- 117
- 5
Please alert me when speed is being discussed. 
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Bastard!! Revisions Part 1: Attack Potency
- Thread starter Sheoth
- Start date
-
- Tags
- bastard!! dark schneider
- Status
- 117
- 5
Hey, if I could prove that Darsh destroys things on a 4th D level would that upgrade DKL to at least Nigh-Universal?Sheoth said:
- 168,579
- 77,395
Not necessarily. In reality, space and time are linked together on a 4-dimensional level, so they are hard to keep separate.
Additionally, after talking with DarkLK for clarifications, I modified the High 3-A definition to the following:
"Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP."
Hence, creating or destroying small spacetime constructs is usually gauged by their size, as othervise we would have High 3-A Kaguya and the like.
However, if Hell is 4-Dimensional space, not 3-Dimensional space + time, that might be another issue, unless this scale of power is contradicted by the feats within the story.
Additionally, after talking with DarkLK for clarifications, I modified the High 3-A definition to the following:
"Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP."
Hence, creating or destroying small spacetime constructs is usually gauged by their size, as othervise we would have High 3-A Kaguya and the like.
However, if Hell is 4-Dimensional space, not 3-Dimensional space + time, that might be another issue, unless this scale of power is contradicted by the feats within the story.
- 1,629
- 143
- Thread starter
- #87
@Ant:
It's very difficult to determine. All of the Astral planes (Hell, Heaven, etc.) are said to lie in the 4th dimension.There are also scans earlier on in the series mentioning the Angels coming from a "higher dimension" and needing a lot of energy or a vessel to materialize in the physical. There is also a demonstration of them having some control over time, with Lucifer being able to stop time completely and the Angels being able to move in the frozen time. I am unsure if this is simply some measure of time hax though.
Also, the problem with them being 4-Dimensional is that it would mean that every astral being is that powerful as well. Even the much much weaker classes of Angels. Not to mention the fact that normal humans were able to go into hell while retaining their physical bodies, which is another point of confusion altogether.
It's very difficult to determine. All of the Astral planes (Hell, Heaven, etc.) are said to lie in the 4th dimension.There are also scans earlier on in the series mentioning the Angels coming from a "higher dimension" and needing a lot of energy or a vessel to materialize in the physical. There is also a demonstration of them having some control over time, with Lucifer being able to stop time completely and the Angels being able to move in the frozen time. I am unsure if this is simply some measure of time hax though.
Also, the problem with them being 4-Dimensional is that it would mean that every astral being is that powerful as well. Even the much much weaker classes of Angels. Not to mention the fact that normal humans were able to go into hell while retaining their physical bodies, which is another point of confusion altogether.
- 168,579
- 77,395
Hmm. It seems like this is one of those cases of the author not understanding, or caring about, the full implications of what higher-dimensional means.
We will probably have to ignore it in favour of feats instead.
Alternately see it as all of the 4-Dimensional characters using much weaker 3-dimensional manifestation bodies/avatars.
We will probably have to ignore it in favour of feats instead.
Alternately see it as all of the 4-Dimensional characters using much weaker 3-dimensional manifestation bodies/avatars.
- 11,582
- 549
Hmm. Interesting that Hell and the other Astral worlds exist in the 4th dimension.
Unfortunately, based on what's been said on that, no further upgrade for the characters here i suppose...
Unfortunately, based on what's been said on that, no further upgrade for the characters here i suppose...
- 117
- 5
I think Hagiwara understood what a dimension is just fine, seeing as he often portrayed them as aspects or reality instead of pocket universes like what is done in Marvel often. I instead think he just misunderstood how dimensions are labeled or decided to name them something different in the manga. In our world, 4th D = Time, but in their world, that isn't the case.
Sheoth, I was actually referring to the fact that Eternal Atoms must be destroyed on a spacetime level. Time manipulation is shown on several occasions, so it isn't like manipulating the 4th D is unheard of in the verse. So, if Darsh is Multi-Galaxy AND can destroy things on a spacetime level, wouldn't that boost him to at least Nigh-Uni?
I can find the scans for the Eternal Atoms if you want, I just don't want to go spend time looking if it won't make a difference. XD.
Sheoth, I was actually referring to the fact that Eternal Atoms must be destroyed on a spacetime level. Time manipulation is shown on several occasions, so it isn't like manipulating the 4th D is unheard of in the verse. So, if Darsh is Multi-Galaxy AND can destroy things on a spacetime level, wouldn't that boost him to at least Nigh-Uni?
I can find the scans for the Eternal Atoms if you want, I just don't want to go spend time looking if it won't make a difference. XD.
- 2,631
- 130
Well, I'm aware of what eternal atoms are but I don't agree that he understands what a dimension is. Time is clearly the 4th dimension there, especially if there are time stops occuring. It would be too far to call destroying things on a spiritual level night universal.
- 117
- 5
Time doesn't need to be the 4th D there at all. They never refer to it as such, and there is nothing that means that time definitionally must be the 4th D in all verses. Dimensions in Bastard!! are aspects of reality, just like time. The Astral Plane being the 4th D simply means that it is the aspect of reality that was asigned that number, as confusing as that decision might be. Time is still a seperate but directly connected aspect of reality within the verse.Alakabamm said:
The Bastard!!verse is a verse with more aspects of reality than our traditional Minkowski space . To cut short a very long comment, to destroy the Bastard!! universe would take much higher dimensional manipulation than to destroy our own. You can destroy 4 dimensions in the Bastard!!verse and still have a universe (no matter how damaged) left at the end of it. However, our traditional energy scale would consider destroying 4 D on a universal scale to be Universal. DKL can do that, so it should logically follow that, while incapable of destroying his own verse, he can destroy ours. Thus, he is Universal.
- 2,631
- 130
By our system and by the fact that time exists in the Bastard verse - yes, it must be the 4th dimension. Not even arguable. Whatever astral plane you are referencing is not considered a dimension in the same respect that extra dimensional space wouldn't be.
You are taking the usage of "astral plane" in Bastard and amplifying it to an absurd degree.
You are taking the usage of "astral plane" in Bastard and amplifying it to an absurd degree.
- 117
- 5
@Alakabamm You aren't understanding something. By OUR system of meassuring dimensions, it is the fourth. However, that is not the case in the Bastard!!verse. Also, I'm not stretching the usage of "astral plane" at all. I'm literally just going by what was said in the series. The astral plane is a dimension, as in an aspect of reality. Our system for dimensions doesn't allow for there to be something like that, but you seem to be forgetting that this is FICTION we are talking about. In fact, anything beyond 4 D, Minkowski space, is fictional because we have not been able to prove anything above that. If you are going to rule out that an aspect of reality could exist in the verse based on the fact that it isn't used by traditional scales, then you are missing the point of fiction.
It is even stated that the higher beings like Seraphs have to lower themselves to just the physical plane to interact with people. They are literally changing the aspects of reality that they reside on. That alone proves that they are at least 4 D, although not in our traditional usage.
However, all of this is an irrelevant bit of information that you have forced into the conversation. Whether or not time has been arbitrarily labled the 4th D in the verse does not pertain to anything we must talk about.
Time is a dimension, correct? We have instances of people stopping time completley, slowing time, moving within a time stop, and destroying beings that exist on a spacetime level. Those are the releveant pieces of information. Now, if you destroy someone with High Multi-Galaxy level Durability on a spacetime level, would that or would that not qualify you for at least Nigh-Universal stats?
It is even stated that the higher beings like Seraphs have to lower themselves to just the physical plane to interact with people. They are literally changing the aspects of reality that they reside on. That alone proves that they are at least 4 D, although not in our traditional usage.
However, all of this is an irrelevant bit of information that you have forced into the conversation. Whether or not time has been arbitrarily labled the 4th D in the verse does not pertain to anything we must talk about.
Time is a dimension, correct? We have instances of people stopping time completley, slowing time, moving within a time stop, and destroying beings that exist on a spacetime level. Those are the releveant pieces of information. Now, if you destroy someone with High Multi-Galaxy level Durability on a spacetime level, would that or would that not qualify you for at least Nigh-Universal stats?
- 2,631
- 130
Higher dimensional beings like Seraphs could squash regular people like bugs if they were 5D. They could crush universes. It does NOT align with our system, at ALL.
Time is not "arbitarily" labeled the 4th dimension. It IS the 4th dimension, like x y and z are the first three, so long as the series shows that they exist.
Destroying beings on a "space-time" level doesn't mean what you think it does. Regular people exist on a space time level, according to you. That's not what destroying time means at all. In fact, because you are talking about time, you are already skipping from 2-C to 2-A, which is not what this discussion should be geared around. I'd advise you to look at our dimensional system.
And yes, this is a huge stretch of "astral plane." Beings are referred to as existing on spiritual and astral planes in many, many series but do not show anything close to extra dimensionality and this case is certainly not unique.
Time is not "arbitarily" labeled the 4th dimension. It IS the 4th dimension, like x y and z are the first three, so long as the series shows that they exist.
Destroying beings on a "space-time" level doesn't mean what you think it does. Regular people exist on a space time level, according to you. That's not what destroying time means at all. In fact, because you are talking about time, you are already skipping from 2-C to 2-A, which is not what this discussion should be geared around. I'd advise you to look at our dimensional system.
And yes, this is a huge stretch of "astral plane." Beings are referred to as existing on spiritual and astral planes in many, many series but do not show anything close to extra dimensionality and this case is certainly not unique.
- 117
- 5
Not if the aspeact of reality they exist on doesn't exist in a normal universe. What affect would destroying an astral plane do to a normal universe of 4 dimesions? NOTHING. What does it do in the Bastard!!verse? NOTHING. Why? Because their universe has more aspects of reality than that. Again, STILL irrelevant. Stop focusing on things that don't affect this discussion.
Really? You want to debate language? Dude, IT IS ARBITRARY. We could have called time the 98th D or the German-Suplex Dimension. It literally doesn't matter. Lol. The concept remains the same no matter what it is called. You need to stop focusing on language and start focusing on the concepts.
No. We destroy on a 3 D level because we interact with an objects main 3 dimensions with no access to the 4th. Destroying something on the 4th D along with the original 3 classifies you for a higher yeild, thus is the difference between Universe and Universe + or however you people choose to classify it. Existing IN a 4th D, time, does not mean being part of the 4th D or having any level of manipulation over it. That is why we can't destroy things on a spacetime level, only a space level. The Bastard!!verse has shown manipulation and interaction with the 4th D on multiple occasions as evidenced above. Destructoin on a spacetime level requires interaction with the 4th D, which is something that literally must be done in order to destroy Eternal Atoms. Again, I am asking you the same question. If you destroy something with High Multi Galaxy level Durability on a spacetime level, does that or does that not qualify you as at least Nigh Universal?
They are said to reside on a seperate plane. That plane is referred to as a dimension. We have seen them display dimensional maniuplation. The dimensions are used as aspects of reality. This is hardly a Bleach or YYH situation. Don't try and equate them.
Really? You want to debate language? Dude, IT IS ARBITRARY. We could have called time the 98th D or the German-Suplex Dimension. It literally doesn't matter. Lol. The concept remains the same no matter what it is called. You need to stop focusing on language and start focusing on the concepts.
No. We destroy on a 3 D level because we interact with an objects main 3 dimensions with no access to the 4th. Destroying something on the 4th D along with the original 3 classifies you for a higher yeild, thus is the difference between Universe and Universe + or however you people choose to classify it. Existing IN a 4th D, time, does not mean being part of the 4th D or having any level of manipulation over it. That is why we can't destroy things on a spacetime level, only a space level. The Bastard!!verse has shown manipulation and interaction with the 4th D on multiple occasions as evidenced above. Destructoin on a spacetime level requires interaction with the 4th D, which is something that literally must be done in order to destroy Eternal Atoms. Again, I am asking you the same question. If you destroy something with High Multi Galaxy level Durability on a spacetime level, does that or does that not qualify you as at least Nigh Universal?
They are said to reside on a seperate plane. That plane is referred to as a dimension. We have seen them display dimensional maniuplation. The dimensions are used as aspects of reality. This is hardly a Bleach or YYH situation. Don't try and equate them.
- 2,631
- 130
There is no astral plane in our universe so what you are saying is pure speculation.
TIME and SPACE are not arbitrary, especially not on this wiki and especially not by this dimensional system. It's a STANDARD. You really want to argue that time and space should be discarded? Great, now reconstruct me an entire system of physics and then we can talk.
Manipulation over time does not make you 4-dimensional. Existing in time (lulwat) doesn't even mean anything. Are you trying to call Bastard characters timeless? That's pretty much a lie.
Eternal Atoms exist in three planes and I am well aware of what those planes are. They all should still exist relative to time, otherwise the entire system makes no sense. After all, to kill someone with Eternal Atoms, you need to kill them in all three phases at THE SAME TIME. Literally in the definition of Eternal Atoms. It doesn't transcend a thing.
No one in Bastard has destroyed anything on a spacetime level, there is only a theoretical feat assigned to Satan and that is creation not destruction.
Displaying dimensional manipulation is not sufficient. Throwing around meme words like astral is not sufficient. There is nothing that indicates it is higher dimensional rather than extra dimensional. And honestly? Astral is thrown around in way more series than the two you talk about.
TIME and SPACE are not arbitrary, especially not on this wiki and especially not by this dimensional system. It's a STANDARD. You really want to argue that time and space should be discarded? Great, now reconstruct me an entire system of physics and then we can talk.
Manipulation over time does not make you 4-dimensional. Existing in time (lulwat) doesn't even mean anything. Are you trying to call Bastard characters timeless? That's pretty much a lie.
Eternal Atoms exist in three planes and I am well aware of what those planes are. They all should still exist relative to time, otherwise the entire system makes no sense. After all, to kill someone with Eternal Atoms, you need to kill them in all three phases at THE SAME TIME. Literally in the definition of Eternal Atoms. It doesn't transcend a thing.
No one in Bastard has destroyed anything on a spacetime level, there is only a theoretical feat assigned to Satan and that is creation not destruction.
Displaying dimensional manipulation is not sufficient. Throwing around meme words like astral is not sufficient. There is nothing that indicates it is higher dimensional rather than extra dimensional. And honestly? Astral is thrown around in way more series than the two you talk about.
- 5,618
- 392
Antvasima said:
Hi! sorry for bother but since DS just got an massive upgrade so could you also remove his loss against TTGL and Pegasus Seiya?
- 11,582
- 549
Kind of a bit off topic Jim, but alright.
- 5,618
- 392
Oh sorry, But Thanks.CrossverseCrisis said:
- 11,582
- 549
Want me to undo my edit and put it back, Ant?
Edit: Nvrmind.
Edit: Nvrmind.
- 5,618
- 392
Antvasima said:
Well no comment for saiya but for TTGL, if he fight against the pre Infinity Big Bang Storm, then he most likely will win, but against TTGL after Infinity Big Bang Storm, then he will lose, but since TTGL will be low 2-C at that point so that will be stomp match.
- 117
- 5
@Ala I am dropping this because of Ant's request, but you are still wrong. Lmao
- 117
- 5
I am simply pointing out that stopping at the request of Ant is NOT a concession. I didn't give to your position, I simply stopped because Ant requested it. If anything, I am being polite. If I wanted to, I could have lashed out at you or Ant for literally shutting down the discussion so you had the last reply. I didn't though. I swallowed the bitter pill like a big boy. However, I am not going to let you think you are right just because I am not going to continue. Lol.Alakabamm said:
- 5,232
- 708
Chill out people.
So, is everything here done and dusted? Can I close it now?
So, is everything here done and dusted? Can I close it now?
- Status
Similar threads
