 9, only the God-Tiers are Low 2-C and there is more than 1 or 2 feats on that level. Meanwhile from what I'm seeing the bosses and main characters never perform anything remotely close ever again on Battletoads.
 
> Not to mention, "City sized Battlecruiser" could mean anything. Some cities like Phoenix Arizona have hundreds of kilometers in diameter.

What the...?

No, they don't. Not to mention this is a fallacious argument. Just because some cities are super big doesn't excuse "city-sized can mean hundreds of kilometers . The average city is far, far smaller than hundreds of kilometers in diameter (no such city exists, by the way - area isn't the same thing as diameter), so that's what we are using.

Also, if the ship was stated to be city-sized and the scene itself shows it smashing through the Moon as if it were the same size, then it's extremely unlikely that the calculation's timeframe and scale is accurate. Either the moon is smaller than s or the feat is exaggerated on-screen. Most likely the second option. At most here I can see a "5-C", and that is still assuming it isn't an outlier. Jumping from City level to Moon level with one feat when the verse seems to be consistently lower than that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, and it isn't a situation of "this feat was performed by a God-Tier while the tier 7 feat wasn't". The Tier 7 feats are all God Tier feats and come from boss fights.
 
@Kep Is there any implication outside the cutscene that the moon is much smaller than normal? Because if there isn't I'm much more inclined to believe this is an art error/artistic liberty than anything else.
 
@Kepekley, it comes from this statement is a back up Tier 5 feat. Stage 5 is that Robo-Manus is piloting a planet busting missile, which could be lowballed at High 6-A or 5-B, but the missile has no reason to be weaker than the Ratship's ramming strength, so 5-A is legit. Also, read the actual context of each feat; the tier 7 stuff are extremely casual; since when does casually flying/spinning at Sub-Relativistic speeds or punching someone and launching them at Relativistic speeds higher priority than actual feats? I could use that logic to downgrade Boros to 9-B because he was hurt when all Saitama did was punch him through one wall.

You also didn't read the other examples; only focused on one exampled which is one-sided, narrow-minded tactic. Look at the White Bomberma example, he has a bunch of Tier 5 feats, 2 3-B feats, and one feat that's lowballed at 3-A and one statement about 2-C. And to quote AssaltWaffle, the Outlier argument is far too exaggerated. ToeJam & Earl are 5-B based on two Planet level durability feats, and Earthworm Jim is 3-A. Just because there's only one or two feats that are overwhelmingly greater than every other feat doesn't make it an outlier; there needs to be elaborate context to explain it rather than just crying "Outlier" at every single high end feat you see. When comes to top tiers and god tiers, high end feats take priority over everything. And also, cut scenes and in depth lore take priority over gameplay. The high end feats come from canon cutscenes and the actual story where as the "Tier 7" stuff comes from either basic flight speed or people getting punched/launched at great speeds.

Also, you said God Tier very loosely, so if someone god tier very casually destroyed a city just be sneezing, burping, or farting and then they have access to a Death Star like weapon that is stated to be capable of destroying planets and has destroyed one. It would be an outlier for the Death Star to destroy a planet? Furthermore, that same missile that was going to destroy the Earth is literally something the Dark Queen regularly has at her disposal, and considering Robo-Manus pilots those same missiles all the time and survives the detonation of those very same missiles at point blanks regularly, that's what I call the opposite of an outlier.

And the calc is not exaggerated. I get the feeling you're paying attention to the 106 yottato calc in the DeviantArt link, which I can agree that one is. But Andy Calculated is here and it was actually lowballed at 8.26 Yottatons, but still legit. And the size fallacy is horrible; that's the same thing as saying houses/towns in Dragon Quest are smaller than the people. You can't just pull a LordXcano and just assume the smallest low ends you can find; that is beyond knit picky and a massive double standard compared to how a lot of classic games are treated. It's also the same thing as saying the God of War Titans are 7-A just because they're only Mountain sized. And it's the same thing as calling Kirby's planets 9-A sized or that Sonic's max running speed is 10 m/s. The statement about the Ratship being city sized isn't even a specific statement; it doesn't say how many kilometers long it is. And oh yeah, my mistake; 217 kilometers was referring to the length of the canals and stuff. But still, the Ratship is actually a lot smaller than the Moon, but you simply see it flying closer to the Earth after it blows up the Moon. And the Moon is still the same as our moon; so we use the diameter of the moon, case closed.

There is also no outliers to be had for the reasons I mentioned above; if both feats are performed by god/top tiers, then the high end feats take priority. Especially if Robo-Manus canonically has very consistent Tier 5 durability feats. Also, if you want to be 100% literal, the Battletoads themselves are the actual God Tiers. They were the ones who programmed and created the Battletoads Universe to begin with and was intended to be "The Hardest Video Game Ever Made". And said universe also contains numerous galaxies, and the Dark Queen rules over her own galactic empire. I'm not saying the Battletoads should be universal because of that, but it should further prove that the Ratship's Tier 5 feat as well as the missiles being above that and Tier 5 is legit. The Relativistic speed feats are also legit. And as I said, this game too is programmed by the Battletoads and is thus canon to the Battletoads.
 
I do have an issue with how Outliers arguments tend to be used

If a feat is explicitly contradicted, then it makes sense to dismiss it

If there's a clear scale of power that a character has been portrayed as throughout his long history, then it also seems reasonable to dismiss one ridiculously high showing

But just having one high end feat and nothing else coming close shouldn't be a reason because nothing dictates that an absence of supporting feats makes one feat unusable, it's making sense within the overall context of the series that determines whether something is an outlier or not. I don't think the outlier argument is valid unless you can show that 5-A is an illogical rating for the Battletoads within the context of the series or that they've been explicitly demonstrated at a level far below that.
 
@Andy, yeah; that's why I plan on making a thread clarifying the word outlier actually means. It simply means a feat that doesn't belong or fit in. Outliers and PIS are essentially the same thing. And yeah, one high end feat that's above the rest doesn't automatically make it unusable; especially if all the low end feats are super casual.

Instead, there needs to be a combinations of a lot of details to call it an outlier. Not just having 1, or it being far above every other feat in the verse, but it needs to be those in combination that the low end feats are consistently things characters equal to or greater than struggle to do; or that the high end feat required a plot enhancement they don't normally have access to. Which isn't the case at all here.

Let's also not forget the fact that Destructive Capacity and Attack Potency are two widely different things.
 
First of all; I just noticed that the supposed 5-A durability feat from the missile's explosion isn't even an actual feat. It's just Robo-Manus tanking the explosion of a missile that was going to destroy the Earth had it landed. Read this well - it isn't him tanking the missile itself hitting the Earth, it is him tanking the missile being stopped and then blown up by the cast before it could actually destroy the planet.

This is completely unquantifiable. It'd be one thing if, say, the cast redirected the missile to a distant meteor and it hit the meteor and exploded with Robo-Manus atop it. That would be a Tier 5 feat - but destroying the missile itself and then tanking the explosion generated by its destruction is unquantifiable. This is because of how missiles work - a missile is destructive and powerful because of the warhead, which is triggered and causes those flashy city-block levelling blasts we see in real life and in video games. However, whenever we intercept a missile in real life, it works by disintegrating the missile entirely, thus preventing the warhead from detonating in the first place.

Technically, yes, the missile would have some secondary destructive effects via its massive speed and kinetic energy generated from it - but that would be nowhere near Tier 5, and the part of the missile that would Earth-bust would be the warhead.

So the main feat that actually supports the whole scaling pretty much doesn't exist to begin with, but even then, let's proceed.

> @Kepekley, it comes from this statement is a back up Tier 5 feat. Stage 5 is that Robo-Manus is piloting a planet busting missile, which could be lowballed at High 6-A or 5-B, but the missile has no reason to be weaker than the Ratship's ramming strength, so 5-A is legit

Which still doesn't justify the rating for the main cast, considering this is from a spaceship, not from Robo-Manus himself, so it can't be used to argue his durability or AP.

> Also, read the actual context of each feat; the tier 7 stuff are extremely casual; since when does casually flying/spinning at Sub-Relativistic speeds or punching someone and launching them at Relativistic speeds higher priority than actual feats? I could use that logic to downgrade Boros to 9-B because he was hurt when all Saitama did was punch him through one wall.

Extreme false equivalence here.

1. On the Boros thing; being punched through something by someone is meaningless and not an actual low-end that we ever use. Boros was hurt because Saitama was the one punching him, not because it was a wall, so this already fails right off the bat if your intent was to compare my argument to that.

2. "Actual feats". This is vague as hell. Anything that happens in the lore counts as a valid feat. Punching someone at X speeds is a valid feat. Destroying something is a valid feat. Moving X mass at Y speeds is a valid feat. There is no line where it suddenly doesn't become a feat.

> You also didn't read the other examples; only focused on one exampled which is one-sided, narrow-minded tactic. Look at the White Bomberman example, he has a bunch of Tier 5 feats, 2 3-B feats, and one feat that's lowballed at 3-A and one statement about 2-C. And to quote AssaltWaffle, the Outlier argument is far too exaggerated. ToeJam & Earl are 5-B based on two Planet level durability feats, and Earthworm Jim is 3-A

First of all; Bomberman is a massive false equivalence, considering this is a verse where most of the lower ends come from gameplay and fodder issues, with the real lore feats coming in from the Top and God-Tiers, which is why it isn't an outlier. From the little I remember of ToeJam & Earl, their situation is much the same - the game is almost entirely gameplay, meaning we only have a couple feats to base any page off of anyway. As a legit Earthworm Jim fan, mentioning him is the epitome of the false equivalences in this thread - he has a relatively consistent amount of Tier 3 lore feats, not just one durability feat with every other feat from bosses, villains and himself being quintillions of times lower.

> Just because there's only one or two feats that are overwhelmingly greater than every other feat doesn't make it an outlier; there needs to be elaborate context to explain it rather than just crying "Outlier" at every single high end feat you see. When comes to top tiers and god tiers, high end feats take priority over everything.

This is false. If God-Tiers consistently showcase lower feats and if the higher-end feat is literally quintillions of times higher than anything else they have ever demonstrated, that is an outlier. Literally the whole reason why DMC ever got downgraded, because we still considered Sid-Abigail as an actual God-Tier (which we no longer do) and his feats were vastly lower than that of Mundus'

The Toads' status as a God-Tier would only matter if the lower feats belonged to fodders, not from major bosses and villains who can compete with them.

> Also, you said God Tier very loosely, so if someone god tier very casually destroyed a city just be sneezing, burping, or farting and then they have access to a Death Star like weapon that is stated to be capable of destroying planets and has destroyed one. It would be an outlier for the Death Star to destroy a planet

This is a massive strawman as I never once said anything like this.

If someone city-busted and then rode a spaceship that could Planet-Bust, the feat would belong to the spaceship and wouldn't be scalable to the character at all without further showings. This much is completely obvious and isn't even worth of debating.

Now, if they could block or somehow stop the cannon beam from the Death Star that could planet-bust somehow with their sheer strength, that would be 5-B, but that would require us to bring up other feats. Is City level super casual for him? Does he have other feats that come close? In both cases for the Toads, the answer is a hard no.

We have always done this. We never instantaneously approve higher-end feats just because we want to without any further elaborate discussion on the matter. We always check other feats to see if it is consistent. This isn't as simple as the Toads going to 7-A from formerly 7-C to 7-B feats. This is literally them going to 5-A based on one single feat (since the missile explosion for Robo-Manus isn't valid) that is being applied through several different layers of scaling before it reaches them.

> Furthermore, that same missile that was going to destroy the Earth is literally something the Dark Queen regularly has at her disposal, and considering Robo-Manus pilots those same missiles all the time and survives the detonation of those very same missiles at point blanks regularly, that's what I call the opposite of an outlier.

The Dark Queen having similar weapons at her disposal regularly is completely irrelevant to her own AP or durability, unless she is shown to scale to them. This is the exact same thing as a King character who owns several 8-C weapons and catapults under his army's arsenal and uses them whenever he attacks other kingdoms/empires - does that suddenly mean he scales just because they are abundant? No, that makes literally no sense.

"Robo-Manus surviving their detonation regularly". Since when literally one single instance of this happening in the whole series that doesn't even apply to his durability as I've gone in-depth about above suddenly turns into a "regular" occurrence?

> And the size fallacy is horrible; that's the same thing as saying houses/towns in Dragon Quest are smaller than the people.

Wow, massive false equivalence.

I didn't even say the Moon was smaller - this is yet another strawman. I said that there was a very small possibility this was the case. What I actually focused on in the whole argument was the possibility that the timeframe itself is unreliable,thus downgrading the feat to just a general "5-C" via it destroying the Moon. And this whole paragraph was just a general "maybe" from my part.

> You can't just pull a LordXcano and just assume the smallest low ends you can find; that is beyond knit picky and a massive double standard compared to how a lot of classic games are treated.

Neither can one try to upgrade characters to 5-A via one single feat when every other feat performed by God-Tier characters is in the tier 7 range.

> It's also the same thing as saying the God of War Titans are 7-A just because they're only Mountain sized

False equivalence, once more. They actually have relatively consistent feats and scale to other feats on the same level from other God-Tiers.

> There is also no outliers to be had for the reasons I mentioned above; if both feats are performed by god/top tiers, then the high end feats take priority. Especially if Robo-Manus canonically has very consistent Tier 5 durability feats.

Robo-Manus has one 5-B feat that is being powerscaled to 5-A - andsaid feat isn't even an actual 5-B or 5-A feat for reasons I have detailed in this same post, in the very first paragraph How this somehow translates to "extremely consistent amount of feats" is really, really beyond me. Aside from this, there is only one tier 5 thingy in the whole franchise - a 5-A calc from the Ratship that is being applied to the Battletoads via them destroying stuff that resisted stuff that could compete with the Ratship.

This is the literal definition of an outlier for the Battletoads themselves. Every other God-Tier feat is Tier 7, even when they're actually serious.

The 5-A feat from the Ratship itself wouldn't be an outlier since it wouldn't scale to the cast itself, just to the ships, but the Battletoads scaling to it is an outlier.

So yeah, still hard-noing this upgrade.
 
Hmm.

Yeah, after re reading the debate, i have to agree with Kep here. The other 5-A dura feat not even existing definetly did it for me.

Still, the Toads are still upgraded to tier 7 right?
 
Give me some time to comment, I still got a big refute to his point.
 
Oof. I agree with Kep's rebuttal heavily here, as always is the case.

The planet-busting missile doesn't scale to Robo-Manus himself, so the only thing remaining to support is a spaceship's ramming strength being applied through several A > B > C layers. Powerscaling is valid,obviously, but we explicitly note that, the more steps, the more feats are required to substantiate them, and in this case there is none.

With every other feat, including Robo-Manus himself and other bosses, only being Tier 7 - I can definitely agree with Kep's wall of text
 
Well, the Missile would at the very least have to have enough power to destroy the Earth, even lowballing it would still be Tier 6 as it would at the very least have to penetrate through the Earth's core. And doing that was 6-C or 6-B? Somewhere around that. And you just completely misinterpreted your own reasonings; when you said the Tier 5 Bomberman stuff comes from Gameplay while the Tier 3/2 comes from cutscenes, that was a major double standard entirely. The Tier 5 feat came from both the on screen intro and the offical storyline while the Tier 7 feats are just gameplay and casual movement speed feats. Also, the Ratship still took 0 damage when it crashed through the moon, so by Newton's third law, it would still effect the durability of the Ratship. I also find it hypocritical that you used Mundus as an example when you're the one who upgraded them back to 3-A to begin with.

The Rat Pods are capable of damaging the Ratship/Colossus as seen in the boss fight, so there's 0 reason for their attacks to not be too far below the Large Planet level durability of the Ratship. Those same Rat Pods are also able to withstand a few hits from the Ratship, and while it does receive massive damage, it actually is still capable of withstanding a ram from the Ratship as well. So the Rat Pods can't be too much weaker than the Ratship in terms of strength and durability. The Battletoads are also capable of wrecking those same Rat Pods to pieces.

As for Robo-Manus again; again, Robo-Manus has very consistently piloted those same planet busting missiles to destroy other planets. That's pretty much the primary method of Robo-Manus destroying planets. And even when he does, even the detonations of the planets he has destroyed are things he survives regularly. And actually, the missile was redirected at the gun downed Ratship which is referred to as "The Junk Yard Pile". Again, if you want to low ball it as much as possible, it would still be Tier 6. However, the missile is still implied to have more firepower than the Ratship's ramming strength as the Moon crashing which is 100% legit is 5-A and did no damage to the Ratship is then truly destroyed by the same "Planet Busting Missile".

And actually, there's other feats I forgot to mention. Silas Volkmire actually as a Universal feat; according to the official story, he merged with Gamescape and Reality Warped his own Universe. And he also supposedly gave the Dark Queen his own reality warping powers and made her just as powerful as him. And despite this, the Battletoads still defeated them and apparently destroyed their universe in the process. Some more info can be found here, though long video. There's also a pretty blatant Massively FTL+ speed feat shown here. And it's consistent with Dark Queen "flying to the corner of the universe and back within months". So if they can travel interstellar distances within seconds and Intergalactic distances within months, Massively FTL+ is still legit. Those same ships also have projectiles faster than the ships themselves, and the Toads while piloting Rat Pods have reacted to and dodged the same projectiles while also flying at great speeds.

I'm willing to pass the Universal stuff as outliers because Silas Volkmire used a power up they don't normally have access to and the Toads still defeated them for plot reasons. But the Ratship alone is easily Tier 5, and if you want to Knit/Pick Lowball the Missile as much as possible, it would still be Tier 6. The Tier 7 stuff were literally performed without even trying to cause destruction. The 2nd Tier 7 calc is also lowballed; Robo-Manus is actually 12,931 Lb or 5865.4029 kg. This makes the City level+ calc more like Large Mountain level+. And the High 7-C calc done by Dark Queen was nothing more than just her spinning around. A Olympic Athlete taking deep breaths shouldn't be treated as a higher priority feat than bench pressing 1000 pounds. And that's literally 99% of the counter arguments being given. And again, the Missile can destroy the 5-A Ratship and it can destroy the Earth, but it cannot kill Robo-Manus. That should be self explanatory.

So yeah, Tier 6 is the absolute minimum that can be argued as is Relativistic speed. But it would still be far more logical for them to be 5-A and Massively FTL+. And at worst, they could be 3-A given the situation with Volkmaire, but that's what I'd call the actual outlier in the room. Also, a few abilities; Weapon Mastery, Vehicular Mastery, limited Size Manipulation, and Breaking the Fourth Wall are all abilities the Toads need added. The Toads can make their fists and feet grow much larger. And a lot of characters Break the Fourth Wall Regularly. For example, the game and the characters know when the player uses Game Genie or Cheat Codes. And in Battletoads Arcade, the do consistently punch enemies into the screen. And the Volkmaire feat was a blatant 4th Wall Break as well.
 
> Well, the Missile would at the very least have to have enough power to destroy the Earth, even lowballing it would still be Tier 6 as it would at the very least have to penetrate through the Earth's core. And doing that was 6-C or 6-B? Somewhere around that.

You literally completely missed my point.

The missile's power doesn't matter. Robo Manus doesn't scale to it because he didn't tank the missile's detonation. He tanked the missile itself being destroyed by outside sources before it hit the Earth and detonated. Whether the desintegration itself is Tier 6 via the missile's size, or Tier 7 - likely the latter, actually, since he wouldn't scale to the entirety of the yield, just to the portion of thee xplosion that hit him - doesn't matter. It isn't Tier 5.

> Also, the Ratship still took 0 damage when it crashed through the moon, so by Newton's third law, it would still effect the durability of the Ratship

...Once again, that wasn't the point of my argument. Read my posts with attention. It doesn't matter what the Ratship's durability is. I can agree that the ship itself is 5-A. But the Toads scaling to it is the only feat they have on that level in the entire franchise, and the only feat they can scale to. Literally every other feat they perform on any boss fight is quintillions of times lower than that.

> I also find it hypocritical that you used Mundus as an example when you're the one who upgraded them back to 3-A to begin with.

Yet another point that shot way past your head and that you misinterpreted - the DMC upgrade wasn't even based on Mundus, either way. Sidgail used to be a God-Tier on DMC, which is the whole reason why it got downgraded, because of how vastly, humongously lower his feats were in comparison to the then-sole "3-A" feat. Currently he is no longer considered a God-Tier and this is one of the many reasons why the upgrade actually went through and why the feat wasn't considered an outlier.

This just goes to show how important it is that other God-Tiers have feats on the same level for it to be consistent, which is exactly why I mentioned it.

In this case - one single 5-A feat performed by a Battleship that has to go through several layers of scaling before finally scaling back to the Toads' physical strength, versus every other feat on the verse, such as the Dark Queen's vortex feat, which was calc'ed at 7-C - the Toads tanking it then being another feat, and Robo Manus' body throw at Tier 7, which I will grant you is not necessarily a low-end in and out of itself, but, guess what? The feat that you were claiming to be 5-A about Robo-Manus surviving the missile? That will most likely come out to be Tier 7 once calculated by someone, due to the reasons I mentioned above. And the Toads pretty clearly believed that such an explosion was enough to finish off Robo-Manus. So that's yet another Tier 7 feat. So the verse is way more consistently Tier 7 and city-wide in general than it is Tier 5.

> As for Robo-Manus again; again, Robo-Manus has very consistently piloted those same planet busting missiles to destroy other planets. That's pretty much the primary method of Robo-Manus destroying planets. And even when he does, even the detonations of the planets he has destroyed are things he survives regularly.

What he pilots or not is irrelevant in this case. The missile/ship doesn't scale to him directly.

Scans of him regularly surviving planetary explosions? The scans only have him survive (not tank) a Tier 7 explosion from the missile being intercepted. If this were the case, then I'd be more inclined to believe in Tier 5 Battletoads.

I ain't touching the Universal stuff - that doesn't even need to be looked at to know it's an outlier, which you yourself admitted to be the case.
 
This sca shows the missile hasn't detonated, it detonates when it gets redirected at the Ratship with Robo-Manus still being on the very tip of the same missile and it crashes into the Ratship destroying it in the process. So in other words, it was a point blank explosion that destroyed a 5-A ship. And he still survived it as he's still alive in the sequel. Another detail you haven't even read apparently.

So you're saying that when someone splits the Earth in half with a sword with the KE of the Earth splitting gets a 5-A and same sword has a statement about being capable of destroying planets, it's an outlier because his next best speed feat is him swinging the same sword at Massively Hypersonic+ speeds which the KE of that is High 7-C? The Rat Pods deal are simply slight back up feats; but the actual feat is the fact that Robo-Manus actually does tank the missile point blank. And again, this is the same missile the Empire regularly has at their disposal, and Robo-Manus regularly rides on the tip of the same missile when used to destroy planets. Just like he planned to do here, but he crashed and destroyed the 5-A Ratship instead thanks to the Battletoads.

We also never gave input whether or not you agreed with the speed stuff or the additional abilities. And also, the actual calc of the Toads punching Robo-Manus would be more like (5865.4029*299792458^2/sqrt(1-(68315625^2/299792458^2))-(5865.4029*299792458^2) = 1.4244206*10^19 Joules or 3.40444694118 Gigatons which is High 7-A or Large Mountain level+
 
As someone who played the shit out of Battletoads back in the olden days, I can't stress how much I agree with Kep here.

Battletoads is a consistently urban verse in feats, with lower bosses climbing from Tier 8 to a few consistent Tier 7 feats towards the end of the DD crossover and the series as a whole.

Not only that, 5-A Toads breaks the plot and setting of the game. While we tend to discard "breaks the setting" arguments, with good reason, we only do so if there is a consistent amount of feats. Otherwise, we often use it as an argument against downgrades and upgrades as a whole, and this is no different. The game's whole plot is that the Ratship is coming in and then that a missile Robo-Manus is piloting will bust the Earth. The Toads deal with several weaker bosses with tier 8 feats before climbing in. They need to use weapons and other ships to deal with the Tier 5 ships - they never do so with anything that would remotely, remotely scale to their own power, nor do any of the God-Tiers. And Robo-Manus' missile is dealt with by intercepting it, with the resulting Tier 7 blast being potent enough to harm him quite a lot and to make them think that he became junk pile.

This is no different than when we didn't scale Kirby to Magolor back when he was 3-A, and, unlike Battletoads, 3-A Kirby doesn't even break the game's setting and Kirby is a consistently cosmic guy. The Toads scaling to 5-A is really bad.

One 5-A scaling feat versus. several casual Tier 8 feats from lower dudes, casual low-end Tier 7 feats, and then two or so mid-Tier 7 feats from God-Tiers that require actual effort. The consistent powerscaling climb is always in the urban range. 5-A literally shatters it and breaks the powerscaling hard.
 
The fodder enemies all get stomped by the Battletoads, they aren't the primary breaking point of the scaling. It's the same thing as saying ESU Jedi can't be Tier 5 because they destroy mechs from the inside out regularly. Also, again Destructive Capacity and Attack Potency are two different things. And a character's durability would be a general reason to scale attack potency from. Megaman characters don't destroy planets regularly, but they're still 5-A. And plenty of JRPG verses lack destruction levels beyond Urban levels but scale from one or two Tier 5 to Tier 4 calcs and/or Tier 2 lores.
 
> This scan shows the missile hasn't detonated, it detonates when it gets redirected at the Ratship with Robo-Manus still being on the very tip of the same missile and it crashes into the Ratship destroying it in the process.

Your scan doesn't show that. The wording right after about how they tell him to "join" the Ratship in the junk pile implies it had already been destroyed. And the missile isn't shown crashing against anything else in any cutscenes.

> And he still survived it as he's still alive in the sequel. Another detail you haven't even read apparently.

Literally never denied he survived, dude.

> So you're saying that when someone splits the Earth in half with a sword with the KE of the Earth splitting gets a 5-A and same sword has a statement about being capable of destroying planets, it's an outlier because his next best speed feat is him swinging the same sword at Massively Hypersonic+ speeds which the KE of that is High 7-C?

It's more like a special, hyper-powerful sword in the verse performs a feat of splitting the Earth in half that is calc'ed as 5-A, and a nearby ship that was scouting the Earth ends up surviving the split, and then it sends scout ships that end up being destroyed by the protagonists, who fight 7-Cs regularly, with the final cutscene showing one of the main bosses surviving a 7-B blast.

Throughout all this we then completely skip the consistently Tier 7 scaling and just say "they are clearly 5-A."

> The Rat Pods deal are simply slight back up feats; but the actual feat is the fact that Robo-Manus actually does tank the missile point blank. And again, this is the same missile the Empire regularly has at their disposal, and Robo-Manus regularly rides on the tip of the same missile when used to destroy planets

Again, scans. Third time I'm asking for this supposed "regular" ocurrence in the verse. I have scoured the internet and all the sbsequent and previous games don't even show anything remotely similar in their plotlines. Not calling you a liar, but you need to substantiate your claims, not keep repeating them after evidence is requested.

Not to mention that, again for the third time, Robo-Manus riding on its tip would be irrelevant to his AP unless he performs anything that would suggest he scales to the missile.

> Just like he planned to do here, but he crashed and destroyed the 5-A Ratship instead thanks to the Battletoads.

The Ratship had already been destroyed in the previous stage. We don't even get to see how the "missile detonates" or how it is gone, just told to us that Robo-Manus "joins" the junk pile by the end cutscenes. So it's more likely that the missile was intercepted before it could destroy anything, since I am fairly sure it'd be mentioned or shown that the missile hit and blew something up. And it being intercepted is, for the third time, nothing remotely resembling Tier 5 or high Tier 6. At the very most it'd be Tier 7 due to the missile being fairly large, looking a third or so the size of the Ratship which was described as city-sized. So the most we can assume is that Robo-Manus survived a Tier 7 blast via it disintegrating (?) the missile.
 
Anyway, going to sleep soon due to extra work tomorrow, so I will only be able to reply tomorrow afternoon.
 
Wow.

It's just...great seeing this from the other end of the field.

Consistently a certain tier

Feel of the verse

It's like seeing someone argue against my aversion to hax start arguing against hax.
 
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