Batman Ability Additions

[Transcending]

This CRT is made to make 3 changes for Batman.

Pages for reference- Post-Flashpoint/Post-Crisis.

Legend- PF=Post-Flashpoint and PC=Post-Crisis.

1: Teleportation

So in Batman: The Murder Machine, Cyborg commented on how Batman can teleport and in Deathstroke #32, Batman actually teleported himself. So he should get Teleportation in his PF version. Pretty simple.

EDIT: So people are making the argument that the JL Teleporter isn't part of Batman's standard gear, but even if that is the case, Batman has other teleporters (Superman: Unchained #6) he can use to teleport to his Batcaves(Dark Days: The Forge #1). So he should still get Teleportation.

END OF EDIT.

Has been accepted!

2: Upgrade

This has to do with Richard Dragon, who, while stronger and faster than Bronze Tiger, shouldn't be overwhelmingly so(Richard Dragon #1). Batman has stalemated a slightly sloppy Bronze Tiger(Suicide Squad 1987 #62), and once even defeated him(Outsiders #50).

So Batman's PC version should either be possibly/likely 8-C or a solid 8-C

3: Dividing into two keys
.
In Batman: Troika, Bruce became stronger than before(Batman Secret Files and Origins #1), even getting a new suit(Batman #515). After this point, the magnitude of Batman's feats also increased by a lot. For example, Pre-Troika, Batman struggled with a weakened KGBeast(Batman #418) while Post-Troika, Batman stomped him(Batman/Wildcat #3) multiple times(Batman: Blackgate- Isle of Men #1). Another good example is Killer Croc, who, Pre-Troika, had the advantage over Batman(Batman #358) and even nearly beat him(Batman #359) while Post-Troika, Batman(Batman 90-Page Giant Issue (1998) #2) casually(Hitman #3) beat(Batman: Gotham After Midnight #7) him(Batman: Gotham Knights #3)multiple times(Resurrection Man (1997) #7).

So I think it's made clear Batman had a power boost after Troika, and hence dividing his PC profile into "Pre-Troika" and "Post-Troika" makes sense to me.


Agree(Keys)- 4(1 staff)

 

[Divini]

was asked to reply here so here i am lul
teleportation look good

i dont read much dc but tier and keys look ok to me

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Everything seems to add up to me.

 

[LordTracer]

This has to do with Richard Dragon, who, while stronger and faster than Bronze Tiger, shouldn't be overwhelmingly so(Richard Dragon #1). Batman has stalemated a slightly sloppy Bronze Tiger(Suicide Squad 1987 #62), and once even defeated him(Outsiders #50).

So Batman's PC version should either be possibly/likely 8-C or a solid 8-C

Richard Dragon’s solo run doesn’t fit into Post-Crisis canon, completely contradicts Dragon’s pre-established history and isn’t even acknowledged outside of one issue of Birds of Prey. It shouldn’t be used for scaling.

Also all 8-C stats come from upscaling from Batman’s own 9-A+ calc (which comes from Detective Comics Vol. 1 #843, June 2007, so it’s Post-Troika). Batman himself cannot be 8-C when he is the source of the 9-A+ scaling.

 

[LordTracer]

And yes, I know Dragon’s page currently uses stuff from his solo run, I plan on changing that soon.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I see....

 

[Confluctor]

Post flashpoint stuff seems fine

 

[Transcending]

Richard Dragon’s solo run doesn’t fit into Post-Crisis canon, completely contradicts Dragon’s pre-established history and isn’t even acknowledged outside of one issue of Birds of Prey. It shouldn’t be used for scaling.

Oh my bad then, since Richard's profile had some things from his solo run I thought it was canon. The upgrade can be cancelled then.

But what do you think of Teleportation and the division into keys?

 

[Transcending]

Post flashpoint stuff seems fine

What do you think of dividing PC into multiple keys?

 

[Confluctor]

I don't mind dividing him into eras. But I am not sure if these values are reliable

 

[Transcending]

I don't mind dividing him into eras. But I am not sure if these values are reliable

Values?

 

[Confluctor]

Ap Values

 

[Transcending]

Ap Values

But you agree with the overall conclusion right? Can I add your agreement?

 

[Confluctor]

Aye

 

[LordTracer]

But what do you think of Teleportation and the division into keys?

In both scans, Batman is only able to teleport via the Justice League teleporter, not any of his of own gadgets. Plus the first scan is from a different universe and we can’t cross-scale those.

And as for the key split… as a concept, sure, the feats line up, but some of the logic seems a bit shaky.

Bruce became stronger than before(Batman Secret Files and Origins #1)

This says that Bruce has a stronger arsenal, aka equipment, not that Bruce himself got stronger.

And then there’s another problem. A problem that makes the key split basically impossible to apply.

Every (Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight Vol. 1 #187, March 2005) single (Detective Comics Vol. 1 #743, April 2000) one (Detective Comics Vol. 1 #832, July 2007) of Batman’s 9-A feats are Post-Troika. So if we applied this revision as-is, we would have to put 90% of the Batman supporting cast and rogues gallery at Unknown.

 

[Transcending]

In both scans, Batman is only able to teleport via the Justice League teleporter, not any of his of own gadgets.

Why wouldn't the JL teleporter count?

Plus the first scan is from a different universe and we can’t cross-scale those.

No, it's from the same canon, when Murder Machine came to Prime Earth. Murder Machine was able to reach the watchtower and the system registered him as Batman, and Cyborg wasn't surprised to see Batman teleporting in, he was rather ok, meaning Prime Earth Batman could teleport in as well.

This says that Bruce has a stronger arsenal, aka equipment, not that Bruce himself got stronger.

He got a new suit and was able to perform wayyyyyyyy better feats. The suit could have added some power.

And then there’s another problem. A problem that makes the key split basically impossible to apply.

Every (Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight Vol. 1 #187, March 2005) single (Detective Comics Vol. 1 #743, April 2000) one (Detective Comics Vol. 1 #832, July 2007) of Batman’s 9-A feats are Post-Troika. So if we applied this revision as-is, we would have to put 90% of the Batman supporting cast and rogues gallery at Unknown.

Can't we find new feats?

 

[LordTracer]

Why wouldn't the JL teleporter count?

Because it’s not really his own standard equipment? We don’t give teleportation to every member of the Justice League because they can access the teleporter.

and Cyborg wasn't surprised to see Batman teleporting in, he was rather ok, meaning Prime Earth Batman could teleport in as well.

Well, yeah… because he’s a Justice League member… so he has access to the teleporter.

Can't we find new feats?

Sure, if you want to go through all of Batman’s Pre-Troika comics to look for feats.

 

[The_Impress]

Meh, not really sold on the key tbh.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Neutral on key splitting. Batman's tier ultimately does come from his suit, but whether or not this remained consistent is my worry.

 

[Transcending]

Because it’s not really his own standard equipment? We don’t give teleportation to every member of the Justice League because they can access the teleporter.

Okay, but he also has teleporters which helps him teleport to his batcaves(pretty sure you already know about those but can give you scans if you don't).

Sure, if you want to go through all of Batman’s Pre-Troika comics to look for feats.

I can't go through them all(for obvious reasons) but I can try finding some feats.

 

[Transcending]

Meh, not really sold on the key tbh.

What about teleportation?

 

[Transcending]

So if we applied this revision as-is, we would have to put 90% of the Batman supporting cast and rogues gallery at Unknown.

Ok so I checked some profiles and most characters are scaled from Post-Troika, only a few like KGBeast would be affected.

 

[Transcending]

Neutral on key splitting. Batman's tier ultimately does come from his suit, but whether or not this remained consistent is my worry.

I have a few more examples for Post-Troika Batman being superior if you want.

 

[LordTracer]

Ok so I checked some profiles and most characters are scaled from Post-Troika, only a few like KGBeast would be affected.

Batman’s own Pre-Troika key + the profiles that scale to said key + probably the profiles that scale to Batman without linking scans would all get yeeted down to Unknown unless we get a bunch of calcs done for them.

 

[Transcending]

Batman’s own Pre-Troika key

I will try finding some good quantifiable feats for him.

 

[Transcending]

Ok, so I am not good at calcing explosion feats, but if someone else can calc, these two feats could be useful:

1: Batman (1940) #437

2: Suicide Squad (1987) #41

 

[Transcending]

There's no objection for Teleportation though, right?

 

[The_Impress]

yeye

 

[Transcending]

yeye

So can that be applied?

 

[The_Impress]

ye, sure

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Hellbeast]

I'd also note after Endgame Batman got stronger thanks to Dionesium

 

[Transcending]

I'd also note after Endgame Batman got stronger thanks to Dionesium

So you agree that PC should be divided right?

 

[Hellbeast]

Post-Flashpoint
I’m open to PC tbh

 

[Transcending]

Post-Flashpoint

Well we can make a separate thread for PF's division later if you want, though I heard currently everyone are discussing whether to divide PF into N52 and Rebirth.

I’m open to PC tbh

So you don't agree with PC/OP? What more type of evidence would you like to be convinced?

 

[Transcending]

Batman’s own Pre-Troika key + the profiles that scale to said key + probably the profiles that scale to Batman without linking scans would all get yeeted down to Unknown unless we get a bunch of calcs done for them.

Ok so I have an idea, but just to confirm, Pre-Crisis feats can be used for Batman correct?

 

[LordTracer]

Ok so I have an idea, but just to confirm, Pre-Crisis feats can be used for Batman correct?

No… why would they be usable?

 

[Transcending]

No… why would they be usable?

I thought Batman's history from before 1985 carried onto Post-Crisis.

 

[LordTracer]

I thought Batman's history from before 1985 carried onto Post-Crisis.

That’s the case for a lot of characters, but we don’t consider their Pre-Crisis feats as being applicable to Post-Crisis.