Battle for 5th Strongest Low 7-C [Alex Mercer vs Henry Stickmin] [0-0-2]

[TheMassivlyUnkn0wn]

I said I'd test this theory!

RULES

• Both start 5 meters apart
• Fight takes place in The Colosseum
• Speed is equal
• Prototype 2 End Game Alex and Cyborg Henry are used (Higher stuff for Henry is restricted)
• SBA for everything else

Alex scales to Baseline Low 7-C (1 Kiloton of TNT)

Henry scales to 2.38109210475 Kilotons of TNT

Alex:
Henry:
The MCU Verse Takes The 5th Spot: 2

 

[DeathNoodles]

Mercer may not be able to permanently defeat Henry due to that Time Manipulation that works even when Henry dies or gets erased (so his time ability works post-mortem, sort of like the Chosen Undead from Dark Souls or other various protagonists from FromSoftware games)... But nothing says that Henry won't eventually make a mistake where, upon being infected by Mercer, Mercer would just use Mind Manipulation to bend Henry to his will and have Henry never be able to trigger his Time Manipulation - I don't recall Henry ever being in a situation where he gets Mind Manipulation being used on him, and having Time Manipulation kick in to prevent it and all.

However, if we assume that Henry uses Time Manipulation in a way where he never gets into the situation of being infected and Mind Manipulated, this will still be inconclusive as Henry can't permanently defeat Mercer based on the abilities listed in the profile.

Even with Spirit Forme, Henry's Reference has only been shown to change the victim in a way where they never met Henry and thus lose power-ups or abilities gained from encountering Henry out of the timeline entirely... But Henry's Reference has never shown feats such as changing the circumstances behind person's birth, rewriting the victim's past before encountering Henry, or make a person never being born/created... So Reference doesn't become much of a factor due to lack of further feats (in order to avoid No-Limits Fallacy) - there's also the fact that the victim are still aware of the changes of the timeline Henry brings them into, along with Henry himself entering that timeline (and leave himself vulnerable to the victim's potential attacks), so Mercer would still be able to fight Henry and infect even then.

TLDR; This is either inconclusive via Henry never making the mistake of letting himself be infected and Mind Manipulated by Mercer (somehow) and neither having any way to permanently defeat the other, or Mercer wins via infecting Henry and Mind Manipulating him into not being a threat to Mercer. However, I find the latter outcome more likely due to Henry's signature clumsiness and un-luckiness (and possibly incompetence) that could result in him making that mistake.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Also, Mercer's base stats are 8-A, not Low 7-C (he's only Low 7-C with Musclemass amplifications), so he doesn't even belong in the top 10 strongest non-smurf Low 7-C tier anymore.

 

[TheMassivlyUnkn0wn]

Also, Mercer's base stats are 8-A, not Low 7-C (he's only Low 7-C with Musclemass amplifications), so he doesn't even belong in the top 10 strongest non-smurf Low 7-C tier anymore.

he was on the low 7-C section, so i just assumed it included his buffs

 

[DeathNoodles]

he was on the low 7-C section, so i just assumed it included his buffs

Well, his base stats isn't Low 7-C. So, regardless of the outcome of this matchup, Henry is free to take that no. 5 spot in the Low 7-C section (since Mercer is not supposed to belong there).

At most, Mercer belongs to the 8-A section with his base stats, not the Low 7-C section. XD

 

[G33kedzinx]

Well, his base stats isn't Low 7-C. So, regardless of the outcome of this matchup, Henry is free to take that no. 5 spot in the Low 7-C section (since Mercer is not supposed to belong there).

At most, Mercer belongs to the 8-A section with his base stats, not the Low 7-C section. XD

What are you saying ? Base stats don’t matter cus there’s various characters with that on the list and he’s low 7c both in striking strength and durability.

 

[DeathNoodles]

What are you saying ? Base stats don’t matter cus there’s various characters with that on the list and he’s low 7c both in striking strength and durability.

If that's true, then why does the OP of that top 10 strongest non-smurf thread say this:

Only the base stats are considered (I.E. if a character has a High 3-A technique but is only 9-A by itself, then the character will only count for 9-A and not for High 3-A). Characters also must be physically in the tier they're being requested to place in. This means having Striking Strength on that level.

That thread's OP straight up said only base stats are considered, and the "also" wording implies that it is an additional requirement rather than an exception or a reasoning for exemption... The OP's wording seems pretty clear-cut to me.

If there are various characters there on the list that is in the list, but their base stats are not at that tier for a specific key, then either the OP needs to update their original post's description... Or that those characters' placing in that list are outdated and needs to be removed since the OP's wording on the requirement of base stats seems quite clear-cut to me.

 

[G33kedzinx]

If that's true, then why does the OP of that top 10 strongest non-smurf thread say this:

That thread's OP straight up said only base stats are considered, and the "also" wording implies that it is an additional requirement rather than an exception or a reasoning for exemption... The OP's wording seems pretty clear-cut to me.

If there are various characters there on the list that is in the list, but their base stats are not at that tier for a specific key, then either the OP needs to update their original post's description... Or that those characters' placing in that list are outdated and needs to be removed since the OP's wording on the requirement of base stats seems quite clear-cut to me.

Fair enough

 

[Robo432343]

Incon FRA

 

[TheMassivlyUnkn0wn]

I'll count incon votes later but I do have plans to argue for henry

 

[G33kedzinx]

Mercer may not be able to permanently defeat Henry due to that Time Manipulation that works even when Henry dies or gets erased (so his time ability works post-mortem, sort of like the Chosen Undead from Dark Souls or other various protagonists from FromSoftware games)... But nothing says that Henry won't eventually make a mistake where, upon being infected by Mercer, Mercer would just use Mind Manipulation to bend Henry to his will and have Henry never be able to trigger his Time Manipulation - I don't recall Henry ever being in a situation where he gets Mind Manipulation being used on him, and having Time Manipulation kick in to prevent it and all.

However, if we assume that Henry uses Time Manipulation in a way where he never gets into the situation of being infected and Mind Manipulated, this will still be inconclusive as Henry can't permanently defeat Mercer based on the abilities listed in the profile.

Even with Spirit Forme, Henry's Reference has only been shown to change the victim in a way where they never met Henry and thus lose power-ups or abilities gained from encountering Henry out of the timeline entirely... But Henry's Reference has never shown feats such as changing the circumstances behind person's birth, rewriting the victim's past before encountering Henry, or make a person never being born/created... So Reference doesn't become much of a factor due to lack of further feats (in order to avoid No-Limits Fallacy) - there's also the fact that the victim are still aware of the changes of the timeline Henry brings them into, along with Henry himself entering that timeline (and leave himself vulnerable to the victim's potential attacks), so Mercer would still be able to fight Henry and infect even then.

TLDR; This is either inconclusive via Henry never making the mistake of letting himself be infected and Mind Manipulated by Mercer (somehow) and neither having any way to permanently defeat the other, or Mercer wins via infecting Henry and Mind Manipulating him into not being a threat to Mercer. However, I find the latter outcome more likely due to Henry's signature clumsiness and un-luckiness (and possibly incompetence) that could result in him making that mistake.

I do not know if you’re the one who did the pages but the supreme hunter being said to be massively stronger than Mercer is a complete lie and shady. He snuck up on Mercer to grab him and the same overpowered supreme hunter still gets killed and Regen negated easily by Mercer. None of that is even listed in mercers prototype 1 key endgame key. Seems shady as hell to me.

 

[Deceived3596]

That thread's OP straight up said only base stats are considered, and the "also" wording implies that it is an additional requirement rather than an exception or a reasoning for exemption... The OP's wording seems pretty clear-cut to me.

"Base Stats" aren't supposed to be considered as stats that characters have on a basic level. It's more so a preclusion of non-physical stats being used for tiering purposes on the list. It could've been worded more well, but since I started running the list after the previous one was closed, I just haven't switched up the wording. But this has been clarified by me countless times on the thread itself. If you can amplify your physical stats, specifically striking strength, to that tier. You're capable of residing in that tier, on the list.

As for the "also." It was just made so people understand that what is important for tiering on the list isn't exactly AP, but rather your physical striking strength. You must be on that level physically, not just having it through energy blasts or other unphysical techniques.

 

[Psychomaster35]

TLDR; This is either inconclusive via Henry never making the mistake of letting himself be infected and Mind Manipulated by Mercer (somehow) and neither having any way to permanently defeat the other, or Mercer wins via infecting Henry and Mind Manipulating him into not being a threat to Mercer. However, I find the latter outcome more likely due to Henry's signature clumsiness and un-luckiness (and possibly incompetence) that could result in him making that mistake.

Henry's clumsy, yeah. However, even the slightest fail can just encourage him to retry back to an earlier point to try other options until he can finally win. And while his luck is sometimes bad, it can also be sometimes good.

That being said, Alex doesn't have a way to defeat Henry at all, as Henry can retry from all 4 possible winning methods (KO, Death, Incapacitation, and BFR), whereas Henry can eventually get lucky enough to pull the correct option Alex has no resistance to in order to win.

 

[TheMassivlyUnkn0wn]

I will say now that I do plan to rework henry a bit (give him the few abilities he's missing and give him the list formatting) but those won't matter much to this specific mu

 

[DeathNoodles]

Henry's clumsy, yeah. However, even the slightest fail can just encourage him to retry back to an earlier point to try other options until he can finally win. And while his luck is sometimes bad, it can also be sometimes good.

Doesn't change the fact that clumsiness is a core part of Henry's character, and Henry being sometimes lucky doesn't necessarily mean that his bad luck could cost him the fight in a matchup if his Time Manipulation doesn't trigger in time. All Henry is need is one unlucky moment, just one clumsy mistake of him not being able to use Time Manipulation in time, and he gets infected and mind-haxed by Mercer. As far as I am aware, Henry has no feats for his Time Manipulation working when he gets mind-haxed (it only activates either right before death, or right after he dies. I have yet to seen a feat where it activates when he gets mind-haxed for example).

That being said, Alex doesn't have a way to defeat Henry at all, as Henry can retry from all 4 possible winning methods (KO, Death, Incapacitation, and BFR), whereas Henry can eventually get lucky enough to pull the correct option Alex has no resistance to in order to win.

Let me stop you right there:

How could Henry even achieve any of such methods against Mercer's inhuman physiology and regeneration (and resistance to some of these abilities, or adapting to them with Reactive Evolution)?


Victory by KO? That is not feasible due to Mercer's Type 2 Immortality and sheer inhuman physiology, which allows him to move and operate even with his brain being destroyed, so knocking Mercer to unconsciousness by conventional means is unfeasible.

Victory by Death? There is no ability listed in Henry's profile that can allow him to permanently kill Mercer. Deconstruction and Transmutation? Mercer has resistance to those two abilities, and unless Henry's Deconstruction or Transmutation is explicitly stated or described to work at the atomic-level or greater, Henry is not going to be able to overcome Mercer's resistance to those two abilities (in the case of Transmutation, unless Henry decides to weaken or heavily batter Mercer, even Transmutation via Leaf Mode would not necessarily work. And if Henry tries to go up and personal to physically attack Mercer, he would risk either getting absorbed by Mercer or, in the likelier case, being infected by Mercer via gasses).

Victory by Incapacitation? Any of Henry's possible incapacitation methods with the abilities listed in his profile are not going to work. Sleep Manipulation via Tranquillizers? Mercer either adapts to that (especially due to Sleep Manipulation being biological via tranquillizers, and Mercer deals with biological capabilities/attacks all the time), or it might not even work at all due to Mercer having Type 3 Self-Sustenance (which grants resistance to Sleep Manipulation that lacks feats of affecting characters with Type 3 Self-Sustenance).

Any possible incapacitation methods from Henry's abilities either don't work, or they just plain backfire on him like that Paralysis Inducement with his boomerang (which Mercer could either easily block with his Shield ability or just plain resist it due to his sheer inhuman physiology making the Boomerang hitting his head not being effective at all... Since, you know, Mercer can easily operate even with his brain not being intact).

Victory by BFR? The only abilities listed with "BFR", Henry uses with Spirit Forme with his Reference... Which isn't going to be that effective of a BFR method because Henry is also going to travel to the same timeline he BFRs his victim to, so BFR isn't really going to be valid when Henry himself is also there and is still left vulnerable to Mercer's infection and mind-hax.

Also, Mercer does have a way to defeat Henry... And that's by infecting him and mind-haxing Henry into not being a threat, since I have yet to see a feat where Henry's Time Manipulation triggers after he gets Mind Manipulation used on him.

"Base Stats" aren't supposed to be considered as stats that characters have on a basic level. It's more so a preclusion of non-physical stats being used for tiering purposes on the list. It could've been worded more well, but since I started running the list after the previous one was closed, I just haven't switched up the wording. But this has been clarified by me countless times on the thread itself. If you can amplify your physical stats, specifically striking strength, to that tier. You're capable of residing in that tier, on the list.

As for the "also." It was just made so people understand that what is important for tiering on the list isn't exactly AP, but rather your physical striking strength. You must be on that level physically, not just having it through energy blasts or other unphysical techniques.

You should start changing the wording then. Because that's only going to confuse any potential new users that goes into your thread.

Also, not everyone is going to have the time to surf through potentially around 110 pages of posts to get to your clarifications, so changing your wording would've saved a lot of time for many users looking at your thread.

I do not know if you’re the one who did the pages but the supreme hunter being said to be massively stronger than Mercer is a complete lie and shady. He snuck up on Mercer to grab him and the same overpowered supreme hunter still gets killed and Regen negated easily by Mercer. None of that is even listed in mercers prototype 1 key endgame key. Seems shady as hell to me.

I don't see how that's shady when that's what the Prima Guide states... So, if Word of God states that the Supreme Hunter (or Supreme Hybrid in the end-game) is "much more powerful" than Mercer, then that's exactly what it suggests - having much greater raw strength does not necessarily mean that someone with much less raw strength than you could not defeat you with superior skill... Which was exactly what happened when Mercer defeated Supreme Hunter, which the Prima Guide states was due to "an exercise in patience" - this was shown when, after the battle is concluding, the Supreme Hybrid (who was distracted by the blood loss of his damaged arm) got decapitated by Mercer while being distracted in that cutscene... Being physically much stronger than someone does not necessarily mean that someone can't defeat you, especially if that someone is more skilled (and possibly more experienced) than you are.

As for killing Supreme Hybrid feat not being listed in Mercer's Prototype 1 End-game Key... We simply forgot to add that as a feat. We are only humans, so mistakes like that can happen due to our fallibility.